Ok. I think I’ve asked this here before but I forgot/didn’t understand the answer, so now I will make the answers very simple in the form of choices.
(note: all questions are about actual, legit iron body skills)
Question 1. When a practicioner of internal iron body takes a shot to the stomach, his stomach is:
a. Hard, abs tensed
b. Hard, full of chi, and abs tensed
c. Soft, abs not tensed
d. Soft, full of chi, abs not tensed
e. Other (explain)
Question 2. Some people can take hard shots to the stomach by tensing their abs. That’s good, unless you get sucker-punched. Assuming the answer to question 1 was “c” or “d”, would an internal iron body master be able to withstand a sucker punch to the stomach?
a. Yes, because his iron body ab protection is NOT based around tensing the abs
b. No, because even iron body masters have to tense their abs to protect their stomach
Question 3. If chi flow is restricted by muscle tension, why does it appear like iron body guys tense their bodies before they take a strike?
a. They tense their bodies before the take a strike because you need hard muscles to protect yourself. This isn’t chi, it’s physics.
b. Tensing the muscles locks the chi in place (or something)
c. They only tense their muscles to warm up. When being hit their muscles are not tensed.
d. They don’t tense their muscles, you must be seeing things
e. Other (explain)
Alright. Please follow my question and answer format so I don’t get confused this time.
Please keep in mind that my Iron Body experience is VERY limited, so what I will present with you here is anecdotal evidence only.
As to question one…B but perhaps E. I’ll explain. Before I studied any Iron Body techniques myself, I went to one of those Shaolin Monk shows in San Francisco, I believe this was in 1995 or 96. I was in the front row so when they asked for “three strong men” I was first on stage! The monk was going to let us hit him closed-fisted in the abdomen. The other 2 guys went first, and we got three punches each, for a total 9 punches. He did his prep, then stood in front of us with his arms above his head. The other 2 guys went first…they were both bigger than me and I thought, cool it’ll soften him up for me and everyone will be impressed I drilled a monk. The other 2 hit with seemingly no effect, then my turn…I got in a stance and hit him about 50% power. His abs felt hard but not shockingly so. The host said to hit harder. So I did, about 75%…still nothing. So I ****ed back, lowered my stance a bit and unleashed a full force punch with kiai and all…it felt like I hit a wall and my wrist felt like it was dislocated and my arm trembled. Take it as you will. After the show people were asking me what it felt like since I “had hit him the hardest”. Having had a powerlifter in class in my old karate days I know what hard abs feel like. This was different.
Question 2 - not sure about this one…in the internal style I learn, we hold certain positions that give us Iron Body through tense tendons, not muscles…the muscles should be relaxed. But again, with limited study in this area, I’m not much help.
Question 3 - again, not much help here I am afraid. I can tell you that in the positions I mentioned above, my teacher has hit me with closed fist strikes all over my body and it didn’t hurt. I’ve taken hits from a couple of Wushu Chik’s students too during a demo of it and they couldn’t hurt me. I wasn’t tensing muscularly.
My experience is even more limited, but I’ll give it a shot based on what I’ve observed:
– b.. – The abs are tensed, but the rest of the body is relaxed and rooted to allow chi to circulate. The practicioner is able to react to attacks from different sides without being tense all over.
– b. – IMO you have to be prepared to take the punch, no matter how much training you have. For example, Houdini used to let people punch him in the stomach as hard as they could, then one day a guy sucker-punched him and ruptured his appendix. I think iron body training just makes it easier to tense the muscles and take the punch.
– a. and maybe b. – because I think chi’s effects happen because of physics, not in spite of them. (working within natural laws, etc.) The practicioner stays relaxed until the punch is on its way and then tenses his muscles, ideally, a split second before contact. (They could also call it ‘focusing the chi,’ but the muscles do tense up.)
Real iron body doesn’t look like juko kai, you should be rooted so no one has to catch you after you’re hit, and your eyes don’t pop out of your head as you tense up.
There was a short segment between the goju-ryu guy and juko-kai where a japanese master was breaking 2x4s on this kid’s body – chest, stomach, arms, legs – and the student didn’t even blink. That’s more like iron body.
My Hard Qigong training is very limited also, but i’ll try my best to answer…
Question 1: I would say maybe B or E… from what i understand the muscles are not forcefully tensed (like when you’re on the Can ;)) but are still hard. Maybe some breathing or focus is used also?
Question 2: i would say A. If you’ve been training a long time, as soon as something hits you, you should kinda ‘boot up’ wherever it is needed. But who knows how long that will take. My Sifu for example has a very dense body, so hitting him even without focussing would probably have very little effect (if i did it anyway)
Question 3: not too much help there i’m afraid… i don’t know too much of the theory involved right now. for me it’s more a case of do this and this happens
But there are many different methods of training, some use forms, others use seperate exercises etc.
Anyway, interesting topic. Maybe some others with more experience can help explain things…
The concept is the ability to disperse energy. What you want to avoid is tensing right after the strike and therefore trapping the energy inside you. D is better if your Iron Body reverses Ging because more ging will flow into your opponent.
Question 2 - A
Question 3 - E
Human nature. The hardest thing to learn is to remain relaxed when someone strikes you. Iron Body is best when sucker punched and you don’t know its coming.
Go visit a competent internal school and ask then, it’s not a big deal. Reverse breathing can be used to take the force analogous to how muscular tension is used.
My sifu has 2 forms of iron body. When you punch him in the stomach, one feels like you are hitting a tyre while the other feels like you are hitting a pillow.
A few years ago I received a full power strike to the head, with a bladed weapon, while learning a 2 man form. If I had not been practicing chi, I would be dead. The weapon did fall apart about an hour later.
This doesn’t make me an expert ( I am far from it). My experience and observations arrive at the following:
The more chi you have, the less tension you need. When your chi is full, tensing will drive the chi from the area being tensed. When the chi is insufficient tensing will trap the chi in the area being tensed.
After I submitted it, a memory came to me of when I was five years old in the doctor’s office about to receive an injection. I was generating so much hysterical energy (out of fear) that the tension I created in my arm was strong enough to keep the needle from piercing my skin. The needle broke!! My oldest sister had a similar experience with a buttock injection as a child. The needle bent in that case.
It may simply depend on the type of chi cultivation being used.
Originally posted by joedoe My sifu has 2 forms of iron body. When you punch him in the stomach, one feels like you are hitting a tyre while the other feels like you are hitting a pillow.
What if you stomp on his foot or push him first? Does his iron body work when he’s actually fighting, or does he demonstrate it only with a cooperative partner?
Show me a man who can withstand full force strikes under duress, and I will be more than glad to forget everything I know and become his disciple.
Has anyone ever seen iron body demonstrated in anything other than an extremely controlled environment?
Oh and as for the weapon to head thing…was it combat steel, or chrome plated garbage? A real blade with suffficient force would have cut the head like an ax would a coconut.
Mike
What if you stomp on his foot or push him first? Does his iron body work when he’s actually fighting, or does he demonstrate it only with a cooperative partner?
Show me a man who can withstand full force strikes under duress, and I will be more than glad to forget everything I know and become his disciple.
Has anyone ever seen iron body demonstrated in anything other than an extremely controlled environment?
Oh and as for the weapon to head thing…was it combat steel, or chrome plated garbage? A real blade with suffficient force would have cut the head like an ax would a coconut.
Mike [/B]
The monk was going to let us hit him closed-fisted in the abdomen. The other 2 guys went first, and we got three punches each, for a total 9 punches. He did his prep, then stood in front of us with his arms above his head. The other 2 guys went first…they were both bigger than me and I thought, cool it’ll soften him up for me and everyone will be impressed I drilled a monk. The other 2 hit with seemingly no effect, then my turn…I got in a stance and hit him about 50% power. His abs felt hard but not shockingly so. The host said to hit harder. So I did, about 75%…still nothing. So I ****ed back, lowered my stance a bit and unleashed a full force punch with kiai and all…it felt like I hit a wall and my wrist felt like it was dislocated and my arm trembled. Take it as you will. After the show people were asking me what it felt like since I “had hit him the hardest”. Having had a powerlifter in class in my old karate days I know what hard abs feel like. This was different.