[QUOTE=bawang;1198187]because i like the culture and deep history of the forms.[/QUOTE]
Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don’t we just create culture and history today?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198189]Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don’t we just create culture and history today?[/QUOTE]
I think of that a lot…I’m pretty intrigued by original techniques and ancient forms too…but if I develop a form today and teach many students, in 3 generations it will probably be considered traditional…at one point they were all modern concoctions.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198189]Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don’t we just create culture and history today?[/QUOTE]
We are creating culture and history today, but like most fish, we don’t know we’re in water.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198189]Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don’t we just create culture and history today?[/QUOTE]
because i have love for what my ancestors created. its my duty to uphold the culture and values of my people.
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1198210]Forms are more intelligent than martial arts fads.[/QUOTE]
Not necessary!
If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, it won’t take long for you to figure out what you like to do and what you don’t like to do. You then look back your forms and you may find out that you only apply 10% information from your form. What’s wrong with the other 90% of your form? If you will never use the other 90% of your form in spar/wrestling then why spend time to train it?
If you always use front kick to move in, when your opponent
- refuses to move back his leading leg, you sweep his leg. You then use his leading arm to jam his back arm, and punch his head.
- moves back his leading leg, you roundhouse kick his belly. You then jab and cross at your opponent’s head.
Whether your kick, sweep, or roundhouse kick work or not, you get your opponent to pay attention on your legs. This will give you a better chance to set up your punches.
Now you have 2 combos with 4 moves that can map into combat reality without any modification. If you link these 2 combos as 8 moves sequence, you get yourself a new solo form.
- What’s the difference between this new form vs. your other TCMA forms?
- Why such combo cannot be found in any TCMA forms (at least I haven’t found yet)?
- Do you prefer to spend more training time in this new form or your TCMA forms?
- What style should you call your 8 moves new form?
- Does it matter whether you connect combo 2 after combo 1, or combo 1 after combo 2?
- Will people consider your 8 moves sequence as TCMA form 1000 years from today?
- Will you call the new 8 moves sequence have more intelligent than the TCMA forms or the other way around?
Onething for sure is, if everybody train these 8 moves sequence, nobody will say that TCMA is not combat effective.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198003]Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8[/QUOTE]
I guess you need to know the difference between style, art and combat, and what they mean and how they apply to your training.
(not sport which is another category of its own creation)
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1198210]Forms are more intelligent than martial arts fads.
[/QUOTE]
What do you consider martial arts fads?
Why should those outside of China not consider forms as martial arts fads?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198189]Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don’t we just create culture and history today?[/QUOTE]
Actually, whatever we do today creates culture and history today. Moment to moment. It’s helpful to have a long outlook on life, but you also need to hit up the other end of that spectrum for true understanding.
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1198210]Forms are more intelligent than martial arts fads.[/QUOTE]
Wait, lemme guess… :rolleyes:
This is starting to get real old, guys. It’s starting to look like jealousy with a strong dish of excuses. Old isn’t better.
If my assumption is wrong, I appologize for jumping to conclusions. Tell me I’m wrong? Name your pet peeve fad!
Is old always better than the modern?
Here is the old Tantui #1 - elbow strike, hook punch, groin kick, face punch 4 moves combo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TouNy4Rvg_0
Here is the modern front kick, foot sweep, push leaging arm to jam back arm, head lock 4 moves combo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POr5jnJQVns
Will you say that old is always better than the modern?
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1198237]Principle is the mother of technique.[/QUOTE]
Should form be abstract or concrete? The “hip throw” and “shoulder throw” have similiar body motion. Both require to bend upper body down. The only difference is the hands position. If your form has a forward bending move that can be mapped into either hip throw or shoulder throw, do you want to maintain the level of abstraction so it can cover both throws, or should you just map into either hip throw or shoulder throw but not both?
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1198237]Principle is the mother of technique.[/QUOTE]
Should form be abstract or concrete? The “hip throw” and “shoulder throw” have similiar body motion. Both require to bend upper body down. The only difference is the hands position. If your form has a forward bending move that can be mapped into either hip throw or shoulder throw, do you want to maintain the level of abstraction so it can cover both throws, or should you just map into either hip throw or shoulder throw but not both?
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1198244]Form should be abstract. The motion should be applicable to any combat.[/QUOTE]
You may look at this only from the “striking art” point of view. For a fist punch, palm strike, finger jab, your arm will move pretty much the same way. Whether you stand in your opponent’s front door or side door, whether you and your opponent have the same side forward or different side forward, it won’t make much different as long as your hand can reach to your opponent’s face.
For hip throw and shoulder throw, your feet may move and turn exactly the same way, but your hand position are complete different.
For
- hip throw, one of your arm should warp one of your opponent’s leading arms, your other arm should wrap your opponent’s waist.
- shoulder throw, both of your hand should control your opponent’s leading arm.
If your form has a body bending forward motion, without the detail hand movement, no matter how many times that you may train your solo form, you will never be able to apply either hip throw or shoulder throw.
Old, New, both bad
I usually just browse and snicker but I’m getting tired of the same old argument based on misconceptions on both sides. There is nothing old about exacting forms just as there is nothing new about no-form instinct method. Both have been around since the beginning of time and have been the favorite methods of dead soldiers.
Practicing forms blindly thinking that it will create some mystical power is silly, just as silly as assuming that spending years wearing gloves and hopping around with another guy wearing gloves will have any usefulness against a group of home invasion robbers much less in an actual military conflict.
Consider this, the soviet military training used methods surprisingly similar to Bagua Qigung. No inordinate emphasis on forms, no gloves, no “Sparring”. Just simple exercises. These guys went to war and came back alive.
You’re free to take classes and enjoy yourselves. But you need to remember that schools are businesses. They make money teaching you what you demand. Not what you actually need. Some people wants to learn forms and some people wants to spar. Nobody will pay good money to become soldiers.
YKW
If your form has a body bending forward motion, without the detail hand movement, no matter how many times that you may train your solo form, you will never be able to apply either hip throw or shoulder throw.
truth. not only will you not understand the execution or placment of the hands on your opponent i.e above or below the elbow for shoulder throw or where on the waist to grab for the best leverage, you will also never obtain the muscle, mental or celluar memory.
[QUOTE=daiyoshida;1198303]There is nothing old about exacting forms just as there is nothing new about no-form instinct method. [/QUOTE]
No style means you start with application. You learn
- groin kick, face punch because it’s effective combo in combat, it’s not because that combo exist in your form.
- hip throw because it’s the mother of all throws, it’s not because there is a body bending move in your form that look like hip throw.
You go to school. Your teacher teaches you
- 10 moves form. He then explains application for all those 10 moves.
- 10 applications. You then link those 10 moves into a logical sequence yourself.
The end result of these 2 approaches may be the same but the starting points are different. The major difference here is by using the 1st approach, your learning material is restricted by your forms. By using the 2nd approach, your learning material will have no limitation.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1198316]No style means you start with application. You learn
- groin kick, face punch because it’s effective combo in combat, it’s not because that combo exist in your form.
- hip throw because it’s the mother of all throws, it’s not because there is a body bending move in your form that look like hip throw.
You go to school. Your teacher teaches you
- 10 moves form. He then explains application for all those 10 moves.
- 10 applications. You then link those 10 moves into a logical sequence yourself.
The end result of these 2 approaches may be the same but the starting points are different. The major difference here is by using the 1st approach, your learning material is restricted by your forms. By using the 2nd approach, your learning material will have no limitation.[/QUOTE]
culture is not about being “better”.
[QUOTE=daiyoshida;1198303]Consider this, the soviet military training used methods surprisingly similar to Bagua Qigung. No inordinate emphasis on forms, no gloves, no “Sparring”. Just simple exercises. These guys went to war and came back alive.[/QUOTE]
Wut?
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1198315]you will also never obtain the muscle, mental or celluar memory.[/QUOTE]
Very good point. This is why wrestlers have retard strength. It’s also important to train somewhat realistically. Wrestlers are so used to the game that they turtle in MMA when they should roll to their back.
Russian military does application and sparring. Don’t be silly. Do some research.
thanks syn7.
Very good point. This is why wrestlers have retard strength. It’s also important to train somewhat realistically. Wrestlers are so used to the game that they turtle in MMA when they should roll to their back.
if you dotn train realistically you cannot convey the information you have to motion efficently.
the way you train is the way you fight, so naturally you will reult to your dicipline. even when drunken style you have a few LOl