Watch Some Heads Explode . . .
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Bruce Lee was a *******!
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Bruce Lee was a genius!
Empty Cup is insightful.
So is Vash.
Happy days are here again.
phil
I did not mean that literally
yuanfen
sometimes your posts make as much sense as whippys. i speak english not cryptic.
if I want metaphors or philosophy I’d read Bruce’s book one more time…
Empty Cup-sez-
i speak english not cryptic.
(( me thinks-I hear the rattle of a distant cup))
if I want metaphors or philosophy I’d read Bruce’s book one more time…
((That is great-take your time in reading. Practice makes perfect.A collection of lifted quotes is great
philosophy! Finger(s) pointing at the moon in a zenish way.Too bad Ip Man didnt see the error of his ways
in dealing with the jong specially the gum sao–he could have used an empty cup! BTW I think the gum section is fine as is.))
Dummies in HK
Hi Phil! Can I jump into the dummy discussion?
You wrote:
The plans for the FIRST dummy made in HK were given to William Cheung’s brother, who also was a student of Yip Man. I have learned WC from other student’s of Yip Man besides William Cheung. They ALL say the arms should be level.
—The dummies used in Pin SUN WCK, Sum Nung WCK, Chi Sim WCK and Chan Yiu Min WCK all have uneven arms. Every picture of mainland China WCK people doing the dummy in Leung Ting’s “Roots” book features a dummy with uneven arms.
Think about it. Do you do the bong in SLT/SNT, CK, or Biu Jee at a different height on either side? Is the tan on the left lower that the tan on the right? No, you train both sides evenly. /this way you cover the left and right gates on the same level.
—Point taken, but I don’t think the differences in the height of the techniques on a dummy with uneven arms are all that significant.
The plans that Yip Man gave William Cheung’s brother had the arms level. Period. You train your way I’ll continue to train my way as I have for 33 years.
—Leung Ting states in his “Roots” book that Yip Man sent Cheng Pak to “borrow” a dummy from the Weng Chun people to take to a carpenter as an example for construction of dummies for his own students. When the Weng Chun people were unwilling to send out a dummy on “loan”, the carpenter himself was sent to take measurements from the dummy. The “Weng Chun” people noted were the Chi Sim WCK clan that trained at the Dai Duk Lan in HK. A picture of one of their dummies has already been posted earlier in this thread. It has uneven arms.
I’ll post a link to a site unrelated to my lineage where the Sifu mentions that William Cheung’s brother got the paln for the first dummy in HK. No one was using a dummy in HK until then.
—I have seen it stated from more than one source that the Chi Sim WCK guys training at the Dai Duk Lan had the first dummy in HK. It has also been suggested that they may have been the first to suspend the dummy rather than having it sunk into the ground.
—While I agree with you that “too each his own” and that you should train what works for you…and I see nothing wrong with a dummy with EVEN arms, my conclusion is that the UNEVEN arm design is the older version and the EVEN arm design likely a later innovation. If Yip Man himself had made the innovation, it certainly would seem to me that he would have ensured that all his students were using dummies designed this way. It would have been a simple thing to correct an early mistake in a blueprint design.
Keith
The impracticality of constructing both arm holes on the same horizontal plane results in differing solutions and tradeoffs:
[list=1]
Some folks are more concerned about the first disadvantage of uneven arms. Other folks are more concerned about the second problem, where the nature and evenness of play in the dummy (sometimes spoken of in terms of the dummy’s “energy”) is affected. One’s priorities dictate the appropriate solution.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Hi KJ-
I am no carpenter..and the carpentry can make for good and bad dummies.
In both my koosang and my custom made dummy and my first dummy made by my sifu–the arms end up being evn and balanced at the bridges and ends.
While the holes are horizontally at differnt levels-they criss cross exactly at the center of the dummy.
As Phil was saying then there is the placement of the arms.
The square part of each arm fits into the holes with the right “give”. But the front part of the arms are tapered. But the broadest part of the tapered arms are (the circle) is larger than the square pieces that go into the square holes-again there is “give” of the arms up/down, sideways, front/back. But the positioning of the arms are reversed- when done right it compensates for the holes being on two horizontal levels,
so that the arms themselves are even and balanced allowing for the “give”. When I do the tok soa motion- both elbows have the same energy and feel.
I havent been to the Ip man tong- but in the posted pics the arms appear
to be balanced. I was also interested in the spacing of the arms.
But carpenters vary and one can adjust. Ip man himself worked on different dummies from what I understand- not only one. Once one internalizes the principles some differences in shapes matters less imo.
Gotta go do wing chun.
Hi Joy.
My own dummy is built as you describe, and typical construction.
The original pair of upper arms that came with my dummy have offset shanks, as you and I both described and which, when turned correctly, can be aligned almost level with each other.
I have a second pair of arms with shanks that are centered and symmetrical, whereupon one arm is higher than the other when inserted in the dummy.
Only when it was brought to my attention, did I notice a slight difference in play to the different arm types on my dummy; and even then, only when forces are applied at certain angles and in certain ways.
Originally posted by yuanfen
But carpenters vary and one can adjust. Ip man himself worked on different dummies from what I understand- not only one. Once one internalizes the principles some differences in shapes matters less imo.
I agree completely. While anyone may choose to optimize or “tune” their dummy for such training aspects and preferences, any such variations are nits in comparison to the preponderance of other factors contributing to the quality (or lack thereof) in one’s Wing Chun skills.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Hey Captain,
Keith,
Unless I’m wrong Weng Chun and Wing Chun are not the same thing. At least that’s what I hear from the Chinese MA community. Yip Man even said that they are different. So I wouldn’t base the Wing Chun dummy arms on how Weng Chun has theirs. Also, I should have written, the first dummy in HK from Yip Man’s school. There may have been dummies in other systems. I wouldn’t know.
joy joy
you thought wrong…that rattle is coming from Arizona 
btw I too do not think anything is wrong with the gum section…I was trying to point out that somethings in the dummy are used for training purposes and are not as perfect as you have to make do with what you have yet it can still do the job without much difference. i.e having the arms move down when you do the gum or not. Just like having perfectly even arms or not…
btw no matter how many times I ask you to stop with the name-calling you still have to revert to grade school antics. Oh yeah you must teach grade 1 
Really Empty Cup?
Review your own choice of words early in this thread.See below.
Obviously I am a failure as a grade 1 teacher- I have failed to
get you present your ideas well or with much subtlety.
yuanfen
I think having even arms is good. But to say that uneven ones make any difference is a load of manure.
Really Empty Cup?
Review your own choice of words early in this thread.See below.
Obviously I am a failure as a grade 1 teacher as you have tried to label me- I have failed to
get you to present your ideas well or with much subtlety.
yuanfen
I think having even arms is good. But to say that uneven ones make any difference is a load of manure.
I never attack you. You always do that to me under thinly disguised attempts ar pseudo-philosophy. You name call constantly. Always about the cup jokes.
You are a professor. Learn to refrain from getting personal when somebody criticizes something you might have said.
btw, thank you for your concern but it’s very presumptuous and condescending to say you failed to “teach” me. I don’t need to be taught by the likes of you thankyouverymuch.
btw to the rest of the posters here they might not catch certain things you like to allude to in your posts sometimes. You know what I am talking about. PM me if you wish to say something. There is no need for games.
empty cup sez;
I never attack you.
((Aw come on—disagreeing is ok and is one thing. But saying that an opinion is a load of manure is not the most civil way of expressinga different opinion.))
You always do that to me under thinly disguised attempts ar pseudo-philosophy.
((pseudo philosophy whatever that is- is not my bag))
You are a professor.
((I primarily wear a wing chun hat on this forum—whatever else I am is not relevant here))
Learn to refrain from getting personal when somebody criticizes something you might have said.
((You cant help but be crude- can you??))
I don’t need to be taught by the likes of you thankyouverymuch.
((More of the same-poor sarcasm-not much class there))
btw to the rest of the posters here they might not catch certain things you like to allude to in your posts sometimes.
((A theatrical aside?))
You know what I am talking about.
((Not really- what are you talking about??))
PM me if you wish to say something.
((No pm-s thank you))
There is no need for games.
((No games))
sigh
…now that we have an understanding…
P.S.
whatever my handle…it is not relevant here either. Agreed?
keep the manure level phrasing out in agreements or disagreements-and it will be fine.
Re: Hey Captain,
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Keith,
Unless I’m wrong Weng Chun and Wing Chun are not the same thing. At least that’s what I hear from the Chinese MA community. Yip Man even said that they are different. So I wouldn’t base the Wing Chun dummy arms on how Weng Chun has theirs. Also, I should have written, the first dummy in HK from Yip Man’s school. There may have been dummies in other systems. I wouldn’t know.
Hi Phil!
Wing Chun or Weng Chun is irrelevant in this case. The dummies are all the same. Not all of the pics I referred to in LT’s book were of Weng Chun people, and as I pointed out, both Pin Sun WCK and Sum Nun WCK use a dummy with uneven arms. I still maintain that making an offset between the shaft and main portion of the arm so that they are level when inserted into the dummy trunk is a more recent innovation. There are lots of pics of Yip Man working the dummy. All seem to have uneven arms. I would think that if Yip Man thought it was a significantly important point, he would have ensured that the dummies his people were using had been made in the “even arm” fashion. Beware of “revisionist” history. The whole idea of “I have the correctly made dummy and everyone elses has been modified by improper construction” has a familiar ring to it. Don’t you think so?
Keith
Hi Keith,
Don’t worry. I wasn’t going there and I won’t. There’s enough division as it is. My point is that I’ve learned level arms from Sifus not involved with TWC. They all had the same resoning. Then years later I met William Cheung. He gave the exact same reason for level arms as they did. I have seen pics of Yip Man on a dummy with level arms also. The dummy that is supposed to be at his house in Fatshan had level arms.
" I would think that if Yip Man thought it was a significantly important point, he would have ensured that the dummies his people were using had been made in the “even arm” fashion. "
That arguement doesn’t work for people who knew how Yip Man taught. Of course I wasn’t there but I’ve talked to at least 6 people who were close to Yip Man and they ALL told stories of how he would let many things go telling people what they were doing is “good” even if it wasn’t.
Hi again Keith,
I’m not sure if I mentioned this earlier on in this thread, but the plans that Yip Man gave the Cheung brothers in HK had level arms. This I know for sure and have seen the proof. Those who practice with un-even arms more power to them. I won’t, unless I’m doing CLF.
#99
brithlor,
i wont bother to read the other 98 replies, let me give my opinions to your questions.
find a closer teacher, or if not, find someone local to train with even if they are from another ‘lineage’ wing chun is wing chun, lineage is illusory.
2.
pivot as natural, this relates to point 1. above, if you only train with people who do it one way you wont learn the answers, train with as many people as possible.
forget about the street until you know the answers yourself, byb which time you wont need them anymore.
when you are at the same level.
only get a dummy when you have completed first 3 forms or spent about 8 years… basicly when you get to the end of wing chun u will realise that siu lim tao was the most important thing all along.
practise, chi sao, dont use weights.