My Take on "Arts that dont work"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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This is for all the trolls…and the newbs…(even tho im kinda one :smiley: )…and people who are genuinely curious as to why they feel certain arts “dont work”…Maybe this can put the argument to rest.

Every art designed for fighting…EVERY art that i can think of…if you strip it down…has basic elements used for fighting.

Every art that i can think of seeks to finish a fight primarily with a strike or a submission. Every powerful strike that lands in the right place at the right time can end the fight. (Notice i said at the right place at the right time and powerful) So to say a certain striking art “doesn’t work” doesn’t make sense. People used to say this about kung fu to me..i’d say “ok, so if i punch you in the face…that doesn’t work?”

Then a submission move…if it is put on you…will either break a body part or cause you to pass out. Every fighting art that does not seek to strike to end the fight has a move like this. If I break your arm/wrist/leg/neck/cause you to pass out…whatever…does that not work?

What people doubt is usually not whether the technique itself would WORK per se (even though thats how they communicate it)…its whether THEY could LAND the technique themself (or the practitioners they’ve seen). Which brings us back to the basics. If i have trained a strike enough times…and can hit hard enough and fast enough and as many times as needed to end the fight…then the art works…whatever it is. Every art has something to contribute. If it is a FIGHTING art, and it has lasted some time…chances are there are some aspects to it…so that you COULD (in theory) make it effective. This goes for grappling too.

I think alot of people are afraid to train hard…and so they choose an art they feel they can ‘baby’. And maybe it just so happens that some arts that people feel DONT WORK…are just arts that alot of people take that aren’t very disciplined enough to develop much skill. And then THEY are the ones who are noticed, or they become the majority…and so people conclude “that art doesn’t work”…but since when does getting punched in the face, kicked in the nuts or getting a joint broken “not work”??? Just my 2cents…i always seen the statement that an entire FIGHTING ART doesn’t work as a statement given without much thought (or just uninformed) And i was hoping to atleast put that to rest here. I feel every art has something to contribute. Even though i may not like ALOT about a given art.

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I REALLY wanna reply to this, but refuse to type a long reply on my phone. I’ll reply when I get to work…

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Seven, what do you do besides bouncing?

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web site maintenance for the purple and orange.

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[QUOTE=Adventure427;752469]If it is a FIGHTING art, and it has lasted some time…chances are there are some aspects to it…so that you COULD (in theory) make it effective. This goes for grappling too.[/QUOTE]

Regular fighting and sparring is the key to making any art work. The systems that work are filled with fighters who regularly spar/fight/compete and train with mondern training methods. On the other hand, the arts that don’t work are populated by theoretical non-fighters who dance around doing forms, theorize about how fighting should be, and practice techniques that are too “lethal” to be applied full force against resisting opponents.

For fighters (and their coaches) from the more workable systems, the techniques they use are simply solutions for problems encountered in fighting/sparring. Fighters (and their coaches) start with the problems encountered in their fighting/sparring to find the techniques, strategies and tactics that will solve these problems. After finding potential solutions, these solutions are then tried out in sparring and fighting. The solutions that work are incorporated into the fighters’ (and the system they train in) repertoires, while the ones that arent effective are discarded. The techniques of systems that work are constantly evolving from the fighting environment.

Since theoretical non-fighters (and their teachers, who have never fought) are not fighting in the first place, they have no other place to start but with their theories. That is why they have to search out their forms to find the techniques that they think they can use in fighting. Since they arent really fighting, they can never know whether or not these techniques will actually work or not. Because of this, as time goes by, their arsenal gets diluted with a variety of less effective practices and their precious forms filled with unworkable techniques.

Since they they are actually using their techniques in fighting and sparring, real fighters have never had a need to catalog their techniques into forms. Since the techniques are constantly being used and being refined, they are always out there to be seen in the sparring/fighting sessions.

On the other hand, theoretical non-fighters have developed entire systems around theoretical techniques than can be applied in theoretical fighting. These systems are usually categorized into forms.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;752531]web site maintenance for the purple and orange.[/QUOTE]

Purple and orange? the colors?

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Since theoretical non-fighters (and their teachers, who have never fought) are not fighting in the first place, they have no other place to start but with their theories. That is why they have to search out their forms to find the techniques that they think they can use in fighting. Since they aren’t really fighting, they can never know whether or not these techniques will actually work or not. Because of this, as time goes by, their arsenal gets diluted with a variety of less effective practices and their precious forms filled with unworkable techniques.

Reply]
Well said. Also, because they don’t fight, thye don’t have a basis for reverse engineering the techniques in thier forms either…so what thye come up with is wildly ineffective.

Since they they are actually using their techniques in fighting and sparring, real fighters have never had a need to catalog their techniques into forms. Since the techniques are constantly being used and refined, they are always out there to be seen in the sparring/fighting sessions.

Reply]
Hmm, not sure i agre here…it’smore like thhey don’t have a huge arsenal, and are more concerned with HOW to use what they have.

On the other hand, theoretical non-fighters have developed entire systems around theoretical techniques than can be applied in theoretical fighting. These systems are usually categorized into forms.

Reply]
I think that is true in a few cases, but forms are more to catalog and preserve what was found to be effective techniques by Real fighters of the time period. Learning the choreography, and making that the emphis of the practice was never the intent. You originally leanred hte techniques, and how to fight with them first, and then slowly over the years of training, the form emerged by simmple doing each thechnique you know in a series one, after the other to help you remeber all of them. This was especially so when you had alarge number of troops to teach, and you had to provide a large buffet of useable skills because you just didn’t know what technique would best suit each individual out of the thousands you are trying to teach.

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[QUOTE=bodhitree;752534]Purple and orange? the colors?[/QUOTE]

coughFed Excough

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I thought he meant a sports team or something.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;752533]Regular fighting and sparring is the key to making any art work. The systems that work are filled with fighters who regularly spar/fight/compete and train with mondern training methods. On the other hand, the arts that don’t work are populated by theoretical non-fighters who dance around doing forms, theorize about how fighting should be, and practice techniques that are too “lethal” to be applied full force against resisting opponents.

For fighters (and their coaches) from the more workable systems, the techniques they use are simply solutions for problems encountered in fighting/sparring. Fighters (and their coaches) start with the problems encountered in their fighting/sparring to find the techniques, strategies and tactics that will solve these problems. After finding potential solutions, these solutions are then tried out in sparring and fighting. The solutions that work are incorporated into the fighters’ (and the system they train in) repertoires, while the one’s that aren’t effective are discarded. The techniques of systems that work are constantly evolving from the fighting environment.

Since theoretical non-fighters (and their teachers, who have never fought) are not fighting in the first place, they have no other place to start but with their theories. That is why they have to search out their forms to find the techniques that they think they can use in fighting. Since they aren’t really fighting, they can never know whether or not these techniques will actually work or not. Because of this, as time goes by, their arsenal gets diluted with a variety of less effective practices and their precious forms filled with unworkable techniques.

Since they they are actually using their techniques in fighting and sparring, real fighters have never had a need to catalog their techniques into forms. Since the techniques are constantly being used and being refined, they are always out there to be seen in the sparring/fighting sessions.

On the other hand, theoretical non-fighters have developed entire systems around theoretical techniques than can be applied in theoretical fighting. These systems are usually categorized into forms.[/QUOTE]

Agree with KF 100 percent but want to add one thing, individual. What works and what doesn’t can be an individual thing. There are techniques fighters use constantly, (jab, cross, roundhouse, sprawl, double leg takedown) that are battle tested and work, but may not work for certain people because they a. Don’t train them correctly or b. lack of athletic ability or not training hard enough. There is no one technique that will work everytime on every person. But techniques can be put generally in two categories:

  1. Battle tested techniques(boxing, kickboxing, sub grappling)- When the individual trains correctly they work.

  2. Theorized techniques( Emperer’s Monkey Fist Dragon Flies to the sun across the ocean and pulls off opponent’s testacles)- Doubtful.

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I like spinach on my pizzas. anybody else?

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;752536]Hmm, not sure i agre here…it’smore like thhey don’t have a huge arsenal, and are more concerned with HOW to use what they have.[/quote]

do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

[

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[QUOTE=bodhitree;752543]I like spinach on my pizzas. anybody else?[/QUOTE]

so do I. :cool:

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Healthy pizza= whole wheat crust, homemade tomato sauce, spinach, cheese+ goodness

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Does healthy = Macaroni & Cheese Pizza from CiCi’s.:smiley:

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;752546]do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

[[/QUOTE]

Last time I checked, it was one billion and three, but I’m sure Eddie Bravo has invented a few new ones since then.

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[QUOTE=bodhitree;752539]I thought he meant a sports team or something.[/QUOTE]

It’s called not getting fired. Corporations search message boards and blogs for references to their names to make sure employees aren’t leaking information or publicly criticizing policy.

I tell everyone I work for the Big Red H. If you don’t know what I mean, pick up a newspaper sometime.:smiley:

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do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

Reply]
It doesn’t matter, they have them all on the Gracie CD ROM, so they only really need to remeber the few they like the most. I have never seen a UFC fight where either fighter uses more than a hand full of techniques.

Forms were developed back in a time when we didn’t have the gracie CD ROM and the teachers had to find a way to remember hundreds, and hundreds of techniques, so thier students had a good buffet of workable material to choose from. The term Buffet being the operative word here. The FIGHTERS don’t need to knnow the entire systems arsenal, ONLY the teachers need that. They would teach everyone what seems to work best for them, or offer it all, and let the fighter himself choose.

The teachers don’t really fight much anymore outside of thier own students (too old), but they teach the life time of experiance from when they did fight. The thing is, no one ever fights with an entire aresenal all at once, that has been collected over a lifetime. They fight with a small group of techniques that they find the most useful at the moment…and you just don’t need a form to remember a small group of techniques.

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i have nothing relevant to contribute (as per usual)

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;752550]Does healthy = Macaroni & Cheese Pizza from CiCi’s.:D[/QUOTE]

i miss good pizza. i used to live 1/4 mile from a great pizzeria in NJ. in MD most of the pizza is either cardboard with cheese and sauce or dominoes/pizza hut/ papa john’s generic prepackaged stuff. cici’s is an abomination in the eyes of god and should be smote. smited. whatever the word is for that tense of smite. although i recently ate at a place called mama lucias and that is by far the best pizza in the area. reminds me of this place i used to go to in philly.

i was told the pizza (and bread for that matter) in this part of the country is so awful bc the hardness/softness of the water does allow the dough to rise correctly. such is life.

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;752555]do you have any idea how many techniques are in bjj?

Reply]
It doesn’t matter, they have them all on the Gracie CD ROM, so they only really need to remeber the few they like the most. I have never seen a UFC fight where either fighter uses more than a hand full of techniques.[/QUOTE]

UFC isn’t really BJJ. If you go to a submission tournament, you will see a HOOOOGE variety of techniques being displayed.