I gave up on trying to make sense out of Hendrik long ago. But you’re right. I guess I should just give up on trying to make any sense out of you as well. As much as you would hate to admit it, you too seem to be cut from a similar cloth. 
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1268115]RE: White Crane and Lee Kong as presented in the Vid posted …
The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.
Master Lee Kong confirms that this is very Old White Crane, not the same as other 5 crane styles. This set we cannot find in today’s 5 White Crane lineages.
Out of respect for Master Lee Kong, I will not name this set nor say any more about it. It is a family form.
I can say that it was said that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKHYb90lBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq_brh6zas
I hope this helps in some small way.[/QUOTE] :):)
That is what I was hoping to here about the set which is the missing link to the WingChun/White Crane development origin. Many thanks to yourself and Master Lee Kong for this information, and of course the performer of the set.
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1268115]RE: White Crane and Lee Kong as presented in the Vid posted …
The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.
Master Lee Kong confirms that this is very Old White Crane, not the same as other 5 crane styles. This set we cannot find in today’s 5 White Crane lineages.
Out of respect for Master Lee Kong, I will not name this set nor say any more about it. It is a family form.
I can say that it was said that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKHYb90lBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq_brh6zas
I hope this helps in some small way.[/QUOTE]
The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun’s (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity. 7 Bows (7 Stars), 6 Coordination’s, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1268170]The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun’s (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity. 7 Bows (7 Stars), 6 Coordination’s, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting! Thanks for the info Dave!
[QUOTE=dlcox;1268170]The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun’s (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity. 7 Bows (7 Stars), 6 Coordination’s, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.[/QUOTE]
Seven stars is not 7 bows I refer to. Different things.
Garuda is not crane.
Wing chun kuen Xiao lian Tou is a short strike art not a long fist art .
Fujian White crane even the Gm Lee Kong set doesnt develop the fingers details nd medirians similar to 1848 YKSLT which based its technolgy in the e mm ei 12 zhuang 20 medirians system. That differentiated Fujian white crane we with WCK
The key is in the details
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1268173]Seven stars is not 7 bows I refer to. Different things.
Garuda is not crane.
Wing chun kuen Xiao lian Tou is a short strike art not a long fist art .
Fujian White crane even the Gm Lee Kong set doesnt develop the fingers details nd medirians similar to 1848 YKSLT which based its technolgy in the e mm ei 12 zhuang 20 medirians system. That differentiated Fujian white crane we with WCK
The key is in the details[/QUOTE]
They are the same thing, you obviously don’t understand them.
Garuda is a mythological symbol, identified as Eagle, Crane, Roc or several other large birds depending on the tradition. When this mythology spread from Egypt to India to Tibet then China it took on many cultural and religious over writings. Do some more research. Religions like martial arts are incestuous.
Wing Chun is a concept and is not bound by range. Biao Zhi has plenty of long fist technique in it, oh I forgot you don’t know that form, sorry.
It develops the fingers just fine. I gave a hint to this in another thread.
Do you think it wise to fight this battle on so many fronts?
[QUOTE=dlcox;1268180]Wing Chun is a concept and is not bound by range. [/QUOTE]
Worth repeating! Since Hendrik doesn’t train with partners or use his wing chun beyond doing forms, he can’t and will never understand this.
KPM
I gave up on trying to make sense out of Hendrik long ago. But you’re right. I guess I should just give up on trying to make any sense out of you as well. As much as you would hate to admit it, you too seem to be cut from a similar cloth.
Interesting. You state in black and white that you “gave up on trying to make sense out of Hendrik long ago” yet you rush to his defence at just about every opportunity? Very strange behaviour for one who admits that he can’t make sense of Hendrik’s writings. Oh well, martial arts is full of the strange and the wonderful.
So your giving up on me to Keith? Breaking my heart man! 
And here I was thinking you and I had something truly “special”.
Oh well at least we will be able to talk White Crane / Wing Chun without your distractions. I’m going to miss you buddy!
As for comparisons between me and Hendrik … Lol the ramblings of a desperate man (You not Hendrik!). I am vastly different from Hendrik and I suspect you in a great many ways far to many to list here so I’ll mention but a few:
1/. I actually train.
2/. I actually apply my art.
3/. I have used my art many, many times over the past 22 years as a Security Operative.
4/. I have direct links and lineage to China proper.
5/. I teach others five classes per week.
Anyhow. it has been interesting but I prefer discussing things with Palmstriker and David etc. They discuss the subject matter and not the personalities.
Best wishes Keith!
Here is another data point for anyone that may be interested. If you aren’t interested in history, then please just ignore it. I pulled out my copy of “The Essence of Shaolin White Crane: Martial Power and Qigong” by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. Dr. Yang says this on page 97:
Yongchun Quan was derived from Southern White Crane during the Qing Qian Long period (1736-1796). There is a saying that Yongchun Quan was started by the lady Yan, Yong-Chun who learned Southern White Crane techniques from the Buddhist nun Wumei in the mountains of Yunnan Province. Wumei’s original name was Lu, Si-Niang. Later Yong-Chun brought the techniques back to Canton, where they became the Yongchun Fist.
Now, I’m not saying that this proves anything just because Dr. Yang wrote it in a book. I note this just to illustrate that here is one well known White Crane master that supported a Wing Chun & White Crane connection at least as far back as 1996.
Only for those that are interested. Sifu Lee Kong doing some Fukien White Crane:
Great to see this form (SLT origins) performed by Sifu Lee Kong. Thanks for posting. In my own, personal research for lineage roots I am interested in this form as a reference to some of the techniques used in Wing Chun SLT so that I may further understand their intended use. I like to combine both YongChun and WingChun in my practice but also have much appreciation for the embodiment of many styles. * Note how Fook Sao is extended only once (right/Left) and not a repetition of 3 times as in WC SLT. This makes sense to me, anyway. My lineage nicknamed Fook Sao “Little Cannon” many years ago in Hong Kong and the SLT video demonstration by Hung Kuen Master Lam Yan shows Fook Sao used in this way, even though my own lineage does not show such emphasis when SLT form is demonstrated. On the other-hand, the Fook Sao demonstrated by Master Lee Kong shows a flowing “Push-Hands” application which also makes as much sense, combat-wise. I like to use Fook Sao more as a push hand to allow for wrist rotation one inch palmstrike technique, but still like the idea of using the Fook Sao as a battering ram, I do practice Kuk Sool wrist nerve conditioning exercises that would allow me to use it in this way without too much harm. Even to use Fook Sao as a pushing technique you would want to deaden those nerves a bit to prevent sprain if applied. * Exercise: Fook Sao hand position close to body, push with open palm on back of Fook Sao hand. Then, push with open palm on same hand palm to force wrist in opposite direction. If nerves do not bother you, not to worry.
[QUOTE=KPM;1269084]Only for those that are interested. Sifu Lee Kong doing some Fukien White Crane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5BXGjYQ7EU[/QUOTE]
An interesting and good looking form. And ofcourse crane style and snake style influences
are likely to have been historically there in wing chun.
However some wing chun syntheses have gone far beyond the snake and crane
via fighting on the red boats, Leung Jan’s fights, Ip Man’s fights and some of his students and grandstudents
fights and analyses.IMO of course.
Agreed. WingChun is now very much a pugilistic style, maybe even before it got off the boats.
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1269108]
Agreed. WingChun is now very much a pugilistic style, maybe even before it got off the boats.[/QUOTE]
The wing chun that I do is more than just puglism. It has its own way of coordinating the body
and issuing power for piercing, throwing, seizing and hurting…
Systems either evolve or they die ( or get steamed rolled).
While it is great to know some history, it is what they system is NOW that matters. What YOU can DO with it NOW that is crucial.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269110]Systems either evolve or they die ( or get steamed rolled).
Maybe in some cases they are not properly learned in the first place.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1269112][QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269110]Systems either evolve or they die ( or get steamed rolled).
Maybe in some cases they are not properly learned in the first place.[/QUOTE]
That is always a possibility.
That said, we see progression/evolution in every MA that is geared towards actual fighting.
Maybe not in all styles of course, but that is their loss.
Look at boxing, look what it was 100 years ago and look at it now ( technique and training wise) the principles are still there of course BUT it has adapted and evolved beyond what it was ( pros and cons of course).
In MA, the rise of grappling and then/now MMA has presented the opportunity for growth in MA and the best systems will be those that can adapt to the changes and survive.
It is important to NOT forget where we come from ( it keeps us humble and open to change since change is what drove ever new MA to be developed) BUT we must never be stagnate in our MA growth.
Doing so would be a dishonor to that developed of our chosen MA(s).
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1269109]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wing chun that I do is more than just puglism. It has its own way of coordinating the body
and issuing power for piercing, throwing, seizing and hurting…[/QUOTE]
Would like to see it remain so.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269113][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1269112]
That is always a possibility.
That said, we see progression/evolution in every MA that is geared towards actual fighting.
Maybe not in all styles of course, but that is their loss.
Look at boxing, look what it was 100 years ago and look at it now ( technique and training wise) the principles are still there of course BUT it has adapted and evolved beyond what it was ( pros and cons of course).
In MA, the rise of grappling and then/now MMA has presented the opportunity for growth in MA and the best systems will be those that can adapt to the changes and survive.
It is important to NOT forget where we come from ( it keeps us humble and open to change since change is what drove ever new MA to be developed) BUT we must never be stagnate in our MA growth.
Doing so would be a dishonor to that developed of our chosen MA(s).[/QUOTE]
Some similarities and differences in views,
-
Yes- boxing, grappling keeps on evolving for the better. And. kung fu stylists have to learn how to deal with them.
-
However- a controversial issue- there are differences between sportfighting and fighting when lives can be at stake.
Some paths point towards the latter. Most to the former because of the evolution of civil societies. Depending on where
in this world one lives there are broken turfs even in civil societies.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1269118][QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269113]
Some similarities and differences in views,
-
Yes- boxing, grappling keeps on evolving for the better. And. kung fu stylists have to learn how to deal with them.
-
However- a controversial issue- there are differences between sportfighting and fighting when lives can be at stake.
Some paths point towards the latter. Most to the former because of the evolution of civil societies. Depending on where
in this world one lives there are broken turfs even in civil societies.[/QUOTE]
This is the struggle of every martial art. Connect to the past to remain authentic, connect to the future to remain relevant, all while only being able to affect the present.