Guess what? the history can be petty clear now.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Guess what?

Thus, I have heard in Asia …

Since we can seperate History into Two sections: The Events and the Technical.

1, Events History

Another legend surface,

It was said that Fang Chih Nian of the white Crane Wing Chun is the daugther of Ming Last Emperor Zhong Zhen who commit sucide when Bejing was taken down.

And,

the princess was following Chen Yong Wah. Chen who was later Name Chen Chin Nan when he went to Taiwan with Zhen Cheng-Kung and starting the Underground anti Qing network.

Chen Yong Wah asked his follower Fang Hui She to take care and train the Princess. the Princess Change her last name to Fang.

However, the Chih of Chih Niang was actually having the same pronounciation as Chu. Which is the Ming Emperor’s last name.

So, Chen Yong Wah who’s nick name related to White Crane. Fang Chih Niang’s “adopted” father Fang Hui-Seh… all add up.. this way.

Southern Shao Lin at that time was practicing an “older” type of Shao Lin art. later, Southern Shao Lin adopted/influence by FAng Chih Niang’s White Crane teaching. … and some Southern Shao Lin still using the White Crane teaching.

BTW: Chen yong Wah, Fang Choong, Fang Chih Niang all exist in the real world in 1650’s. Daughter of last emperor also exist…

2, for the technical history:

As for Why Wing Chun Kuen become Wing Chun.

from the technical history and methodology ,

a, it is pretty clear that the Method of the training of the "Inch Jing Join power "(which is a trade mark of the fujian white crane. ) was substitute with the Emei’s 12 Zhuang’s methodology.---- snake body which is the core of the SLT.

b, And with the Emei 12 Zhuang’s charactericstics, Wing Chun becomes more “sticky” and more “details” then White Crane Wing Chun in application even though both style are using very similar type of technics.

BTW. This Inch Jing Join Power does influence or Par with WXZ’s Yee Chuan. (Yee Chuan was found early 1900 and Yee Chuan Also influence today’s Oyama’s Kyokushin Kai) White Crane artist had a match with WXZ and par.

Things are more clear now because we can access to the 1700’s Kuen Po / Kuit writing… we can know lots of stuffs and what happen pre Red boat.

Rene,

There are Sets pre redboat. …technically with the data what we have today. we know we are really really close.

http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/nationaltreasure/splash.html

Yup. we go back to 1776 and before… for that key and the map of Keng Geng and Madam YWC which was behind the Kuen Kuit. (needs some lemon juice and negative Ion hair dryer to see them… :smiley:

I am in the dungen somewhere China doing my research … Ancestors love me to be thier messenger… He hehehehehe .:smiley: :smiley:

Got to go into the dungen before my note book’s power totally drain! :smiley:

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a member of the big family

BTW,

Attached is a snap short of the family tree of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. Wing Chun Kuen exists in this family tree.

This White Crane Wing Chun family tree was made by International White Crane Wing Chun people. (china, Taiwan, SEA,…) They communicate and discuss.

So, Wing Chun kuen were view as a member of this 400 years (since 1650’s) big family

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hendrik,
What you are saying has already been established by the research of the Ving Tsun Museum and others. This is not new, news or different than what has already been established. Ving Tsun Museum

  1. The story of the princess is often associated with the Southern Mantis style as well.

  2. David earlier on this forum reminds us not to confuse Fong White crane with Wing Chun. White Crane of Wing Chun County this has nothing to do with modern day Wing Chun and this too is not new or news.

originally posted by desertwingchun2

One does not qualify as many. Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong’s Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County.

originally posted by hendrik
There are Sets pre redboat. …technically with the data what we have today. we know we are really really close.

originally posted by hendrik
Southern Shao Lin at that time was practicing an “older” type of Shao Lin art. later, Southern Shao Lin adopted/influence by FAng Chih Niang’s White Crane teaching. … and some Southern Shao Lin still using the White Crane teaching.

  1. The VTM has previously uncovered proof of all this…
    a. that SNT, CK, & BJ pre date the red boats.
    b. a paradigm shift took place at Southern Shaolin that lead to the creation of Wing Chun
    c. there exist a strong connection between Southern Shaolin Temple, Wing Chun, Secret Societies and anti-Manchu sentiment.

That you now agree with the VTM this is news.

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Canglong,

please read my post again.

You missed my point big time.
and,
I didnt agree with David or VTM,

2, White crane of Fujian has much to do with my Wing Chun lineage and other lineages which is from Ng Mui, (with hard evidents in Writing, structure, application, methodology. )

Perhaps what David describe and address is your or David or VTM style of Wing Chun, and that is understandable and acceptable.

3, what technical and hard data proof does VTM has to make claim?

a, SNT, CK, & BJ pre date the red boats.
b, What Paradigm shift took place at Southern Shaolin? who and what is there in the record of China to be traced? (Such as Fong Wing Chun, Chen Chin Nan, Yik Kam, Fong Shi-Hui, White Crane of Fujian, Emei 12 Zhuang, fujian White Crane’s follower fight WXZ. fujian White Crane’s follower sever the Taiping, Chan patriach Hsu Yun… etc.
all were real things in the Chinese history /record which can be traced from Multi-areas.)

BTW. SNT is a name given by GM IpMan if my memory serve, and the Old name is SLT.

as for lineage of WCK which has connection with Rebels, one must has the secrete Code in 1700 or 1850 which can be matched with Tien Tee Hui or Tai Ping or the Small Knife association. Just a claim in not good enough to make the link. Similar to any link with Chan, without the Buddha’s mind seal and the patriach’s certification, all claim doesnt valid in the ancient Chinese Chan tradition.

As for linking the Southern Mantis, princesss… Well, Both White Crane Wing Chun from Fujian and Wing Chun doesnt have the head structure in common with the mantis. There certainly much much more can be compared such as the Inch power generation.
Beside this is a Crane story.

and you know, Fujian seldom has crane. so why is the name is called Fujian White Crane?:smiley:

Until there is hard technical evidents , I dont think any one’s claim is valid even though they all can be a great opinion.

If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng …etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.

I am sure I am open to listen to the presentation to make this a great technical discussion eventhough I am not neccessary buy your reason.

Until next time I got hold of a web link. Happy New year!

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Hello,

Nice write up/info.!

With regards to south mantis most of the research that has been going on shows there was no such princess but I could be wrong. I dont really look into Mantis much anymore! The link of this so-called princess that some how shows up in many arts history would “more likely” have to do with Fang Chi Niang than each art having a princess.

After a lengthy conversation recently with my old mantis sifu who is living in China (while doing his research) I specifically asked him this:

Sifu! South Mantis is a very young art. It can only be traced back to the mid to early 1800’s. With that in mind I would like to know what are your thoughts of this arts possible links to Fukien Crane?

Answer: Well, none of us were there so nobody can know for sure but it is quite possible that the knowledge came from there and settled/evolved in the Hakka tribe. Why:

  1. White Crane Weng Chun is one of the mother arts of many systems.

  2. The form numerology is the same and also the same as true Okinawan versions of the chinese arts.

  3. The Hakka tribe settled just north of Fukien in Lung Fushan region. This was on the northern edge of Fukien which was the hub for White Crane boxing.

  4. Many old south fist arts (including Mantis) at one time or another were called “weng chun” boxing. This was a generic term used by most but indeed another connection.

Another thing that was said was that we must not forget about Tai Tsu. This is another old art that had influence on many arts. All of course start with 3 Steps, 3 Arrows, 3 Battles etc.. All similar in soooo many ways!

There is an E-Book that will be for sale showing a fair portion of Sifu’s research with nice old pictures and data from South Mantis clan and its evoution!

When it comes out I will let you know!

Regards,

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yellowpikachu say:the history can be petty clear now.

now vtm is involve ‘petty clear’ more than mispell

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

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Interesting work Hendrik.

Jim- southern mantis seems to be ayounger art than wing chun
specially jum restarted in HK temple.

The sifu you are referring to is Hagood(?). We have already discussed the relationship(currently none) with Gin Foon Mak.

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Joy,

Jim- southern mantis seems to be ayounger art than wing chun
specially jum restarted in HK temple.

Indeed it seems to be younger. Yet! They all seem to stem from one source.

The sifu you are referring to is Hagood(?).

Yes. He has been living in China and training/researching the art for the past 2 years.

We have already discussed the relationship(currently none) with Gin Foon Mak.

Not for nothing Joy but what does this have to do with the topic? We are talking about historical data/info. not someones relationship with “one” of their sifu’s and for what its worth I can tell you that Sifu keeps contact with most if not all of his Jook Lum family. Even tho public opinion seems to think differently.

Regards,

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Jim, Joy

Great information.

further into the technical history,

Thus, I have read the research of the Southern Chinese MA,
As for White Crane Weng Chun’s influence, what we know is that White Crane Weng Chun has a big influence on what is called the Southern Shao Lin arts since 1700’s. Southern Shao Lin was influence by White Crane Weng Chun’s art paradigm shift and not the other way around. One can still find White Crane Weng Chun drawing and writing some of today’s Southern Shao Lin arts.

On another hand, further more, the short Limb or Teh Kee ( fujianese ) of White Crane Weng Chun, many Wing Chung lineages from the Red Boat such as Koloo has the signature of the preservation of the Teh Kee art. In Yik Kam’s SLT kuit, it said " within Yau there is Kong. Within Kong there is Yau" is another signature of the presavation of both Teng Kee and Teh Kee. (long limb and short limb).

I use Teh Kee term here instead of Short Bridge.or Kiu..etc to differentiate. Because Teh Kee is more then the general kiu or “short Bridge” or Tuin Kiu (cantaoness) and Teh Kee was well define in White crane weng chun.

Thus, I have heard,
The core of paradigm shift of White Crane Weng Chun and some Chinese MA after 1660’s is about power generation is shifted from “bow power generation” to “string of bow power generation”.
As in WCK saying, others walk with bow, I walk with the bow string. White Crane Weng Chun, Yee Chuan, " various chinese internal martial art systems"… travel this path. which link into Inch Jing Join Power, Snake body, six directional force vectors… boil down to the potential/kinetic energy/momentum stuffs which is very different compare with Limb/structure technics art, since it is operate in the momentum and energy domain. IMHHO,today, this level of art has not much being seen compare with the Limb/structure technics art. Perhaps, it is because it takes methodology and time to train the Kung; and today trend is using logical process mind to speculate theories and theories with personal concious then cultivate the awareness?

another beauty of travelling this path is that one be able to use sensitivity or awareness while in action in a higher degree.

As for the Tai Zhu, that is the older art which walk the bow IMHO. (still great but doing things in a different way).
The Tai Zhu using the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump…larger movements.

The WCK using the Cheem ,Jeet … or reeling, intercept …

Thus, WCK is not the same with the Old Tai Zhu or Shao Lin Type of art.

just another few cents…

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Hendrik sez:

As for the Tai Zhu, that is the older art which walk the bow IMHO. (still great but doing things in a different way).
The Tai Zhu using the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump…larger movements.

The WCK using the Cheem ,Jeet … or reeling, intercept …

Thus, WCK is not the same with the Old Tai Zhu or Shao Lin Type of art.

Makes sense

Joy

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Originally posted by Vajramusti
[B]Hendrik sez:

As for the Tai Zhu, that is the older art which walk the bow IMHO. (still great but doing things in a different way).
The Tai Zhu using the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump…larger movements.

The WCK using the Cheem ,Jeet … or reeling, intercept …

Thus, WCK is not the same with the Old Tai Zhu or Shao Lin Type of art.

Makes sense

Joy [/B]

Joy,

Thus, from the Wing Chun lineages from the Red Boat, the using or term such as Pan Nam’s Weng Chun or Chan Wah’s Weng Chun, That all reflect to the White Crane Weng Chun’s Weng Chun. All these Weng Chun term echo the story of Ng Mui, White Crane …

since as we know now, in 1700’s White Crane Weng Chun influence strongly the so called " southern Shao Lin art". There is only one Weng Chun in the History of China in 1700 which is consider paradigm shift or further develop and leading the “southern Shao Lin” , and that is White Crane Weng Chun.

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Hendrik- Pan Nam’s stuff has hung ga mixed in with it.

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Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik- Pan Nam’s stuff has hung ga mixed in with it.

Joy,

as the art localized evolve, sure everyone mixed something. We can analized who mix what when forsure. As we know, everything is subject to Localized Evolution.

Looking at all of the data on White Crane Weng Chun influence “Southern Shao Lin” (a very broad term), what we can see is that the Weng Chun Tong of Southern Shao Lin Story in the novel is a different way of pointing at the location or place where White Crane Weng Chun where taught.
So, if the Weng Chun Tong exist, within the Weng Chun Tong of southern Shao lin (where ever the location it is, since there are all the dispute still) what was taught is the art of White Crane Weng Chun.
because White Crane Weng Chun directly, solidly, and factually connected to Chen Yong Wah of anti-qing, Zhen Cheng-Kong the general lead to fleet to Taiwan, Ming Ex’s generals, Fang Choong, Fang Chih-Niang in 1650’s.

So,
For White Crane Weng Chun, the core /mother set is San Chin. For Wing Chun kuen, an off spring of White Crane Weng Chun by the opera actors, the core/mother set is Siu Lien Tau.

and again, why Wing Chun Kuen core itself with Siu Lien Tau?
IMHHo, that is because the Wing Chun Kuen ancestors has found/integrate the Emei 12 zhuang’s methodology of training to arive at the Inch Jing join power with further development into Stick, reel, interup, and details such as what the Emei 12 zhuang’s Kuit said " gentlely subdue the enermy, within inch and split of an inch."

as a conclusion,
Why do these above history finding is important? it is important because the technical history has provided us 2 things:
1, it seems that the advance momentum/energy level of art has been lost in general. but there is an advance momentum/energy level of art which the ancestors had attained in the past.
2, in order to uncover/further develop the art of Wing Chun kuen , one can do research within the well preserve White Crane Weng Chun system of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang.

Wing Chun Kuen is solidly root on the shoulder of two of the giant of Chinese martial art system. How great is that and how lucky is WCK to have the board , depth, and a large experience/libraly collections to reference for future development.

You want to know the back ground or the root of internal and jing part of SLT? just get access to White Crane Weng Chun and Emei 12 Zhuang "library. You want to know the back gound or root of internal mind/qi cultivation of SLT which link to Buddhism/Daoism/TCM mind/body training? just get access to the Emei 12 Zhuang " library. There is no guessing work needed very specific and precise answers interm of methodology can be found.

The research provide a solid clear technical direction/ back ground for anyone from any WCK lineage who wants to further reseach in order / development/ grow thier art. That is beyond any single personal/lineage gain/marketing. And, away from the so called " most original, most older, most older set, most older secret grandmaster , gate keeper…" claims which emphasis on title instead of technical facts which can be examined clearly and grow. The research serve everyone and all lineage from he red boat.

The history is pretty clear now in 2004 with solid data. The more data which will further come out in the coming years will be more clearly illustrate and support the big picture we have known today at the end of the 2004.

just some thoughts. IMHHHO.

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What is the relationship if any between White Crane Weng Chun and Weng Chun as done by say the Chu Chong Man lineage?

ie are forms like Fa Kuen found in both?
Mechanics? Power Generation, etc.?

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Hi Hendrik,

Metaphors can be enlightening or misleading, so the context is all important. Without the bow, the string cannot generate power; withour the string, the bow cannot generate power. The bow and string go together, as one unit, to shoot the arrow (step or punch).

On another note, “the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump” pertain to it’s method or approach to fighting (and is related to a longer range fighting method than WCK); WCK’s “using the Cheem ,Jeet” and “subdue the enermy, within inch and split of an inch” (btw, I didn’t know ancient chinese used inches to measure – I thought that was english) pertain to it’s method or approach to fighting (in close one can’t jump about but has differnt needs including short power). I agree that the approaches are different, and thus require different tools to implement those approaches. It doesn’t follow that one approach (“Shaolin” - whatever that means) however different couldn’t have either influenced or directly been involved in the development of another approach (like WCK).

And while you are correct that “As we know, everything is subject to Localized Evolution” it also doesn’t follow that “localized evolution” accounts for all modification, interpretation, or changes in a fighting method.

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Originally posted by planetwc

ie are forms like Fa Kuen found in both?
Mechanics? Power Generation, etc.?

the Original Fa Style is from Sze Chuan of China dated before 1600.

Fa Kuen has become a common name for set in CMA style after 1720’s. Different style has thier different fa kuen.

BTW. “fa” has a general meaning. but every style implement the meaning differently.

IE.
some red boat style’s fa kuen set is Tai Zhu based,
in Yik Kam lineage, the Fa Kuen set is a set illustrating/intepreting a certain technics of the core SLT set.
Thus, same Fa Kuen name but the content and power generation are differents.

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Metaphors can be enlightening or misleading, so the context is all important. Without the bow, the string cannot generate power; withour the string, the bow cannot generate power. The bow and string go together, as one unit, to shoot the arrow (step or punch). -------

One can always ague — where is the bow and string? there is non in my body. :smiley:

On another note, “the old Shao Lin Kuit Such as San Chaan tong Nor or quick step and jump” pertain to it’s method or approach to fighting (and is related to a longer range fighting method than WCK); WCK’s “using the Cheem ,Jeet” and “subdue the enermy, within inch and split of an inch” (btw, I didn’t know ancient chinese used inches to measure – I thought that was english)

pertain to it’s method or approach to fighting (in close one can’t jump about but has differnt needs including short power). I agree that the approaches are different, and thus require different tools to implement those approaches.

It doesn’t follow that one approach (“Shaolin” - whatever that means) however different couldn’t have either influenced or directly been involved in the development of another approach (like WCK). -----------------------

1, There is english inch and Chinese inch and TCM relative inch when doing accupuncture … lots of inch… :smiley:

2, certainly making nail has influence how to manufacturing bullets.
your breathing in the USA influence me in Taipei too! :smiley:

And while you are correct that “As we know, everything is subject to Localized Evolution” it also doesn’t follow that “localized evolution” accounts for all modification, interpretation, or changes in a fighting method. ---------

As a human, I can only see the most 180 degree forward. I cannot see 360 degree. So, dont know how to see ALL when I walk one way. :smiley:

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Just to give another perspective

I think human nature will always be the same whatever if the “saying” was written on a scroll or on a website!..People in martial arts have always claimed many things and invented a lot more.People have always invented their own stuff,based on the other guy’s thing,and pretended to have been taught by some mysterious master on a mountain somewhere.
Just to say that the ancient writings should not be taken as gospel either.
We need time travel if we want the truth!..:wink:

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Jong --!..People in martial arts have always claimed many things and invented a lot more.People have always invented their own stuff,based on the other guy’s thing,and pretended to have been taught by some mysterious master on a mountain somewhere–

and to add none can prove anything when asked to produce real world results !

they just back pedal and answer with a question or a story or some other form of non reality

i guess pigs can fly :smiley:

but is it a chinese pig , a american pig or a space pig :eek:

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Ernie-
There was a flying pig in some old Pink Floyd show!..But my point was that martial arts are full of stories and legends.Those were the marketting gimmicks,not different from today’s internet scrolling!..:wink:
How to see the real stories out of these things?..