Originally posted by old jong
Ernie-
There was a flying pig in some old Pink Floyd show!..But my point was that martial arts are full of stories and legends.Those were the marketting gimmicks,not different from today’s internet scrolling!..
How to see the real stories out of these things?..
the Real stories ahh that would be nice guess we will just have live our own and only speak on what we can really do 
hendrik,
you reread your post.
You are the one who is constantly repeating over and over again always saying its not about those anti -Qing, secret societies shaolin or pre red boat you have so many post to that affect I won’t even bother to retrieve one at this time. Now in an effort to enhance your argument you reference those very things anit-Qing, Shaolin and pre red boat era. You either are confused or are trying to confuse the issue by referencing all those things and which ever White Crane system best suits your argument.
Originally posted by canglong
[B]hendrik,
you reread your post.
You are the one who is constantly repeating over and over again always saying its not about those anti -Qing, secret societies shaolin or pre red boat you have so many post to that affect I won’t even bother to retrieve one at this time.
Now in an effort to enhance your argument you reference those very things anit-Qing, Shaolin and pre red boat era.
You either are confused or are trying to confuse the issue by referencing all those things and which ever White Crane system best suits your argument. [/B]
Go ahead read my posts.
From many years ago,
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/historical/cho_santo01.html
To
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/santo_shanghai.html
up to today
Everything is following the Ancestors’ story with more data to support .
On the existing people in the history.
Chan Wing-Wah or Chen Yong Wah who was linking to Ming dynasty and Anti-Qing and Zhen Cheng-Koong, White Crane, Fang Chih Niang, Fang Chong as seen in Chinese history and White Crane Weng Chun’s history was mention in the first post above.
On Events History,
I have mention : There are lineages from Red Boat who has and still preserve the secret code and salutation of Wing Chun from the Red Boat opera era on anti-Qing which can be verified from the Shang Hai’s little knive society, and Choy Lee Fut Hung Mun connection of 1850’s.
However, this is the event history part which is not supporting directly to any technical history; and it Proof nothing about where, how, when, whom the art of WingChun is from. Some body is Hung Mun or Shao Lin monk doesnt make them by default the master of Shao Lin or the Creator of Wing Chun. There must be Technical History which can link to the person. Not to mention, the identity of such person has to be cleared in written history of China and Chan tradition. otherwise, it doesnt hold.
On the other hand, on technical history,
The White Crane Weng Chun and Emei 12 zhuang technical history among with Yik Kam’s SLT writing is pointing to how SLT was created. there involve the inch jing join power, then details, the Sticky, reel, intecept, qi flow…
All the years, the data from Shang Hai , to TaiNan of Taiwan, to fujian, to Canton, to Sze Chuan across China. which cover the area of the possibilities related on how SLT was created
showing up naturally fit and support themself into what the ancestors told.
IE. GM IpMan, GM YKS’s stories. on White Crane , on Ng Mui, on Miu Shun…
note that looking at the early 1700’s Fong Chih-Niang 15 shih or momentum classic writing and diagram preserve by the White Crane Weng Chun of fujian . yes Momentum not posture. Those in 1650 are talking momentum (Potential/kenetic energy) not limb technics. Thus, if the power/momentum/energy generation process not understood. one is not syncronized with what happen at 1700. But fall into the Posture, limbs technics…
it will be impossible to activate the SLT fully because we are not looking at thing as who they look at it. as an analogy, people then is talking how many horse power and how fast can be generated in thier electric motor, and we are talking the shape of the motor and the shape of the wiring. IMHHo.
Yes, we today can get access to the details White Crane Weng Chun writting on 1700’s. it even mention and explain why and how the weaker physical older age can defeat the young stronger physical age some where.
Please do not get into the mode of shooting at me. because that is not going to get anywhere.
Instead, why not as I suggest before :
If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng …etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.
if You have a great idea and data, present them ; we all interested to know about it. I am sure I am open to listen to the presentation to make this a great technical discussion eventhough I am not neccessary will buy your reason.
There we can have a technical discussion.
Again, I cannot be perfect and erro free since as I told Terence, as a human when I walk I only can see the most the 180 degree infront of me.
But, I tell you what I see, not what I think I see. and there is a different from what I think I see and what I see it is there.
Re: Just to give another perspective
Originally posted by old jong
I think human nature will always be the same whatever if the “saying” was written on a scroll or on a website!..People in martial arts have always claimed many things and invented a lot more.People have always invented their own stuff,based on the other guy’s thing,and pretended to have been taught by some mysterious master on a mountain somewhere.
Just to say that the ancient writings should not be taken as gospel either.
We need time travel if we want the truth!..
I watch the National Treasure in Tai Pei two days ago and there is a saying there which caught my heart.
If my memory still serve on the Movie, the main character said somthing like : We today dont think like those who compose the Declaration of independent anymore.
I happen to be lucky enough to be able to hold and loan 6 volumes of well preserve classical White Crane Weng Chun which zoom across the past 300 years or so. I am really appreciate that they let me see what happen in the past …
Since we can still see the declaration of independent of the USA from 1776. the past 300 years is not that far away to trace.
and I think what was said in the movie is right.
We today dont think like those who live and has to use the art in the battle field in 1650 anymore. We like to think scientific but that scientific itself has become our own trap in many way.
99.9 % of Chan or Zen today is so scientific speculate that it is not Zen at all. Eventhough one can keep reading and writing about it.
The power generation of the Inch Jing Join power of White Crane is counter intuitive… very counter intuitive… and that is the beauty of it. so simple but because it is counter intuitive. it is kind of hide itself in the public. These too I have to thank and apprecaite those who show me selflessly.
We dont need time travel to see the Truth. We only need to drop the attachment to our own personal bias, time, space, diamention. and the truth is there sit still in the reality.
just some thoughts, Happy New Year!
WTF mate? (note the “end of the world” flash movie at ebaumsworld)
However, this is the event history part which is not supporting directly to any technical history; and it Proof nothing about where, how, when, whom the art of WingChun is from.
This explains all that you are trying to connect with presently.
The technology of the swords of the Shanghai Small Sword Society and that of the wing chun baat jaam doa is significantly different enough to suggest there is no connection between them and Wing Chun and secondly the Shanghai SSS are relatively new being in existance only a little over a 100 years.
Inch power is also found in Hung Ga so you are connecting Wing Chun and Hung Ga.
You can not even prove that Ng Mui ever existed so to bring up the name is not technical proof of anything.
GM Ip Man studied and trained with his relative Chu Chong Man also but we all know how you feel about that.
since as we know now, in 1700’s White Crane Weng Chun influence strongly the so called " southern Shao Lin art". There is only one Weng Chun in the History of China in 1700 which is consider paradigm shift or further develop and leading the “southern Shao Lin” , and that is White Crane Weng Chun.
Here you are agreeing there was a paradigm shift but give no reason as to why vague and obtuse purposely it appears.
Again this information is not new, news or more revealing now than when we first learned of these things maybe you are just too bias to see this.
Yup petty clear!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
This one go out to canglong and vtm
I feel petty,
Oh, so petty,
I feel petty and witty and bright!
And I pity
Any girl who isn’t me tonight.
I feel charming,
Oh, so charming
It’s alarming how charming I feel!
And so petty
That I hardly can believe I’m real.
See the petty girl in that mirror there:
Who can that attractive girl be?
Such a petty face,
Such a petty dress,
Such a petty smile,
Such a petty me!
I feel petty,
Oh, so petty
That the city should give me its key.
A committee
Should be organized to honor me.
Theorb,
Grow up!
Nothing special about being an obvious designer imposter!
1, The technology of the swords of the Shanghai Small Sword Society and that of the wing chun baat jaam doa is significantly different enough to suggest there is no connection between them and Wing Chun
and secondly the Shanghai SSS are relatively new being in existance only a little over a 100 years. ---------
if You have AN ORIGINAL WING CHUN BAAT JAAM DOA from 1850’s to support your claim, Please Show us.
Shanghai SSS is real and solid rooted with Hung Mun and Taiping, from ShangHai to canton with connection to the to p rebels big short at that time.
if You have any thing as real as what is preserved and record in Chinese History at 1850, show us.
It Will be even great if you have anything beyond 1850 which is similar to the 6 volume classic of White Crane Weng Chun dated 1700’s or the Emei 12 Zhuang Classic dated 700’s years ago.
2, Inch power is also found in Hung Ga so you are connecting Wing Chun and Hung Ga.-------
You want to link Hung Gar?
As I mention before:
If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng …etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.
Just droping names and being general is not good enough, please go into details.
3, You can not even prove that Ng Mui ever existed so to bring up the name is not technical proof of anything. ----
Can you prove JeeSim, Hung Gam biu, YatChaan exist?
Can you prove the martial art used by Tan Sau Ng is Wing Chun Kuen or Shao Lin or White Crane Weng Chun ?
Can you prove YatChaan is even a Chan monk?
As for technical proof, that is very different from dropping name of saying my lineage knows the truth. There is White Crane Weng Chun , There is Emei 12 Zhuang, There is inch jing join power, there is Keng Geng. … Ng Mui exist or not doesnt really matter because a martial art system is not based on some droping of names but solid technical history can be traced for past hundreds of years.
as you mention “secondly the Shanghai SSS are relatively new being in existance only a little over a 100 years.” so show us the solid trace of Hung Gam biu at that era.
4, GM Ip Man studied and trained with his relative Chu Chong Man also but we all know how you feel about that. Here you are agreeing there was a paradigm shift but give no reason as to why vague and obtuse purposely it appears. -------
GM Ip Man train with GM YKS. Jiu’s Brothers…
GM Ip Man can train with anyone but that is not going to change Wing Chun technical history of the past and SLT is the core of Wing Chun kuen.
and everyone can create his-stories these days.
5, …Again this information is not new, news or more revealing now than when we first learned of these things maybe you are just too bias to see this. --------
in your point of view certainly everything can be bias. and that is understandable.
As you wont even accept that Hung Gam is lead by Lee Man Mau. Hung Gam rebel is there because the Red Boat Opera running out of Costumes for the uprising the Opera Actors raised.
See, every one can choose thier reality. and that is understandable. But that is not going to change the reality which is a fact.
BTW, as I post above until you
can show and provide solid specific data upto 1700’s there is no information from you; not to mention about new or not new information.
Perhaps, you can believe your speculation is your paradigm shift ? But what is the shift in the history of CMA since 1650? and is your shift the same with others shift.
lots of speculation and claims which upto now doesnt match what happen in the history of china, technically.
What paradigm shift ? when speculation doesnt match data collected? what to agree on?
just some thoughts. and IMHHHHHO, please get into technical and not those he said she said who learn from whom.
We today can access to 1700’s record of White Crane Weng Chun and how it influence other styles include the So Called Southern Shao Lin. among other details from other styles.
So, be specific in detail. otherwise, you are speculating about me this and me that instead of get into the topic.
BTW, your believe is always respectable, however, that cannot be taken as truth infront of all the data showing up since 1700.
and shooting at me or poking at me is not going to change the facture data of China.
it is not about me and what I believe or any clever debat. it is about is it such a thing happen once upon of time in China. so, specific data is needed.
This is the 4th times I ask you to present your data. I will not reply your post unless there is data such as
If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng …etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.
A general reply,
I have gotten some emails in asking me about the Counter Intuitive of the White Crane Inch Jing Join Power…how to do it…
Sorry that, I am not the master of White Crane Weng Chun, So, please get a qualified White Crane Weng Chun master to learn about it.
regards
hendrik
I didn’t know ancient chinese used inches to measure – I thought that was english
In my TCM classes I was told that measurements are performed in tsun, “anatomical inches”, relative to the patient. A tsun, according to my teacher, is equivalent to the width of the index and middle fingers of the patients, and can be determined by several other anatomical measures (I know what you are thinking - shame on you).
1 tsun = 10 fen.
Whether “tsun” and “inch” have any other than coincidental correlation I will leave to linguists and historians. I don’t care, myself.
The subject matter of this thread concerns me only as a great subject to meet one of my 2005 resolutions:
“To become the highest profile and most flamed lineage and history troll on the KFOWC forum for 2005”
No doubt I will be up against Hendrik and worthy VTM-aligned adversaries, but I still think I have a chance to, as Ted Nugent put it, “win the race”.
May the best troll win …
Andrew’s “Original Unchanged Australiasian” WCK is a croc…
“To become the highest profile and most flamed lineage and history troll on the KFOWC forum for 2005.”
You’re going to be up against a lot of stiff competition on that one, Andrew.
Maybe you should enter a different category.
How about “Best TWC/BJJ fighter on the KFOWC forum”?
(Less competition…Hey! Wait! I forgot!.. You might be the only one in that category!)
So what?
You win.
“You’re going to be up against a lot of stiff competition on that one, Andrew.”
I do this not because it is easy, but because it is hard (said, I think, about the Apollo program).
And besides, it looks like yellowpest and canglong jumped the starting gun 
Re: a member of the big family
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]BTW,
Attached is a snap short of the family tree of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. Wing Chun Kuen exists in this family tree.
This White Crane Wing Chun family tree was made by International White Crane Wing Chun people. (china, Taiwan, SEA,…) They communicate and discuss.
So, Wing Chun kuen were view as a member of this 400 years (since 1650’s) big family [/B]
If you missed it the first time …
“Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong’s Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County.”
Whether one agrees or not fact is fact. White Crane Wing Chun is the White Crane gung fu of the Fong clan from Wing Chun County. The name has nothing to do with Wing Chun Kuen.
yellowpest !!!
Ha! ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! ha! Ha! ha! Ha! ha!
Re: Re: a member of the big family
Originally posted by desertwingchun2
[B]If you missed it the first time …
“Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong’s Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County.”
Whether one agrees or not fact is fact. White Crane Wing Chun is the White Crane gung fu of the Fong clan from Wing Chun County. The name has nothing to do with Wing Chun Kuen.
Sure, Sure.
as I suggested 4 times above, details please!
If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng …etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.
originally posted by yellopicatchu
If you or David or VTM believe strongly on the Wing Chun NOTHING todo with White Crane of Fujian claim, my suggestion is perhaps some of you can detailly specifically analized the Power generation of White Crane namely the Inch Jing Join Power, the Wing Chun Keng Geng , NOn broken arrow..what kind of power is Keng Geng and How do you generate Keng Geng …etc.. here to show us your view. As it said, No Inch Jing Join Power No White Crane from Fujian. No Keng/Chuck/inch Geng No Wing Chun. so, starting with JIng/power/geng is a proper one, IMHHHHOO.
originally posted by yellowpicatyu
Sorry that, I am not the master of White Crane Weng Chun, So, please get a qualified White Crane Weng Chun master to learn about it
hendrik,
Sounds like you should consider this.
Originally posted by canglong
hendrik,
Sounds like you should consider this.
Dont avoid questions.
Or you really have no idea what is Keng Geng, how to develop it, what is the process of execution…etc.