Thank you all of you for make very interesting this topic !
CLFNole come to the point i’v wanted to go . Why added this form to the CLF curriculum ? It is really a Nothern (very Nothern ) Style.
I’v saw a video of the Lee Koon Hung lineage’s Drunken form and it is very combat form, very southern and clf moves on all the form.
But this Doc Fai Wong forms (drunken and MOnkey) they looks like like northern forms. I think everybody respect the forms because is DFW School , but if this was performed for an singapoor school or mainland china school everybody would will say is a fake or somethimng like that.
Extrajoseph : Do you really believe in the old times people really eating his own monkey’s lices like the modern wushu version ?
I believe this thins really confused people about what is traditional kung fu and what is not.
[QUOTE=facaodotigre;1127183]
Extrajoseph : Do you really believe in the old times people really eating his own monkey’s lices like the modern wushu version ?
I believe this thins really confused people about what is traditional kung fu and what is not.[/QUOTE]
I don’t have any problem with a little bit of embellishment for the sake of entertainment, they might not do it in the olden days but then they don’t have You-tube and all that social networking and in-your-face and look-what-I-can-do home movies.
Don’t take it so seriously, traditional Kung Fu is a living tradition, it gets influenced by Wushu and Wuxia movies naturally. But most serious practitioners would know the difference, what is modern and what is traditional, what is real, what works and what is for fun and entertainment. You are a good example, you’d know.
Take it easy, mate. 
I feel like Lau Kar Leung’s monkey variations need to be added to this thread; from approx 2:10 into this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PhV4cMRVNI
Incidentally, his personal curriculum drops hung kuen’s sup ying kuen entirely in favour of a CLF variation of sup ji to bridge between the fu hok & tid sin kuen HK treasure sets; LKL finding a lot of correlation between HK & CLF for his personal transmission. CLF has enriched my understanding of gung gee. I’m very much naive to CLF outside Lau family teaching; originally thought this was a variation of other sup ji (possibly ‘kau da kuen’?) sets typically seen (not up on other lineages CLF; I’m assuming similarities); but having now learnt most of set & looking for similar examples from others I can’t find anything similarly formed, other than sharing typical CLF principles. I guess called sup ji in LKL’s line as it moves in a cross pattern… much more research for me to do.
Hello XJ:
So you feel that Mo Gik Kuen, Tai Gik Kuen and Loong Ying Baat Kwa are very old sets that were created by Choy Fook, Chan Hueng or a later generation?
I guess I have come to the point in my training where I am questioning why we have so many freaking forms. I mean afterall (an I know it is cliche) but there are only so many ways to kick and punch. 
Peace.
We neither need nor can learn all these sets but they are written up in the Chan family archive. My take is Chan Heung wanted his desciples and descendants to promote Shaolin Kung Fu and tried to be as complete as possible in what got passed down. But also, if there are many sets, then one has to stay around to learn from each other, to ensure that the groups will hang together and support each other.
I remembered my Dad sent me to study with some of his Sihengdi because he does not know many of the sets, that way they kept to be life-long friends. But it does has its downside, it sets up elitism in some people, you know, “I know this and you don’t, therefore I am better than you” kind of behavior.
Chan Wan-Han (Chen Yong-Fa’s father) tried once to reduce all the forms to five sets but he was met with fierce resistance and he dropped the idea.
But when you think about it, although there are lots of empty fist forms, they all grouped into five types: the Sup-Gee sets, the Bak Gwa sets and the Animal forms plus the Internal sets and the Lian Kung methods. So if you can learned two or three from each group, then you are well equipped to master the full CLF.
Like you said, there are only so many ways one can kick and punch, but that is the tradition passed down to us. I hardly do sets now, most of the time I practice San Shou instead, but I have all the kuen-po so if you want me to teach you a new set, I can just look it up and do it; it is a bit like reading music.
I remembered my Dad sent me to study with some of his Sihengdi because he does not know many of the sets, that way they kept to be life-long friends. But it does has its downside, it sets up elitism in some people, you know, “I know this and you don’t, therefore I am better than you” kind of behavior.
very true. You are very guilty of that in a huge way. see below:
Prime example; “Now I bet you don’t know this set either.”
Reply With Quote
But when will you guys realize that having 250 forms will not make you any type of fighter?
So if you can learned two or three from each group, then you are well equipped to master the full CLF.
Without fighting effectively, you will not master CLF.
[QUOTE=facaodotigre;1127183]Thank you all of you for make very interesting this topic !
CLFNole come to the point i’v wanted to go . Why added this form to the CLF curriculum ? It is really a Nothern (very Nothern ) Style.
I’v saw a video of the Lee Koon Hung lineage’s Drunken form and it is very combat form, very southern and clf moves on all the form.
But this Doc Fai Wong forms (drunken and MOnkey) they looks like like northern forms. I think everybody respect the forms because is DFW School , but if this was performed for an singapoor school or mainland china school everybody would will say is a fake or somethimng like that.
Extrajoseph : Do you really believe in the old times people really eating his own monkey’s lices like the modern wushu version ?
I believe this thins really confused people about what is traditional kung fu and what is not.[/QUOTE]
A lot of the less seen CLF forms have a very northern flavour. The leopard fist from the Jiangmen line (which is where this monkey form is from) looks a lot like changquan, and forms such as horse, elephant, diamond lohan, continuous dual kicking, and of course the Gim forms all do as well. They’re just respresentative of Choy Fook’s influence.
I don’t know the form, but I would not be at all surprised if the versions you see on Youtube have the meat and potatoes stuff edited out, and all you’re seeing is the highly imitative sequences for display purposes. Even with what you see, there are martial elements if you look for them.
XJ:
Out of curiousity do you have the kuen po for all of the CLF staff sets?
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1127280]
But when will you guys realize that having 250 forms will not make you any type of fighter?
[/QUOTE]
Nobody’s claiming it will.
Conversely, does the fact that your teacher’s, teacher’s teacher was a famed fighter make you any kind of fighter? The quality of your fight training is what makes you a fighter.
Conversely, does the fact that your teacher’s, teacher’s teacher was a famed fighter make you any kind of fighter? The quality of your fight training is what makes you a fighter.
Nope. what it does do is provide me with a used and proven approach as opposed to someone who has never fought with it at all. and of course the quality of your fight training is what makes you a fighter. this i agree with you on. Conversely, i’m happy that Jeung Yim, Yuen Hai, Lau Bun, Jew Leong and my sifu have a fighting history. was it in the ring? nope, didn’t need to be. the techniques passed down will have their touch and flavor that i can either adopt or discover my own.
I know there is combat applications . I am only saying looks like today traditional Kung Fu needs the modern wushu tricks to show a form on public. And it is too sad. Our art has a lot of beauty on it. Really don’t need copy all that modern moves.
There is a traditional MOnkey form without the addition of all that wushu moves :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2gRKZwMxgk&feature=channel_video_title
This form predates sport wushu. The script for this form came from Chan On Pak via Chan Yen and Wong Gong.
The fact that someone else’s monkey form looks different doesn’t mean it’s not traditional, and like I say, what’s on the video is probably just the beginning and end.
XJ:
Out of curiousity do you have the kuen po for all of the CLF staff sets?
Not all, because I have not learned all the staff sets. But there are only 85 ways of using a staff, so if you can learn the 85 Guan Fa, then you are set.
The 85 are derived from Lee Song’s Seven Methods (Chak Fa), and the special way he does it is to hold the staff tight against the waist, and then use the full body, the footwork and the Dantian to generate the solid but flexible power (hard and soft combined) and at the same time prevent the staff from being knock out of your hands unexpectedly by your opponent. The trick is in how to hold onto the staff properly, it has to be a rigid joint for the staff to be effective but not too tight so it becomes dead.
The “Seung Loong Gap Hei Guan” (Double Dragons Holding onto the Chi Staff) is a good example of this type of staff work.
There is a saying passed down by Chan Heung: "The Shaolin Kuen Fa uses the fists as the seeds, the staff as the teachers and the double broadsword as the mother and father. So one must master at least a long and a short weapon plus some fist works to be complete.
Remember, in the late Qing and the early republican eras street performance was a common revenue stream for martial artists.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1127280]very true. You are very guilty of that in a huge way. see below:
Prime example; “Now I bet you don’t know this set either.”
Reply With Quote
But when will you guys realize that having 250 forms will not make you any type of fighter?
Without fighting effectively, you will not master CLF.[/QUOTE]
That is because you only knows about the blue pills and not the CLF lian kung fa, since you don’t do CLF, so how can it be an one-up-man-ship?
If you read my posts I don’t do all the forms, I selectively train the forms that I like, at a different stages of my life.
special way he does it is to hold the staff tight against the waist, and then use the full body, the footwork and the Dantian to generate the solid but flexible power (hard and soft combined) and at the same time prevent the staff from being knock out of your hands unexpectedly by your opponent.
My sifu has taught us to use the staff the same way. i’ve seen so many people who hold it pretty far away from their bodies.
That is because you only knows about the blue pills and not the CLF lian kung fa, since you don’t do CLF, so how can it be an one-up-man-ship?
See, YOU think its cute. you lash out then say "what? :eek: what did i do? :eek:…
(then grin like an old idiot.) I’ve been hip to your mess for a long time now dude…
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1127304]My sifu has taught us to use the staff the same way. i’ve seen so many people who hold it pretty far away from their bodies.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, so you do do something similar to the Chan family, what a surprise!
Ah, so you do do something similar to the Chan family, what a surprise!
That is NOT a Chan family method. may be used BY some in the Chan Clan, but you are daft to think Chan Heung created the way to hold your staff. Much like the daft way you keep promoting that Chan Heung created each and every single CLF found within your lineages. for some reason you won’t give props to those who created the forms then shared them with the rest of the clan. i guess you can say thats a blessing for the Hung Sing Kuen people. we don’t have that many forms to get all confused n sh1t
Read my post Frank, I said that was Lee Song’s way.
You don’t have all the forms because you don’t do CLF, remember? You do Fut Ga Hung Sing!
Read my post Frank, I said that was Lee Song’s way.
You don’t have all the forms because you don’t do CLF, remember? You do Fut Ga Hung Sing!
That’s Right!!! you got it.
you so think you’re tricky. must be the old age. people around your age their minds tend to run wild with crazy ideas.