Hello to everybody!
Could be a very interesting question to answer this…how many forms there were at the origin…how and who has inserted after?!
Anybody would like to help this thread with his opinion?
It’s not for flame, it’s only for learn!
SY
I don’t think anyone really knows. the forms were never documented in those days, and not all of the forms of the chan family came from chan heung. his students would create new forms and then share it with his CLF brothers.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1037241]I don’t think anyone really knows. the forms were never documented in those days, and not all of the forms of the chan family came from chan heung. his students would create new forms and then share it with his CLF brothers.[/QUOTE]
Hi brother Frank, this is what I have always thought I also…but as we can prove it without historical documents?
Why lot of people (and Shifu too) want allocated of all the forms to Chan Heung?
Politic?Power?Publicity?
As say extrajoseph in another post?!?!
These may be the original forms of CLF?
"Eight Principal Forms of Choy Li Fut
By
Gm Doc-Fai Wong
After Chan Heung founded Choy Li Fut in 1836, he also actively participated in the anti-Manchurian government revolution. He spent a lot of effort training a group of students to get involved with the activities of the revolution. In 1848 Chan Heung set up 18 schools branched out all over the Guangdong and Guangxi provinces of Southern China. At that time, Hong Xiu Quan started the Taiping Rebellion and was the leader. He wanted to establish a new dynasty called the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. Because the Taiping Rebellion started, Chan Heung used eight Chinese characters to created eight major Choy Li Fut hand forms. Those were: Tai, Ping, Tian, Guo, Chang, An, Wan, Nian , which means long live the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. Chan Heung taught these eight forms to his students and encouraged them to participate in the revolutionary activities. In 1851 the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was established. Fourteen years later in 1864, this new kingdom was perished by the Manchus. The Manchurian government wanted to clean up all the political criminals. At that time, all the people involved with the revolution wanted to avoid the Manchus execution by hiding. The names of these eight hand forms have been changed because of this reason. Nowadays, these eight principal choy li fut hand forms’ original names have gradually been forgotten in the system and most people thought these forms were lost.
Tai, which means Grand or Supreme, represented the name of the hand form Taijo Kuen (Supreme Ancestor Hand Form) which was mainly to commemorate the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty, Zhu Yuan Zhang. Because it was asscoiated with the revolution, later on Chan Heung changed the form’s name to Tai Hui (Tai Xu) Kuen or the Supreme Emptiness Hand Form. This form consisted of the Yin and Yang principle. That is hard carrying soft energy and soft carrying hard energy. Later on in Xinhui, there was a kung fu system that came from northern China called Tai Hoi Kuen. The Choy Li Fut founder’s family didn’t want the future generations to believe that our hand form had something to do with that kung fu system. Therefore the name was changed to Mo Gik (Wuji) Kuen or the Ultimate Less Hand Form. Nowadays, not many people know of this hand form anymore. They might think its the Tai Jee Kuen (The Character of Tai Hand Form) which some Choy Li Fut schools recently teach.
Ping, the meanings are Level, Flat, to pacify or to settle. The original name of this form was called Ping Moon Kuen. It means to pacify the Manchurian government and restore the dynasty back to the Han Chinese. Gradually the name was shortened to Ping Kuen (Level Form). The real name of this form has slowly become unknown. There is another hand form in the Choy Li Fut system called the Ping Jang Kuen (Conflict Settlement Form). Many people thought this is the same form as Ping Kuen. Actually, there is a big difference of techniques and movements between these two forms. The Ping Jang Kuen is another hand form of the system.
Tian (Cantonese Tin), means Sky or Heaven. The original name of this form was called Tin Dei Sup Fang Kuen, which means The Ten Directions of Heaven and Earth Form. Because the name was too long, it was shortened to Tin Dei Kuen or the Heaven and Earth Form. There was a revolutionary society named Heaven and Earth for anti-Qing Dynasty government. Therefore the name of this form was changed to Sup Jee Kuen or the Cross Pattern Hand Form, same as Sup Jee Kau Da Kuen. When the Siu Sup Jee Kuen or the Small Cross Pattern Form was added to the system, the original forms name was then changed to Dai Sup Jee Kuen or Large Cross Pattern Form.
Guo (Cantonese Gwok), means the State or Country. The real name of this form was Gwok Fa Kuen or the National Flower Hand Form. For thousands of years in China, the peony is the national flower. However during the revolution of anti-Manchurian, the national flower was changed to be the plum flower. That meant the comrades of the revolutionary must have the spirit of the plum blossom because the Chinese are tough, hard working and also able to take pain just like the plum blossom growing in the snow and ice. Therefore the Gwok Fa Kuen was changed to Mui Fa Kuen or Plum Blossom Hand Form. Fa Kuen or Blossom Form is the short name for this form. Later the Siu Mui Fa Kuen or the Small Plum Blossom Hand Form was added to the system. The name of the original form was changed to Dai Mui Fa Kuen or the Large Plum Blossom Hand Form. It also is called Mui Fa Bot Gwa Kuen or Plum Blossom Bagua Hand Form. Some people heard about this form and thought it’s the Gwok Jee Kuen or the Gwok Character Hand Form and because they have never learned this form, they created their own form called Gwok Jee Kuen. It was based on the look of the Gwok character’s squared shape and made the form’s footwork moving around in a square format.
Chang (Cantonese Cheong) means long. Most people called it Cheong Kuen, or in Mandarin, Chang Quan. This is not the Northern system of Taizu Changquan. There is no relationship with the Taizu Changquan at all. The original name of this form was called Cheong Gong Dai Long Kuen or the Big Waves of Yangtze River Hand Form. This name symbolized the ambition of the Chinese people like the Yangtze River’s strong waves over throwing the anti Manchurian government. The name of the form was too long and later changed to Cheong Kuen or Long Fist Form, also known as Tit Jin Kuen or Iron Arrow Hand Form. Some people combined the names together and called it Tit Jin Cheong Kuen or Iron Arrow Long Fist Form.
An (Cantonese On), means Security. This hand form’s original name was On Bang Kuen or To Secure the Nation Hand Form. It means that China should be settled down after the revolution. Later, it was changed to Hung Yen Kuen or the Hung’s People Hand Form. The Hung Yen was the same as the Chinese Freemasons who were practicing Choy Li Fut for the revolutionary purpose. Because the name had the anti-government meaning, the Chinese character was later changed but has the same Cantonese sound which means strong or masculine. It is also called Hung Yen Bagua Hand Form.
Wan (Cantonese Man), normally means 10,000. The formal name was Man Jeong Kuen or the 10,000 Shapes hand form. The phrase Man Jeong Gang Sun means everything in the universe will become new. At that time, the Chinese hoped that when the revolution is successful, China will change to a new scene and a new lifestyle of living. Man Jeong also means 10,000 elephants. Because of this meaning, some school have a hand form called the Ten Thousand Elephants Hand Form. The Chan family saw this funny name and therefore changed its name to Bot Gwa Kuen or the Bagua Hand Form, which all things in the universe are within the five elements of bagua philosophy. Later on there was a Siu Bot Gwa Kuen or the Small Bagua Hand Form. The original hand form changed to call the Dai Bot Gwa Kuen or the Large Bagua Hand Form. Some Choy Li Fut schools have a hand form called Man Jee Kuen (the Man Character’s Hand form) which was also originally from this character that meant 10,000.
Nian (Cantonese Nin), means Years. Many people misunderstood this hand form which was named Nin Jee Kuen or the Nin Character Hand Form. Actually this form’s name was called the Nin Zhang Kuen or the Elderly Hand Form. When a person became a senior citizen or elderly, their hair should turn grey or white. Therefore this form was later renamed Bak Mo Kuen or the White Hair Hand Form. The Chinese wished for the revolution to be successful and to overthrow the Manchurian government so that all citizens can live peacefully until all their hair turned white with longevity.
In addition, Choy Li Fut has many hand forms. The above mentioned eight principal hand forms were the most widely taught in the old days. The order of teaching sequence did not go by the order of these eight Chinese characters. All the above information that I received was from my teacher Great-Grandmaster Hu Yuen Chou. Hu did the interviews from his teachers Chan Ngau Sing, Chan Yiu Chi and other Choy Li Fut seniors when he was young. The new generations don’t know much about this information anymore. Therefore, I am educating the public by writing this to pass down for the future generations as historical information.
Thats what Doc Fai Wong wrote? His research and understanding is quite poor. That above is even a further exaggeration of the same story he told in his little orange book long ago… seems he really wants to tell the world why he doesnt have something that others do!
There are 8 original hand forms from Jeung Hung Sing. Not forgotten, just not found by Wong. When people cant access something they have a way of saying its trivial or fabricated.
Taai Ji Keun is actually Taai Hui Keun? BS
Ping Ji Keun is actually Ping Jaang Keun? BS
Tin Ji Keun is actually Sup Ji Kau Da? BS
Gok Ji Keun is actually Mui Fa Keun? BS
Cheung refers to Tit Jin Cheung Keun? BS
On refers to Hung Yan Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Maan refers to Siu and Daai Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Nin refers to Bak Mo Keun? BS
First he said these forms were fabricated by recent generations…
Now he says they did exist but are actually Chan Family forms!
First he said it was just a story by the fictitious Yim Fut Saan Yan…
Now he says its a true account from Hu Yuen Chou!
Hu learned this from Chan Ngau Sing he says? Well My lineage is from the successor of Chan Ngau Sing and we say BS!
Is Doc Fai Wong saying that Chan Heung’s CLF is made up of disguised Jeung Hung Sing forms? What does a legitimate Chan Family representative have to say about that?
There are no 2 forms shared between Jeung’s CLF and Chan’s CLF. This is a fact! Not the name, and not the form!
Here is the Choi Lei Fut that Doc Fai Wong promotes, it should give an understanding into what he considers kung fu to be!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGkBc52ajEI
[QUOTE=soulfist;1037364]Thats what Doc Fai Wong wrote? His research and understanding is quite poor. That above is even a further exaggeration of the same story he told in his little orange book long ago… seems he really wants to tell the world why he doesnt have something that others do!
There are 8 original hand forms from Jeung Hung Sing. Not forgotten, just not found by Wong. When people cant access something they have a way of saying its trivial or fabricated.
Taai Ji Keun is actually Taai Hui Keun? BS
Ping Ji Keun is actually Ping Jaang Keun? BS
Tin Ji Keun is actually Sup Ji Kau Da? BS
Gok Ji Keun is actually Mui Fa Keun? BS
Cheung refers to Tit Jin Cheung Keun? BS
On refers to Hung Yan Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Maan refers to Siu and Daai Baat Gwa Keun? BS
Nin refers to Bak Mo Keun? BS
First he said these forms were fabricated by recent generations…
Now he says they did exist but are actually Chan Family forms!
First he said it was just a story by the fictitious Yim Fut Saan Yan…
Now he says its a true account from Hu Yuen Chou!
Hu learned this from Chan Ngau Sing he says? Well My lineage is from the successor of Chan Ngau Sing and we say BS!
Is Doc Fai Wong saying that Chan Heung’s CLF is made up of disguised Jeung Hung Sing forms? What does a legitimate Chan Family representative have to say about that?
There are no 2 forms shared between Jeung’s CLF and Chan’s CLF. This is a fact! Not the name, and not the form!
Here is the Choi Lei Fut that Doc Fai Wong promotes, it should give an understanding into what he considers kung fu to be!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGkBc52ajEI[/QUOTE]
I agree with you!!
Could you please write your (BS) history version about how many form and wich come from Chan Heung?!
If Frank agree I would like to post a interview by Shifu Gary Sambroke about CLF history development…
SY
My BS history version about Chan Heung’s forms? I honestly dont know and they will never tell nor confirm. Each publication over the years from the Chan Family is different. I have copies saying 128 forms, then later 148 forms, and most recent is “over 190 forms”. What is most original from them? I guess the things that are most common among different schools, and especially the foundational forms Id think.
All I know is that what you posted from Doc Fai Wong is pure rubbish! In that one article he utterly disgraced both branches of CLF! Saying that Chan style is made up of Jeung’s material, and that Jeung’s original material no longer exists within its own branch! And he claims that this was the words from Chan Yiu Chi and Chan Ngau Sing!
Where did you find that gem anyway?
[QUOTE=soulfist;1037369]My BS history version about Chan Heung’s forms? I honestly dont know and they will never tell nor confirm. Each publication over the years from the Chan Family is different. I have copies saying 128 forms, then later 148 forms, and most recent is “over 190 forms”. What is most original from them? I guess the things that are most common among different schools, and especially the foundational forms Id think.
All I know is that what you posted from Doc Fai Wong is pure rubbish! In that one article he utterly disgraced both branches of CLF! Saying that Chan style is made up of Jeung’s material, and that Jeung’s original material no longer exists within its own branch! And he claims that this was the words from Chan Yiu Chi and Chan Ngau Sing!
Where did you find that gem anyway?[/QUOTE]
In the DFW website http://plumblossom.net/Grandmaster/eight-principal.html
I post it only for speak about it, I’m not from DFW school, I’m from Lee Koon Hung school but I would like to discuss with you about CLF history, in our curriculum we have only 48 set included fighting set, hand set and weapon set.
I think that 48 forms are already so many… if not too many… let alone 190 
SY
[QUOTE=soulfist;1037364]T
There are no 2 forms shared between Jeung’s CLF and Chan’s CLF. This is a fact! Not the name, and not the form!
[/QUOTE]
Here is a video of Peng Ji Kuen performed by Chiu Kwong-Yuan (Futsan Hung Sing CLF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ41EyVIe8k&feature=related
Followed by a video of Peng Kuen performed by Chen Yong-Fa (King Mui Hung Sing CLF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIHhhBRVEIM&feature=related
What are so different between the two? None, they are both unmistakeably CLF with some stylistic variations.
The names of the forms we gave to them and the sequence of the forms don’t matter, nor the beginning and the finishing movements. We share the same seeds and the same origin, and we belong to the same stem and the same roots of the same tree.
[QUOTE=Sunyang;1037370]
I post it only for speak about it, I’m not from DFW school, I’m from Lee Koon Hung school but I would like to discuss with you about CLF history, in our curriculum we have only 48 set included fighting set, hand set and weapon set.
I think that 48 forms are already so many… if not too many… let alone 190
SY[/QUOTE]
Hi Sunyang,
It is never meant for a student to learn all of the hundreds of forms, the idea is to specialize according to one’s abilities and later on cross train with each other, below is how Chen Yong-Fa described his Grandfather Chan Yiu-Chi’ teaching method:
[I]"A part of Yiu Chi’s approach to teaching was to have pupils follow a program that got the best results according to daily activity, body types, mental and physical abilities. For example his pupils in the unions do physical labor and already have many of the basic strength skills so he would teach forms/weapons that advance their co-ordination.
Opposed to a middle school were his students are younger and may not have developed physical strength but a great aptitude to understanding physics so his focus is on forms that teach speed and subtle attacks as opposed to brute strength.
Yiu Chi has over 80 recorded disciples that are considered long term students within these there are 3 groups. Each group learnt the Choy Lee Fut system but Yiu Chi had them focus/specialize in certain “essences of CLF”.
Group 1 was known as the Four Great Heavenly Kings. These 4 disciples were renowned for their focus on Gung (power), Qi (energy), Fai (speed), and mastery of the bak gwa techniques
Group 2 was known as “War Hap Yee Sing” (Uniting Together of the Immortals). These disciples developed and focused on Qi (internal energy), Yum Yern Gung (soft and hard power), Fai (speed), and bak gwa directional changing
Group 3 was known as “Yee Sup Sei Sing Suks” (24 Immortal Uncles). All these were assistant instructors and focused on mastering the 3 levels of instruction with fist, weapon and dummy forms divided into primary, intermediate and advanced.
This system enabled Yiu Chi to teach vast numbers of people Choy Lee Fut in his later life. Concentrating and mastering a particular skill and then helping your brothers to understand that same skill is its self a great cross training system within our Choy Lee fut system that Yiu Chi introduced.
There is just not enough time to learn the entire 200 plus forms that teach all the executions and techniques in our working lives. However Yiu Chi having made a standard approach with specialization enables the pupils to maximize their learning abilities.[/I]"
XJ
Extrajoseph, that means that you agree with Doc Fai Wong right? You support that Chan Family CLF is made up of Jeung Hung Sing’s forms? Interesting you should say so!
So the sequence of the moves doesnt matter, only the moves themselves? Are not all of the over 190 forms of your clan just the same moves in different sequences?
Hi Soulfist,
What I tried to say is that CLF, no matter what branch one belonged to, is made of a core set of the same “seeds” and from these seeds, different forms are made up.
For example all these letters that you and I wrote here are made of the same 26 alphabets and with 26 alphabets we can make up a lot of words, so with even 10 “seeds” we can make up many CLF forms.
XJ
Yes I know what you were trying to say and agree with you wholeheartedly. I also prefer blonds to brunettes. But a matter is that you also deflected the question and the issue. Is this a topic perhaps that we shouldnt pursue?
Soulfist, Where does DFW says original forms are made up of Jeung Yim? May be I may be have reading comprehension issues.
First he said these forms were fabricated by recent generations…
Now he says they did exist but are actually Chan Family forms!
Think about it. First he claimed that Ching Cho was nothing more than a myth, then claims that he discovered that Choy Fook was really Ching Cho!!!
Sun,
IF you have the SHOCKING REVELATIONS article…please post it up.
What are so different between the two? None, they are both unmistakeably CLF with some stylistic variations.
The names of the forms we gave to them and the sequence of the forms don’t matter, nor the beginning and the finishing movements. We share the same seeds and the same origin, and we belong to the same stem and the same roots of the same tree.
Joseph, you’re SO full of it!!! The two sets you posted are NOT the same. We don’t share any sequences of moves, nor sections that are found in the Chan Fam Ping Kuen. Stylistic Variations? if you placed a Hung Sing and a Chan Family student together to perform these two forms it is utterly clear that they are NOT the same in ANY WAY.
It is never meant for a student to learn all of the hundreds of forms, the idea is to specialize according to one’s abilities and later on cross train with each other, below is how Chen Yong-Fa described his Grandfather Chan Yiu-Chi’ teaching method:
For one, why have so many forms that share the same grouping of techniques? why not just have ONE form with all of the right stuff in them? its very sad that it is insinuated that Chan Heung created 190 forms when even the Chan Family know is a lie.
What does DFW mean? Is that a place… its just unclear to me what is being said!
Sorry for the sarcasm but it was earned. In the passage posted above it said that Chan Heung created those 8 forms yes. I forget what the former version of this in his book said as I dont have it handy right now. But those are known as the 8 forms of Jeung Yim that he passed on to his followers. You know that Jeung Yim knew and passed on 8 forms that are in fact the core of any school or practitioner who does Hung Sing CLF?
If Chan Heung expanded these 8 forms into his CLF then that is saying that his CLF is spawned by Jeung Yim… if you agree with the story then you agree with this.
If you dont believe these 8 came from Jeung Yim you can easily find several separate lineages of his art that developed in different countries independently of one another who have kept the core intact.
DFW took the names of Jeung Yim’s forms and manipulated them into names of forms known under Chan Family CLF. Those original forms, or at least the names, do still exist as is in schools of Hung Sing. So, from this you can chose to believe 1 of 2 things:
- Hung Sing practitioners are practicing new forms and not what Jeung Yim actually taught. In which case you believe that Chan Family CLF grew out of Jeung Yims art!
or
- Doc Fai Wong is full of baloney! In which case Chan Heung created his own material and his students follow his teaching and what it grew into. And Hung Sing people from Jeung Yim practice their own art in the exact same manner.
If you agree with the 1 then you say both schools have lied about the source of the material they are made up of. Extrajoseph seems to agree with this but has yet to comment as to why.
[QUOTE=extrajoseph;1037377]Hi Sunyang,
It is never meant for a student to learn all of the hundreds of forms, the idea is to specialize according to one’s abilities and later on cross train with each other, below is how Chen Yong-Fa described his Grandfather Chan Yiu-Chi’ teaching method:
[I]"A part of Yiu Chis approach to teaching was to have pupils follow a program that got the best results according to daily activity, body types, mental and physical abilities. For example his pupils in the unions do physical labor and already have many of the basic strength skills so he would teach forms/weapons that advance their co-ordination.
Opposed to a middle school were his students are younger and may not have developed physical strength but a great aptitude to understanding physics so his focus is on forms that teach speed and subtle attacks as opposed to brute strength.
Yiu Chi has over 80 recorded disciples that are considered long term students within these there are 3 groups. Each group learnt the Choy Lee Fut system but Yiu Chi had them focus/specialize in certain “essences of CLF”.
Group 1 was known as the Four Great Heavenly Kings. These 4 disciples were renowned for their focus on Gung (power), Qi (energy), Fai (speed), and mastery of the bak gwa techniques
Group 2 was known as “War Hap Yee Sing” (Uniting Together of the Immortals). These disciples developed and focused on Qi (internal energy), Yum Yern Gung (soft and hard power), Fai (speed), and bak gwa directional changing
Group 3 was known as “Yee Sup Sei Sing Suks” (24 Immortal Uncles). All these were assistant instructors and focused on mastering the 3 levels of instruction with fist, weapon and dummy forms divided into primary, intermediate and advanced.
This system enabled Yiu Chi to teach vast numbers of people Choy Lee Fut in his later life. Concentrating and mastering a particular skill and then helping your brothers to understand that same skill is its self a great cross training system within our Choy Lee fut system that Yiu Chi introduced.
There is just not enough time to learn the entire 200 plus forms that teach all the executions and techniques in our working lives. However Yiu Chi having made a standard approach with specialization enables the pupils to maximize their learning abilities.[/I]"
XJ[/QUOTE]
Extrajoseph, I understand wath you say but I created this topic for another reason, I would like to trace a line from now to the beginning, and try to understand wath Chan Heung or Jeung Yim used to teach, wich forms.
Now, DFW try to say what all CLF forms come from Chan Heung, all written texts that he have come from Chan Heung…I belive this is a lie.
In my country (Italy) many people don’t know the History of CLF and lot of them think that DCF have the truth.
I would like only to speak about the origin of CLF for try to understand and after left something interesting for the future generation.
Sorry for my poor english…
SY
GSHAMBROOKE
ME
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Age: 42
Posts: 1,806
Thanked 99 Times in 67 Posts
CHOY LAY FUT HISTORY
Ok personally i love this, some people are not going to like it, some people may be shocked, whatever i dont really care i might even make some new enemies, nothing new there.
A couple of days ago an ex student of mine who i havent seen for a few years but we stay in contact on face book invited me over to catch up so i said no problem, he also set up my web site for me because he is a bit of a computer wiz.
Anyway when i was there he produced a file with a load of histoy on CLF and the Buck Sing Gwoon that Master David lacey, Myself, a very dedicated senior kung fu brother Nick Lizos and another lower level student of my sifus Micheal Coombah that was a part time freelance journalist spent years investigating and i had completely forgotten about.
http://www.buksing.com/history/lun_tse/l_t_1.html
Attachment 19731 Attachment 19732
Master Lun Tse the last living student of The Founder of the CLFBSG
Anyway this guy Lun Tse was the last student alive of Tarm Sarms he died a few years ago but i had the pleasure of meeting him back in March 1998 he came to Melbourne and we picked him up brought him to our school and put on a bit of a show and took him out to a resturant and all that, we also paid for a couple of interpreters because he did not speak any english and he said anything you want to know just ask me so this is what we documented this is exactly the same account of Choy Lay Fut history that Sigung Kong Hing gave us in Hong Kong.
Attachment 19734
Grandmaster Kong Hing in his house in Hong Kong
Visit by Sisuk Dai Gung Lun Tse to the Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoon Melbourne Australia with autobiographical stories, extensive biographical anecdotes on the founder Tarm Sarm and is contempories.
Including also-
A series of shock relevations concerning the origin and primary development of Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu.
March 27th 1998.
As recorded by Dai Si Hing Gary Shambrooke And Seinior Student Nick Lizos and a lower level student part time freelance journalist Michael Coombah of the CLFBSG.
Sisuk Dai Gung is now 88 and will turn 89 this year in september. He is residing in Calgary Canada. He has many relatives there, some in Sydney Australia that he doesn’t really know and a nephew here in Melbourne Victoria.
Originally from Guangzhou, he began learning Kung Fu at the age of 13.
He and his friends were eager to learn so they went to a famous master, they approched a renowned Kung Fu exponent in the city- Master Tarm Sarm.
Tarm Sarm began teaching the boys Choy Lay Fut- it would be the only style that Lun Tse would ever learn.
Of those 16 students he is now the only living survivor.
It was largely on the urging of these students that Tarm Sarm accepted the title of Sifu.
In these times Lun Tse took the lead in giving a beating to the many students of other styles that came forward to challenge him and his brothers.
He was “Always the first” but around the time of his move to Canada (1975) he began to follow the path of a gentlemen
He moved to Hong Kong in the 30s as the Japanese advanced through China and began to establish himself in buisiness selling seafood.
After the war Lun Tse returned to Guangzhou which saw he and his friends caught up in the struggles between local communists and supporters of the Nationalists.
He and some fellow students saw alot of action, usually with weapons and sometimes with fatalities on either side.
Lun Tse and his friends did well with their participation in these battles which earnt them around $5.00 per day.
After the communists victory he moved back to Hong Kong.
In all his life Lun Tse has only really trained six students, but did teach some middle aged students in Canada who were learning Kung Fu to maintain health and fitness.
None of his six students ever really set up schools but only a few in Canada.
In conversatin Sisuk Dai Gung stresses that we should respect other styles of Kung Fu and that we are fortunate to train in Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut as it is scarcely Taught anywhere today.
Grand Master Tarm Sarm the fouder of the Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoon.
Attachment 19735
Tarm Sarm was not just a great fighter but also a cultured individual who studied calligraphy.
He worked as a clerk in Guangzhou as he never could make money from teaching Kung Fu, in fact he only ever managed to pay the schools bills from the schools income.
He had originally learnt Choy Lay Fut from Lui Chan one of Jeung Hung Sings students and he always had a high developmental approch to fighing, constantly looking to improve his Kung Fu techniques.
After the death or disappearance of Jeung Hung Sing many of his students became enraged striking out blindly at people for revenge.
In time this led to a lingering bad reputation for Hung sing Choy Lay Fut, hence Tarm Sarm renamed his school after Siu Buck - the district of Guangzhou in which it was located, he encouraged a seperate identity from the Hung Sing Gwoon.
The separation in technical terms became distinct after his meeting with Buck Siu Lum Master Ku yi Cheung.
Both these figures had heard of each other’s expertise before they met which they did when Ku Yi Cheung came to Guangzhou to set up a school.
He agreed to a friendly sparring session with Tarm Sarm.
In this match neither could better the other and the end result was that the two decided to pool their students and exchange some technques.
Northern Shaolin Master Ku Yi Cheung
Tarm Sarm died at the age of 69 from a disease which was incurable - at least under the circumstances of the day.
He could not obtain adequate medical help to ensure his survival.
Tarm Sarms anniversary is celebrated on the 24th of december in the chinese calendar.
The Origin And Foundation Of Choy Lay Fut.
Chan Heung never learnt Kung Fu.
Being a clan teacher in King mui village he chose to take in Jeong Yim.
This young man was in actual or potential trouble from the Manchu authorities possibly for avoiding conscription.
Chan Heung began to teach the young man calligraphy and literature which led him being given the title Sifu.
Jeong Yim - who may already have been known as Jeong Hung Sing - was then taught Kung Fu by the Shaolin Monks Lay Yau San, Choy Ah **** and Ching Cho.
This Kung Fu he was Learning was Called Fut Gar and it came directly from the Shaolin temple.
By the time Jeong Hung Sing had trained under these three masters his Kung Fu had become somewhat distinct.
Observers would say that some techniques resembled those of Lau Gar, others resembled Choy Gar and naturally much remained of the roots in Fut Gar.
Jeong Hung Sing decided to name his style after the combined names of these styles (CHOY LAY FUT).
It is important to note that the three forms known today as the three Buck Sing forms were taught to Jeong Hung Sing by his masters and he was possibly not taught any weapons.
Having formulated and named this new Kung Fu Jeong Hung Sing Decided To head for the city of Fut San to establish and teach it.
Before leaving however he taught Choy Lay Fut to Chan Koon Pak who taught Chan Yiu Chi and established the lineage that survived in Sun Wui town and district and continues to Chan Yong Fa in Sydney Australia.
Once his Gwoon Was established in Futsan Jeong Hung Sing taught Lui Chan who in turn taught Tarm Sarm.
This is the lineage of true Choy Lay Fut that was established in Guanghou.
Jeong Hung Sing in the end becomes a mystery - no portrait or photograph of him was known to have ever existed and the man himself apparently disapeared.
NOTE: This history of Choy Lay Fut was outlined to myself Michael Coombah and one of my senior instructors Nick Lizos in Hong Kong only weeks ago.
It was given to us in breif by Sigung Kong Hing at his home in Kowloon Hong Kong and he stated clearly that Fut San was the home of Choy La Fut.
At the time of our visit a new Choy Lay Fut association was being formed that would propagate this true history.
Now i Dai Si Hing Gary Shambrooke asked Grandmaster Lun Tse the last surviving student of Tarm Sarm this exact question and this is what he said.
Master Lun Tse told me and this is word for word, the most commonly known history of Choy Lay Fut is not correct, many people beleive that Chan Heurng was not the founder of Choy Lay Fut and that he only planted the seed of its true development.
Jeong Hung Sing one of Chan Heurngs short term students is really credited to developing the Choy Lay Fut Hung Sing style to the deadly and leathal level of skill that it has today.
Lun Tse says that really the first Hung Sing Gwoon was opend in Fut San.
I asked him him and i quote, so Master Lun Tse are you saying that Master Chan Heurng did not really develop the art of Choy Lay Fut.
He said to me and i quote, No! Chan Heurng was not a Kung Fu Master, he was a scholar it was Jeong Hung Sing that really developed Choy Lay Fut.
If there are people that do not agree with me i do not care, i am quoting word for word exactly what the last surviving top student of Great grand Master Tarm Sarm champion of the north said, not many peole can say that they have actualy talked Kung Fu history with a student of Tarm Sarms, it was a great honour.