Monk Ching Cho Woe Serng

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
41

thanks joseph,

i appreciate your input. however, I don’t fully trust the CHan Family records when it comes to Jeong Yim.

Brother Joseph,…are you suggesting that i ignore Jeong Yim direct branch and their history and trust ONLY Chan Heung when it comes to Jeong Yim?

I only trust Chan Family for CHan Family history. I would NEVER use them as a source for Hung Sing or Buk Sing Kwoons history.

Being a Hung Sing disciple if i never listened to the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon and only trusted in the Chan Family history then I would have to believe Jeong Yim came into the next picture much much later.

We would also have to trust that the green grass monk is CHoy Fook. we would have to believe that Jeong Yim was sent by chan heung in 1867 to fut san to open a school. Basically, the Chan Family can write their story according to how they see fit.

but when it comes to the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon i would go directly to them no one else to learn their history. it is completely RIDICULOUS to rely on any one but the source to research history.

Joseph, if i followed the chan family account, then i would have to believe that Chan Heung was using Jeong Yim’s Hung Sing first in fut san. However, with a little research, we come to realize the Jeong Yim’s and Chan Heung’s HungSing only sound the same but are two completely different sets of characters. one means Great Sage Hung, while the other means GLorious Victory or the Wild Goose Winning.

If i was to trust the chan family, i would never have learned that Jeong Yim’s hsk was closed down by the ching in 1864, Jeong Yim fled to hong kong and came back to fut san in 1867.

If i were to trust the chan family history i would have to believe that Jeong Yim was in the picture in the late 1860’s when government records show jeong yim organized the Hung SIng Kwoons in Fut San (all of his own group) in 1851 at the beginning of the Tai Ping Rebellion.

Joseph, there’s alot harder evidence about Jeong Yim’s involvement with the Hung Mun and all the revolutions that happened in and around Fut San than what the chan family can provide.

If all Choy Lee Fut bowed down to Chan Heung because he was the first founder, how can you explain that in the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon there are no photo’s or paintings of Chan Heung in any of the studios except for Chan Heungs?

See Joseph, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon has a very legitimate history which needs to be heard. Their are many famous Hung Sing Kwoon Disciples that belong to the Fut San Hung SIngKwoon that the Chan family doesn’t make mention of…for example, Wu Qin, Qian Wei Fang, Liang Hui Hua, Li So, and many others.

Nowhere in English do you see that In 1868 CHan Heung’s Choy Lee Fut took on a major re-development. Why have they kept that out of the history? Why was there a major re-devolpment?

Why doesn’t the Chan family explain away how CHan Koon Pak never learned Gung fu from his father, but yet he is on the direct family tree as if he was passing down chan Heung’s gung fu. He wasn’t teaching Chan family CLF. what was he teaching? Something that Jeong Yim taught him possibly?

I would love to read the Chan Family Kuen Po’s and history. However, Fut San Has their own Records, Kuen Po’s and history.

See, how can the Chan Family explain that if Choy Fook was the Green Grass Monk, then how did the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon recover ancestral tablets with his name on it in fut san during japanese invasion. The Green Grass Monk passed on the In and Out bagua, which Chan Ngua Sing dissected into 3 major forms…Ping Kuen, Kou Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen. Does the Chan Family practice these forms joseph?

i think its obivous that Jeong Yim’s Ping Kuen and Chan Heung’s Ping Kuen’s are two completely different sets.

But before I end this my brother Joseph, can you answer me a question?

"Why should i believe the chan family account of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, when the source of the Hung Sing Kwoon has a whole different account of the history?

Also, how come no one ever speaks about the time that Chan Heung left king mui going all over the place. He wasn’t developing his gung fu. he may have been spreading it, but when he came back to King Mui, there was more going on than when he left. so who developed the gung fu for him while he was gone?

hsk

There is too many open ended questions that can never be answered joseph.

I think for the safety of all our branches in the future all branches should just let the others tell their stories.

42

brother joseph,

i’m inside the circle you speak of because i can see more than you think.

To tell you the truth, CLF history became a passion of mine. in that time i have come to realize that if we listen to only the chan family CLF then the Fut San HSK history and jeong yim will be forgotten, then we would have to rely on historical records writtne by chan heung’s family and not of Jeong Yim’s students and grandstudents.

there are like i said fut san historical records, why should i believe Chan Heung’s version over the founder of my branch?

We all know that Jeong Yim was one of of the most famous, prolific, and trusted disciples of Chan Heung. He had even surpassed the greatness of Chan Heung with all of his efforts to spread CLF and his reputation as a fighter.

However. Jeong Yim went around spreading CLF with chan Heung. He obeyed his sifu Monk Ching Cho and went to the Fut San Hung Mun branch, introduced himself, and joined in on assisting the revolution. he was not travelling around as the chan family would like us to believe.

the facts are this…

Jeong Yim learned first from Lee Yau San, then Chan Heung, then Monk Ching Cho.

Jeong Yim got his new name from Ching Cho which meant victory to the Hung Mun. Monk Ching CHo was one of the 2nd founding fathers of the Hung Mun. Much like you say Chan Heung started CLF first then Jeong Yim came behind him and took it to a new level. Ching Cho used the name of his organization (which wasn’t thefirst time the name Hong SHeng was used the same way in someone’s name) “Hung” and “Victory” because they were trying to overthrow the Ching Empire.

Jeong Yim had two kids who died early on as well. he was married to a woman named Chan Kay.

Why doesn’t the Chan Family tell of this?

why is it that the Chan Family records stop with chan heung’s family line?

is it because of bloodline?

if thats the case i’ll stick to the fut san hung sing kwoon when i want to know my history.

but thanks joseph.

43

Joseph,

I was just thinking. I want you and the other Choy Lee Fut people to know, that history is just a small part of what CLF is all about. History is something to refer to, it doesn’t help you out when it comes to fighting.

Aside of the historical battle, I DON’T have ANY problems with CHan Family CLF. I actually think after seeing Chan Yong Fa and his people I’m impressed with their CLF, and see a whole lot of effective stuff, and would NEVER say i found it impractical.

I’ve never had any problems with Chan Family fighting, or their forms. i don’t really have problems with their own history. the only problem i have with as many huge gaping holes in their history (let’s not forget the Tiger incident) is them trying to tell US OUR history.

We will listen to our own lineage when it comes to wanting to know our history.
we will tell our history as it has been passed down.

And, just because i choose to research my branches history doesn’t mean i’m wrong. Like i said long long ago. We thought Chan Heung had to do alot with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, until we started to research our history, kept digging and now i’m convinced the only place to learn Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history IS…FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON. Not Chan Family CHOY LEE FUT.

44

Hi Frank,

I can give you an explanation of most of the questions you have raised but I am not going to because they bear no relationship to the big picture that we all came from the same root and that there is an unity in the multiplicity of things that we do.

I give you an example, you asked “Jeong Yim had two kids who died early on as well. he was married to a woman named Chan Kay. Why doesn’t the Chan Family tell of this?” I would ask you, “Why the Chan Family has tell others about his private life when it beared no relationship to the history and development of CLF?”

All styles of Kung Fu, include CLF is not just about blood line, what good is blood line is there is no skill? Do you think Chen Yong-Fa can be where he is today without skill and hard work? Those video you’ve got showing his students going through their stuff just don’t came by themselves.

The Chan Family has a lot to offer because many of Chan Heung’s descendants are still alive and teaching! But you keep trying to shoot them down with your non-sense about history instead of learning and sharing knowledge with them.

You have no sense of good manners and propriety.

Enough said, the bottom line is, whethere you trust the Chan Family or not, Jeong Yim was not the founder of CLF, but he was a great CLF pioneer and everyone , including the Chan Family, acknowledged that.

Are youy satisfied?

No, of course not! You will go on and on and on and on…

:frowning:

45

And, just because i choose to research my branches history doesn’t mean i’m wrong. Like i said long long ago. We thought Chan Heung had to do alot with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, until we started to research our history, kept digging and now i’m convinced the only place to learn Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history IS…FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON. Not Chan Family CHOY LEE FUT

Hi Frank,

You can learn anywhere you choose, just don’t confuse history with where you want to learn your CLF.

Can we have some peace now?

:frowning:

46

i beg to differ with you joseph.

You act like I say Chan Heung’s personal history is wrong. I’ve never done that. I admit that the chan family has a lot of holes in their story. So does the Hung Sing Kwoon.

I’ve never told someone not to join the chan family of CLF. I’ve never spoken ill of Chan Family CLF.

When i asked the questions about Jeong Yim, i wanted to demonstrate that if anyone wants to know about Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, they should 1) either go to fut san and do some research, 2) research as much material on this branch as you can.

See, I believe in the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is because of the info that comes out of it such as it’s involvement in the Hung Mun and the Revolution is easily traceable.

Until now most everybody had only heard the Chan Family version of CLF. The Hung Sing branch has always passed down our history orally. No one new that the Fut San HSK was still active undgerground until the late 1990’s. They re-emerged and since then everyone is wanting to know the history according to Jeong Hung Sing, which is slightly different to that of Chan Heung.

anyways, Chan Heung’s account of Jeong Yim seems to be really different to that of his own direct branches account. Chan Ngau Sing’s account of his sifu differs from that of Chan Heung. Yuen Hai’s account to Lau Bun differs from Chan Family CLF about Jeong Yim.

Speaking of Yuen Hai, I believe in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon so much that if we wanted to…we …Professor Lau Bun’s branch…could take advantage of the Chan Family account of Yuen Hai being Loong Gee Choi’s first student. Since Loong Gee Choy is Chan Heung’s First student, that places Yuen Hai’s lineage amongst the highest in Choy Lee Fut, even higher than Koon Pak, and such.

however, we believe in the fut san lineage of Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut.

47

lastly joseph,

all i’ve ever tried to tell people is that if you want to know about the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the Chan Family is a great secondary place to start. However, if you want to know about Jeong Yim and his Hung Sing Kwoon, then they should start right here:

http://www.hongshengguan.com
use worldlingo.com to translate pages.

Then search out what other branches say about Jeong Yim. That includes what the Chan Family says about Jeong Yim. but if the Chan Family history of Jeong Yim seems to differ from that of Jeong Yim’s history according to his very own branch, students, and their family members who were all in one way or another involved with the branch.

We cannot ever ignore the legacy Jeong Yim left behind, and there is much more to him than what the chan family has to say.

Start with the link and go from there folks. its all out there now.

48

This is where i end the argument brother Joseph.

I don’t wish to argue over the history anymore. I will promote the history and make it available for anyone who wishes to view it. Just follow my history page and links page to see if there’s anything new im doing.

You are a great source of info on the Chan Family CLF joseph. I hope you can assist me in the future to fully understand Chan Heung’s branch.

Still, i’ll go to Fut San to learn more about this branch, and i will go to Buk Sing Elders to learn more about Tam Sam and his legacy. it’s the only right thing to do.

If we only rely on Chan Family resources, then we all will miss out on the real history of each branch. People do more research on CLF and you will come to find it is more interesting and doesn’t actually stop at or with Chan Heung. Choy Lee Fut originated with Chan Heung, Jeong Yim made his contributions then developed his own brand of CLF, and Tam Sam continued to refine and redefine certain techniques and add a few more.

The Hung Sing and Buk SIng material IS NOT taught within the Chan Family CLF. So, that does not mean it isn’t CLF. It most certainly is. without a doubt CLF.

But the argument stops here, and i am more open for discussion than bickering.

hsk

49

Hi Frank,

That is great, we finally reach an end.

Believe what you like, just don’t try to change history to suit your belief, that is all we ask of you.

Cheers and I hope I don’t have to write another word on CLF history, ever again!

EJ

50

as long as the chan family does not try to push aside our history and tell US we are WRONG, and if we can all accept that each branch has a deserving history to be told, then we can all live in peace as one great Choy Lee Fut family.

we are all CLF. let’s accept each other’s history and be at peace.

once and for all.

hsk

51

oh, and i don’t try to change history.

It wasn’t the Hung Sing branch of CLF that claimed Green Grass Monk was a myth since the creation of CLF. No one until a few years ago ever claimed that Green Grass Monk was Monk Choy Fook like they do today.

If you don’t call that changing history to suit your own belief, than i’m not sure what you call it.

If i was trying to change history then i would adopt the theory that Yuen Hai was Loong Gee’s student, then I’d go around and tell the world we are the highes branch in the Chan Family of Choy Lee Fut since Loong Gee Choy was Chan Heung’s first disciple. First, not last, not in the middle, but first.

Changing history is saying that Chan Heung used the Hung Sing name first and Jeong Yim was the second one to use that name. However, as we know now that Jeong Yim’s (glorious victory) and Chan Heung’s Hung Xiong (great Sage Hung) are two very different characters. But because of my research, we come to learn that now.

Changing history is saying that there are 190 foms in the Chan Family CLF, when originally there were only 49 recorded forms. Where did the other 140 come from? and acting as if Chan Heung created each and every one.

So, when you mention changing history, please keep in mind that you are not only speaking to me, but to anyone in any branch including chan family-should not change history to suit their needs, right?

before i go, bro Joe… i have a question for you.

"Do you think that the problem with Jeong Yim started when he took over the old blind guys school and changed the schools name to his own?

52

[QUOTE=hskwarrior]lastly joseph,

all i’ve ever tried to tell people is that if you want to know about the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the Chan Family is a great secondary place to start. However, if you want to know about Jeong Yim and his Hung Sing Kwoon, then they should start right here:

http://www.hongshengguan.com
use worldlingo.com to translate pages.

QUOTE]

Hey Frank,

I was just curious about these statements from the Fut Shan website:
“Chen Xiang(1805-1875)enjoyed the prestige of the originator of Cai-Li-Fo.”

seems to contradict:
"And Zhang Hongsheng was worshipped as the father of “Cai-Li-Fo”. "

Does it mean they worship Jeurng Yim as the father of the Fut Shan branch but Chan Heung is the originator?

Maybe Fut Shan doesn’t have a pic of Chan Heung b/c when Jeurng Yim went to Fut Shan Chan Heung hasn’t passed away yet and such a tradition to put a picture on the altar is for ancestors that have already passed away?

53

Iron Silk,

There is more to the story than i’m allowed to say here. However, no Hung Sing Kwoon’s have Chan Heung’s Picture on their walls. I am referring to it now being 2006 and with the re-emergence of CLF within China, you’d think if Chan Heung had much to do with Jeong Yim, then there would be a phot of him on the walls.

here is the link if you want to translate it on worldlingo.com
http://www.fschinwoo.com/wushu/2005wuhongi.htm

B/B17

the highlighted area being Chan Heung’s name and birthdate.

Now, Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San before learning from CHan Heung. As it is passed down from Jeong Yim, he only learned from Chan Heung for about 5 years. he then went to Monk Ching Cho and studied with him for about 8 years.

According to our history, Jeong Yim only returned to Chan Heung to thank Chan Heung for all his help, possibly even to pay a visit to his former sifu. He thanked Chan Heung, and in doing so showed what he learned from Monk Ching Cho and it was at this point that Chan Heung began to add in some of the things from Jeong Yim.

Chan Heung created a Choy Lee Fut for his Chan Clan Members, and within his own bloodline is another level of CLF not taught to your lay students. Outside of this direct branch of CLF you will not learn their forms.

In Jeong Yim’s Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon he began to teach a mixture of gung fu he learned from Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho. The latter being his last sifu. The Gung Fu taught at Jeong Yim’s Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was not the same as being passed down within Chan Heung’s branch.

if you read the history, there was a long period of time when Chan Heung left Ging Mui and travelled all over. While Jeong Yim was in Fut San working and fighting along side the revolutionaries of Southern China, he developed his gung fu according to his own needs. Then shaping that into what his disciples needed.

Jeong Yim’s CLF wasn’t finished even after his own death. that’s when Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San’s Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen contain many elements of what the In and Out bagua was like.

So. there fore, as i’ve said before, Chan Heung’s gung fu and Jeong Yim’s gung fu pretty much only had the basics that were in common. Jeong Yim delevoped his own branches gung fu while Chan Heung did the same for the students of his school (who were all mainly named chan.

54

Changing history is saying that Chan Heung used the Hung Sing name first and Jeong Yim was the second one to use that name. However, as we know now that Jeong Yim’s (glorious victory) and Chan Heung’s Hung Xiong (great Sage Hung) are two very different characters. But because of my research, we come to learn that now.

Hi FRank,

Obvious you want to be shot down in flame again.

Everyone who read Chinese knows the characters for (Gloriuos Victory) Hung Sing and for (Great Sage) Hung Sing are different, you don’t need to do “research” to know that, and if you know anything of Chinese history then you will know it was not very wise to use the characeter Hung for “great” in the Qing time because it was the name of the founder of the previous Ming dynasty. You only come to know it now because you can’t read Chinese and don’t know Chinese history!

Changing history is saying that there are 190 foms in the Chan Family CLF, when originally there were only 49 recorded forms. Where did the other 140 come from? and acting as if Chan Heung created each and every one.

If you count them carefully, there are 135 to be exact and that has to do with the the numbers 3 and 5 (3X3X3X5=135) - that is with the philosophic concept of San Cai (Tian, Di and Ren - Heaven, Earth and Man) and the five cardinal directions (front, back, left, right and center including up and down).

Frank, if you can learn a bit of Chinese philosophy, Chinese history and the Chinese language, it will help you understand better the CLF history. People in the old days don’t make things up out of nothing like you do!

There are more than 49 forms and that number is not very auspicious and no respectible Chinaman will settle for this number! So if you want to make something up, make it credible to a scholar-warrior of the old school, otherwise they will just laugh you out of the clasroom.

Frank, you are shooting yourself in the feet everytime you open your trap! I don’t know whether to laugh or feeling sorry for you!

:frowning:

55

[SIZE=“2”][/SIZE]won’t this one send you for a flip…

This is a copy of a Shaolin site who records CLF history. In the begining the story was that Chan Heung either learned from Green Grass Monk, or was going to so he sent Jeong Yim instead. but he the story has Chan Heung working for the green grass monk.

Foshan Hongshengwu Museum Spring Festival

Sheng Museum of origins reported : Guangxu at the court’s, Foshan to a martial arts chief instructor in the village of Tan Temple Mount purple signs hanging out Sheng Museum, Professor for attacking.
The chief instructor went from inflammation, Xinhui Shek mouth, and his rehabilitation will Wushu-Chen people enjoy (also known as Chan enjoy); Chen Pai Hill since Guangxi eight grass monk there to learn; Grass is the Fujian Shaolin monk robe concealing the classics disciples. Chen began apprentice, water daily from San Tan Kok Peak, 4,600 food supply. He accompanied heavy iron shoes, with the end of one pair of sharp steel water tanks, on Hill Road, rugged rock formation, at a stretch to leap to undertake water tortuous hill. After similar manner practiced hard, Chen learned the grass makes.
Wushu Chen after the body of his son to Anbo, Bo and her master Zhang. Zhang finish an apprenticeship, initially located in Jiangmen Museum began showing up, take as teacher mostly stevedores, these workers are the Lion Museum, because of tyrants like, from the Museum scatter workers want to learn to walk tyrants Wushu recover Lion Museum. Chang Tai flu grievances heard, MA and tyrants contest for Taiwanese killing tyrants, then became electronic bulletin boards, located on the Museum began showing up in Lion Museum named : :-adding in the meantime Foshan, located beyond the Museum began showing up Felix, Leican, Huang Kuan, Cheung Sam David and Huang 4.
Felix is the first disciple, inherited the mantle and alms bowl Zhang. There is a tortuous read. Felix animal, is Foshan copper platinum workers. He is the Zhoujinbiao disciples, Guangxu five years (1883) 19-year-old Chen, Zhou to return, Chang Chen-worship for the division to continue their education. 1 week to bring senior researcher Chen on purpose in coming. Chen Yan see where the dragon master, and Chinese boxing Chuquan air and long, much Otherwise, inevitably Hin in color. Yan Sum know not, we also want to see Felix martial arts skills, and then ask their teachers than burning Chen. Chen told the anxious, and he immediately end the meantime moving pieces, no one is really Felix opponent.
Chen exaltation, adding with a laugh : “old fellow like me to try it!” Chan an aggressive, and undoubtedly will be judged together.
Zhang said : "I now want you to do in the east, you have to pay careful attention! "23 of fist and foot, Chen thrown down to the black in the east; Zhang Batafu up said : "You Taidayi, now I want you to fall in the west, you have learned to be careful! "But for one reason or one, Chen has thrown down to the black in the west.
Felix stood up, Zhang said : "This is you in the middle. "Sure enough several rounds, Chen black in the middle of what was thrown down. Chen was willing to take as teacher.
After training, to make the inner sheets. Subsequently adding to the Shunde Co. located Museum, and local chief instructor training for older gas declined missing hand, Chen is committed to the division revenge to the Co. with a “Yin in” approach to the chief instructor defeat. Zhang announced the presence of Jews, mantle and alms bowl to Felix. So Zhang’s presentation, and then only Chen Bishop, ancestral hall was known as the Lion. (see Chen strata, “Guangdong historical data,” 16)

56

Jeong Yim’s CLF wasn’t finished even after his own death. that’s when Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San’s Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen contain many elements of what the In and Out bagua was like.

So. there fore, as i’ve said before, Chan Heung’s gung fu and Jeong Yim’s gung fu pretty much only had the basics that were in common. Jeong Yim delevoped his own branches gung fu while Chan Heung did the same for the students of his school (who were all mainly named chan.)

Hi Frank,

Do you know the Chan Family has 8 sets of Bagua forms and they have been around since Chan Heung’s time? If Jeong Yim knew them all, then why Chan Ngau Sing has to make more of them up in Futsan?

Before you you claim Jeong Yim developed his own Kung Fu please check out what the Chan Family has got first, otherwise you will shoot yourself in the feet again.

:frowning:

57

joseph,

you don’t think you’ve proven me wrong do you?

it’s cool though. as i’ve said, my arguments over.

hsk

58

jeong Yim passed a set on to Chan Ngau Sing called In and Out bagua. the total number of moves in it was 1080. because He wanted to make it easier to learn, chan Ngau Sing dissected that form into the three set’s i’ve mentioned.

So what Chan Heung has more bagua forms than Jeong Yim. IF Jeong Yim was learning all of Chan Heung’s stuff then he should have learned those, and we should have been passing them down. but we don’t. because the In and Out bagua (only 1 set) was what Monk Ching Cho passed down to Jeong Yim, then was passed down to Chan Ngau Sing.

Now, again, why are you trying to tell me what Chan Ngau Sing was teaching? we you there? Are you going to dispute that this is what his students were practicing? How can you? you were’nt there, and you’re not a Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon disciple.

59

wait a minute joseph…

you act like Chan Heung created each and every form in HIS choy lee fut system. Now you and i both know thats is a bunch of bs, right?

so you are telling me that CHan Koon Pak never created any forms for his school?

what about Chan Yiu Chi? chan Wan Hon?

so no one contributed to the developement of Chan Heung’s CLF but him?

is that what you are telling me?

hsk

60

if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung’s 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?

hsk