Monk Ching Cho Woe Serng

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
61

flame wars…no. a converstation yes. get it straight.

now, how many people outside of the chan family new what characters Chan Heung’s branch used until recently? Half the ClF people have only heard from DFW that Chan Heung used the name hung sing leading everyone to believe that Chan Heung was using Jeong Yim’s Hung Sing.

but untill not too long ago people we able to compare the two and thats when we’ve realized that Yeah, chan heung used hung sing. but Jeong Yim’s was different, how can CHan Heung use it first?

if you read chinese and are privy to certain things thats fine. great for you.

hsk

62

wow joseph. I’m honored.

regardless of what your reasons were good or bad, you took the time out to check out my site. thanks brother.

63

let’s go brother joe. I’m waiting for your response.

If you haven’t realized yet, I’ll squeesze ya like a Boa Constrictor for information.

anything you tell me gives me more for the chan side of the pie.

regardless of my methods, i’ll get what i want.

hsk

64

Hi Frank,

“if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung’s 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?”

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn’t have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don’t you ask the Futsan people?

The theories of Yin/Yang, Bagua and Wuxing are the foundations of Chinese philosophy, so it is not surprising that CLF would have them built into the system.

As to who made them all up over time, it is hard to be sure, but Chan Yiu-Chi was definitely the first in the family systematically written them down based on knowledge passed down by his grandfather Chan Heung and his father Koon Pak. Don’t forget others may also have kept records they learned from their teachers before Yiu-Chi’s time.

Isn’t it amazing that Chen Yong-Fa actually learned from his grandfather, the same Chan Yiu-Chi and he is still alive and teaching? What other CMA can you find that nowadays? I sat in one of Barry Hale’s class in SF with Ng Fu Heng, they are dedicated and and knowledgeable people and you should check them out before you keep bashing the Chan Family.

EJ

65

Frank,

You can squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, where I come from it will never run dry! But you won’t get what you want because what you want is not there.

:smiley:

66

thanks for that joseph.

However, I do keep in touch with Fu Hang Ng’s people.

As a matter of fact, that’s a good idea. I will contact my friend there, and maybe he can ask his sifu for me.

I didn’t think of that.

be back later.

hsk

67

an oh yeah,

i haven’t bashed anyone. I have questions and want them answered. you seemed like the most logical one. but you set me on another path.

Just cause i don’t follow the chan’s account of who Jeong Yim was, what he did or what ever doesn’t mean i’m bashing anyone.

68

Or alternatively maybe he never learned them because he wasn’t interested or didn’t feel that they added anything to his knowledge. Of maybe he left his Sifu too early to ever learn them.

From my experience with the one Ba Gua set (Ba Gua Saam, the Tao Lu in my video) that I learned, it didn’t reallly add a whole lot to my fighting knowledge.

Yes, it is more difficult to execute because it is more complex and acrobatic and is definitely good training but I’m not sure as much of it is readily applicable for fighting as a form like Saap Ji Kau Dah.

If Jeong Yim was the fighter that some claim him to be then I could see him skipping over a lot of the fancier stuff in favor of the more simple and practical in fighting.

I am realizing that the number of forms that you have doesn’t equal fighting ability. If you have the core forms and tear those apart and test them under pressure then you can actually become a better fighter than those that have a myriad of forms and that’s all they ever practice. There are only so many hours in the day…if you’re practicing Tao Lu then you’re not practicing application and vice versa.

In other words, # forms doesn’t = ability to use all that knowledge.

A little bit of knowledge is all you need to be dangerous. Its what you do with that knowledge that matters.

BTW, hskwarrior is still on my ignore list. I am responding purely to what was posted in extrajoseph’s reply to Frank. I have no desire to read Frank’s posts any longer. So Frank if you are reading this don’t bother responding because I won’t be reading it.

FP

69

hahahahaha…

after 10 years of his kung fu training, the boy finally learns that its all about quality and about quantity. only those fascinated about quantity aren’t fighters at all.

what a contracdiction though. he was always ranting and raving about the 190 forms of the Chan Family. but its good to see the boy is finally starting to see the light.

and brother Joseph, i already set that in motion. and look forward to their reply. at least with my contact, i can have a logical coversation.

he and his sifu are aware of my sites and what i’m doing and i get the thumbs up from them. cool huh?

hsk

70

hskwarrior say

“Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San’s Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen”

If Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen y Cheung Kuen were made by Chan Ngau Sing , how were they known for Lau Bun ?

71

This is the second time I’ve heard of this in and out bagua form. Does anyone know the translation in Chinese?

72

Because Lau Bun learned through his sifu (yuen Hai) the most early beginnings of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. You see, Yuan Hai was a long time student of Jeong Yim, who taught the In and out Bagua Kuen.

So you can say Lau Bun has some pretty old Choy Lee Fut.

we teach Sup Gee Kau da Kuen. Ping Kuen was never a set we practiced. we have a cheung kuen from Lau Bun, but the Fut San Cheung Kuen is much different. Lau Bun’s Cheung Kuen is like Fut San’s Che Kuen, only 3 times longer.

so what ever Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai was based on the In and Out bagua kuen.

thank you for asking.

hsk

73

In and Out 8 diagrams fist.

I think the in and out part in “internal and external”

According to Chan Ngau Sing it was one of the most effective fighting forms the Hung Sing Kwoon had.

74

To tell you the truth, Lau Bun learned what ever it was that the Hung Sing Kwoon was teaching by the early 1900’s.

it makes no difference if he didn’t get the Fut San Hung SIng Ping Kuen set. We teach it now, and that’s all that matters.

we also teach the Fut San Ping Kuen, Cheung Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Lin Wan Kuen, Siu Lin Wan, Siu Cheung Kuen, Che Kuen, and a few others that comes from the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon.

But there are other forms within Lau Bun’s CLF than those sets.

75

If Jeong Yim was the fighter that some claim him to be then I could see him skipping over a lot of the fancier stuff in favor of the more simple and practical in fighting.

Hi Fu-Pow,

He did, he fought for CLF like a good trooper, but the “vision” thing came from Chan Heung and that is why he could not have been the founder of CLF nor Futsan Hung Sing, for he made his name as a fearless soldier and not as a thinking general.

One of the reasons why there are so many forms in CLF is that we need the planners as well as the doers to make a system great. A simple idea with a complex structure keeps the group together and the wheels turning smoothly.

You are a thinker, unlike Frank, so you should appreciate what I am saying. What you would do is another matter.

EJ

76

wow, that was probably the most mature statement that made allot of sense. thanks Mr Xtra :slight_smile:

77

but you eddie are fooled if you believe what joseph was saying about Jeong Yim just being a soldier and not a thinking general as jospeh puts it.

Joseph, please refrain from speaking on Jeong Yim as if you have some kind of personal knowledge on who he was. you are only a chan clan supporter. don’t bash him unless you want me to bash on Chan Heung.

Remember what you once told me that you can embarrass the Buk Sing Branch because you said you have knowledge that tam sam wasn’t a real fighter at all. i’m sorry, maybe it was someone from Li Iu Ling’s lineage that emailed the to me. still, it came from the mouth of a chan family member who acts like he knows things bout other branches he has nothing to do with.

care to explain that away joseph.

for those who read this forum, can you see how the Chan Family is always trying to keep CLF as a whole in their court. as if “let’s not talk about them…let me tell you about Chan heung instead!!!”“”

Jeong Yim was more famous than Chan Heung when it came to the gung fu world. Jeong Yim mad Choy Lee Fut famous.

and joseph, you are utterly and completely wrong when you say that jeong yim didn’t found the fut san Hung SIng kwoon. you don’t know what you are talking about.

its sad that people don’t do the research with an open mind here. they would come to find out that the chan family is NOT the place to learn about Jeong Yim.

For example joseph just said because of the vision thing, jeong yim was only a fearless soldier while emplying that CHan Heung was the master general. HA.

Jeong Yim’s name once again is bigger in the whole scheme of things when it comes to CLF. It was his branch that got the more fame.

and you think i am a fighter not a general, a true general never reveals what he does thinks or wants to say until the right time.

Joseph, you have failed to prove me wrong. especially, with language as "he could not have been" instead of he wasn’t.

a thinker joseph, doesn’t have the time to practice fighting, he is wasting all his time trying to tell others how to fight instead of sharpening up his skills.

joseph…you stay the thinker ok.

78

I agree with you to some extent. However, I think ideally, as martial artists, we should be both. If you only ever think about martial arts and never “do” martial arts then there is a disconnect between the mind and the body. The theory is important but it must be continually tested against “reality.”

I’m going to go off on a tangent here because I’ve really been wanting to share my latest thinking with people. (I think you’re right, I am a thinker Joseph:D )

Recently I’ve really changed the way I’m thinking about martial arts.
Basically, I would break martial arts training in CLF into 3 aspects.

  1. Fundamentals:

-Conditioning (all kinds and Tao Lu can definitely be a part of conditioning)
-Single techniques
-Short combinations
-2-man coreographed or semi-coreographed partner work

  1. Tao Lu (forms)

  2. San Shou (ie freesparring of all kinds)

All aspects are important and overlap and should integrate with each other. I think that you can use this roadmap to some extent for weapons as well.

However, some people in TCMA seem to only emphasize Tao Lu. I especially think beginners should not spend a lot of time on Tao Lu.

Fundamentals should come first, then some Tao Lu, then San Shou…then all should be integrated and trained simultaneously. Its like most in TCMA have the order screwed up. Mostly it is a little bit of fundamentals, lots of Tao Lu and free sparring is rare or not at all.

This way you end up with good peformers and bad fighters.

Anyways, that’s my experience based on my 10 years of dues paid.

FP

79

Why forms?

The topic of why have more than one form, or why have forms at all may be a “been there, done that” topic.
For a perspective on why have form/s, especially when there are repeating techniques and even sequences of techniques, here is a very good article:

http://www.wle.com/thePen/0001.html

People talk about making your techniques and kungfu personalised and work for you. But if you remember that knowledge is accumulative—take a look at science and how through the ages the knowledge is built upon the work of our predecessors. You can see further when you stand on the shoulders of giants.

So it would make sense that if the many clf forms are used to teach and cater for differing body types, athletic ability, aptitude and personality how to use the techniques energetically and strategically to best suit the type of individual.

For example, a short , thin and agile guy may benefit from studying the monkey form whereas a big, bulky guy may find the elephant form more suitable. You can learn a lot from watching nature. You don’t normally expect an elephant to fight the same way as a monkey, but they if they fight then they fight!
So if the predecessors have already done the “planning” and “design”, wouldn’t it be wise to make use of it rather than try to reinvent the wheel. It might save a lot of time, and in fact, standing on the shoulders of giants can let you see further than the guy who refuse to acknowledge he is shorter.

But of course if your forms are nothing more than a performance choreography or an exercise, than yeah you probably benefit little from learning a lot of them.
But if the training philosophy and essence of the forms are kept intact, and the different energy training is understood, there may be good reason to take advantage of different training with different forms.
Do you not think if the predecessors deemed it necessary to record the forms and associated knowledge for future generations, there may be something more them than just an exercise in moving your limbs and body?

80

Hi Fu-Pow,

After doing nearly 50 years of CLF (and still enjoying it everyday, it is not a due to me, it is a pleasure), I would like to add two comments to yours.

The first is regarding martial and civil (wen-wu in Chinese), as our body gets older, we will naturally slow down and become physically weaker, so the training of the mind become more crucial than the body and the methodology for body conditioning and the fighting techniques used will also have to change (I hardly do any tao lu these days but I can still teach them if required).

This is where CLF has an advantage in keeping us at top condition relating to our age, both mentally and physically because we have qigong as well as kung fu, or some would say we have both the internal as well as the external aspects of a martial art.

The second is regarding your 3 aspects, I think you should include “lian neigong” (training the internal) and “da muren zhuang” (strking the wooden dummies) in your routine. One is very effective in training the internal and the other the external. Again these two are the unique characters of CLF.

Remember the best fighter is one who don’t need to fight to win a battle, therefore we should be an accomplished civil as well as martial artist, that is a thinker and a fighter at the same time like you said.

This will be my last posting for a while, I’ve too much to do and not enough time left to train. Talking to Frank is a real waste of time, he can be a foot soldier for Futsan for the rest of his life for all I care. I am sure this will not be the end of the conversation.

Blah, blah, blah…

Cheers, my CLF brothers,

EJ