modern verses traditional

I find many misconceptions widely circulated in the US CMA community perplexing.

In China, contemporary and traditional styles are taught side-by-side. Most contemporary wushu programs are coached by traditional style masters. The animosity between traditional style and modern wushu is a purely American desease. It does not exist in China.

Some of the problem stems from the actual history of CMA in America. Since most early Chinese immigrants to the US were Cantonese it was no surprise that the dominant MA style were from the start, Southern.

Cha Chuan, a style I have been studying for 20 years, is the most popular style in China. Yet, until recently it was unheard of in the US.

Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun; styles considered rare and exotic in China is the most popular style in the US.

It is no wonder that many Americans studying “traditional Kung Fu” views Modern Wushu as some kind of a strange dance.

It is sad that many tournaments catering to traditional styles are often hostile to wushu. American CMA leadership have a dutie to educate the so-called “traditionalists”.

We receive enough discriminations from the Karate and TKD people. Why are we creating new discriminations within the CMA community?

Hi-

Where I live, there are some fairly well known traditional Kungfu teachers who teach Choy Li fut, Wing Chun and Hung Gar and as well, they offer contemporary wu shu as a seperate curriculum.

cheers

“The animosity between traditional style and modern wushu is a purely American desease. It does not exist in China.”

So? CMA is just as bad or just as good in China as in America. There are just as many skilled people willing to test their skills here in America. By just as many, of course, I mean not very many at all. My teacher frequently travels to China, and he has run into many people that want to act tough because they are chinese and he is an American, but when he asks to exchange knowledge with them (in a very friendly fashion, might I add), they decline. He even had one practitioner challenge him, then when he accepted, the challenger declined.

I’m not saying this only happens in China (though of course there there is the added element of saving face because he is American). But I am saying that it’s not true to say things like “Why are things like this in America? In China, no one is like that.” The fact is, that very few people are willing to put aside their pride and learn a lesson from someone. Also, this way no one can be taught any real lessons, and then we get to where we are today. Rant over…

If it’s just as bad in China, does it justify perpetuating discrimination in America? Shouldn’t justice start where you stand?

Gimmi a break…
I actualy liked many of the points you brought up in your post but a few of the things are simply grating on me.

Lets face facts for a second.
During the cultrual revolution China effectively BANNED fighting arts. My sifu and his father were forced to practice application work behind closed doors.

Suddenly during the 80s China realises its missing out on a hell of a lot of money. Suddenly Wushu appears, compleately endorsed by the govenment and quite obviousliy designed for performance as opposed to combat.

Now fair enough i can understand that Wushu takes an incredible amount of skill to perform well, i can even concede that with the right training some fighting skill could be gleaned from the practice.

However it doesnt change the fact that Wushu is an art invented to milk money from spectators - not fighting.

The reason its alongside Traditional arts is that you often cant get govenment accreditation to teach unless you know the standarised Wushu forms.

I understand its unfair to take the skill element away from wushu practioners. However i dont pretend that i can move like they do and i dont like it when they pretend they can fight like someone who trains specificaly for fighting can.

The two things are very different, combat doesnt have to get applause its just need to do damage.

I will give Wushu performers props as fighters when i start seeing some of them actualy performing plausible application work and not simply seeing how many times they can spin in the air or how low they can hold a bow stance.

This doesnt mean i hate Wushu or i think it needs to be stopped or anything else. I just really believe in calling a spade a spade, its fairly obvious Wushu is not designed for combat why bother trying to advertise it as something its not.

Re: modern verses traditional

Originally posted by Dai Yoshida
Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun; styles considered rare and exotic in China is the most popular style in the US.

I don’t agree with that.

My sifu who has trained in Black Tiger since age 12 (He’s 55 now) has many uncles and other relatives that are Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut masters in China.My Si Gung Wong Cheung was a Hung Gar Master before he learned Black Tiger.My sifu learned some Hung Gar when he was a child from his Grandfather before he learned Black Tiger.

I can’t see Hung Gar or Choy Lay Fut being rare in China.Or Wing Chun for that matter.Cha Chuan maybe very popular in China these days,but that does not mean Hung Gar,Choy Lay Fut,or Wing Chun are rare.I know my style of Black Tiger is very rare. Even in China where Grandmaster Wong Cheung taught it for over 40 yrs.

jeff:)

“During the cultrual revolution China effectively BANNED fighting arts. “

This is QUITE true. However, NOT all of the knowledgeable masters died or fled. Modern Wushu was NOT started post Cultural Revolution. It started back in the early 1950’s and people like Wang Ziping were involved in it. In 1960, Traditional and Modenr Wushu were one and the same. The FIRST team to ever demonstrate outside of China was invited to perform in Burma. The men’s head coach I don’t recall. The women’s head coach was Wang Jurong – a 100% traditional Chaquan person. The coach for the entire team was none other than Wang Ziping himself. This selection was NOT one where Wang Jurong was selected because of her father. The actual order was that the decision to go was made, Madame Wang Jurong was selected to coach the women’s team, and then, just a couple of weeks before the trip, they still had not determined who would head the team. The coaches, officials, and entire team all unanimously selected Wang Ziping.

In 1966 The Cultural Revolution started. Prior to that time, the PRC’s government embraced ALL of Wushu. I have photos of Wang Ziping performing Green Dragon Sword for a group of officials…that included Chou Enlai and Mao Tsetung. Given that Wang was a famous traditional master, it is highly doubtful that the grand conspiracy that some put forth existed…otherwise, Wang would have never been at such an event…much less performing.

In fact, after the cultural Revolution, on Wang Ziping’s 100th birthday, there was a celebration and demonstration. He is the ONLY master to ever receive such an honor..and that WAS posthumously.

In 1976, the Cultural Revolution officially ended. The colleges reopened. Now, you have people entering the Sports colleges to study Wushu officially. Unlike previous generations, these students often had NEVER don wushu prior to attending the college (By Wushu, I mean Martial Art…and no specific Contemporary or Traditional). They had no basics. The teachers were also a bit gun shy. They had come off of 10 years where they were forbidden to teach. They were now being told to teach…so they were obviously a bit hesitant about how much to teach and how strict to be with the students.

This has changed somewhat but many of these older masters have retired, died…and some of the new ones date back to this time just after 1976…so their knowledge may be lacking in some areas. But it is NOT all gone.

“Suddenly during the 80s “

Not really SUDDENLY. Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple movie was made in 1978. The Beijing Wushu team performed for Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon…Nixon left office BEFORE 1976. So, the Beijing team was controlled and allowed to train..but that was about it. The re-emergence was a natural progression of what was happening in the 1960’s but with the noted absence of some of the more knowledgeable teachers. Shanghai and Beijing maintained good teachers. In fact, the Beijing contingent tends to be more performance oriented and the Shanghai folks tended to hold to keeping the martial alive and well.

“However it doesnt change the fact that Wushu is an art invented to milk money from spectators - not fighting.”

Aside from the few times that there are teams performing, there is NO money to be had. There are national competitions, local and regional as well in China. If it were about money, NO ONE there has any so it would not happen.

“The reason its alongside Traditional arts is that you often cant get govenment accreditation to teach unless you know the standarised Wushu forms.”

That is to be a professional teacher. There are any number of people teaching privately and in parks…and a number of them bilking unsuspecting foreigners out of money. Some are good and are not. Hit any large park around 7 AM and you will see them.

“I understand its unfair to take the skill element away from wushu practioners. However i dont pretend that i can move like they do and i dont like it when they pretend they can fight like someone who trains specificaly for fighting can.”

If you never train combat, you cannot fight. This applies to people who do Traditional as well. However, given the speed and ability developed in the Modern training, it is much easier to teach them power and timing and combat than those who train Traditional in a halfast way….which is what you see more than often.

“I will give Wushu performers props as fighters when i start seeing some of them actualy performing plausible application work and not simply seeing how many times they can spin in the air or how low they can hold a bow stance.”

Take the stance out of there and I will agree with you….Stance work is basic to Traditional Wushu. The new routines ARE getting strange with the acrobatics…but these are the newest 1999-2001 routines – NOT the ones most people see. The ARE bad routines. But the routines is not the only thing trained. Basics, basics, and more basics… those classes are rough and good for ANY style.

“its fairly obvious Wushu is not designed for combat why bother trying to advertise it as something its not.”

Mainly because you are making generalizations based upon what you think to be the case in China and what may be the case in your area. That is like the 4 blind men and the elephant.

One interesting note is that not only were martial arts for fighting banned during the cultural revolution, but they were banned during the Qing as well. Doesn’t mean people didn’t practice, but martial arts were made illegal back then too. Most people think that everybody did kungfu and that it was everywhere, but really that’s not true.

where ya’ at..

Wing Chun is not a necessarily a popular martial art on the Mainland and Taiwan. It was always considered a very minor boxing style, and kinda’ still is. There are quite a few schools on Hong Kong, but Hong Kong is not necessarily a “hot bed” of TCMA (when compared to Taiwan and the mainland).

The term Wu Shu is misleading. I know that Wu Shu nowadays means acrobatics, thrills, chills and spills- straight up performance art. Those practitioners are awesome athletes and I’d bet they could handle themselves against the untrained AND trained martialists.

For flash and dash and as a publicity tool for an artform, WuShu represents the epitome of martial athleticism in China. Korea has WTF Taekwondo, Japan has Kyokushinkai and JKA Shotokan. These are general interpretations of those country’s martial traditions. I would choose a Wu Shu stylist over a TKD or Japanese Karate guy to fight beside me any day.

Just as the WTF, K1 or JKA don’t necessarily detail those country’s fighting traditions, WuShu is but a general representaion, with some fluff, of Chinese MAs. It gives the unknowing a sense of China’s MAs. It doesn’t denote the depth of them though. Just as Shotokan and Kyokushin are not completely accurate representations of Okinawa’s and Japan’s “Karate”. They are decent examples of a type of karate though.

My basic description of how I felt modern should be trained.

I’d say modern wushu is more like “basic training”… or maybe elementary through high school. And traditional(or classical) is more like college. In modern(taught properly) you first focus on flexability, speed, strength, and agility. After you’ve developed well in these attributes, you start learning more form work. Then you start taking techniques from form representing chin na, throwing, punching & kicking and learn to apply them against a partner in two person drills and sparring games. Next you work more on conditioning your body more to hit with force and be hit with force. Then when you’re ready you move onto more free sparring type training. Once you’re good at all this, you then move on to traditional wushu, taking your training more in depth.

The difference I most notice between modern and traditional people, is the modern people tend only train this part: “In modern(taught properly) you first focus on flexability, speed, strength, and agility.”
and the traditionalists skip straight to “college” without building a foundation, or leave things out of that begining part.

the traditionalists skip straight to “college” without building a foundation, or leave things out of that begining part.

Errr…that may be your experience but I think the “traditionalist” or one who is taught and trained in a traditional manner who did nothing but stance work and basic drills for their first year would not agree with you, me thinks.

That WOULD be traditional…but virtually n one does that anymore.

A traditional approach would be stances, Ya Tui (leg pressing), drills of everything…but not much else…for a good while.

For example, traditional Shuai Jiao - first year you do nothing but basic body conditioning and learn how to fall. You don’t get near another person for partner drills…

Then, after you can fall from any position on just about any surface, you are ready to train with a partner…to be thrown but not throw.

Training would be 6 days a week or 7. Traditional training meant 2 to 3 hours in the morning and another 2 to 3 hours in the evening…and life in between.

Anyone know anybody outside of China that actually does that much AND has a job.

I spent the 1st yr of my Black Tiger training in Ma Bo.My entire class time was spent in Ma Bo while doing different hand techniques.

To be honest it sucked and hurt!:smiley:

But i’d do it all over again.Even now in class i spend alot of time in Ma Bo.My sifu is very strict when it comes to the basics.

Thus my signature!

jeff:)

IMO, contemporary & traditional wushu spring from the same root: basics, basics, basics.

If a contemporary instructor doesn’t stress basics enough, the forms, no matter how flowery or acrobatic, don’t look good. It’s the same for traditional. And because both “ways” build upon common basics, a traditional student can transition to contemporary and vice versa.

There’s 1 positive thing I’ve seen from contemporary wushu: because it has been developed as a modern sport, coaches have been able to move past traditional trappings (i.e., “don’t lift weights,” etc.) and find better approaches to maximum performance.

Originally posted by GLW
[B]That WOULD be traditional…but virtually no one does that anymore.

Training would be 6 days a week or 7. Traditional training meant 2 to 3 hours in the morning and another 2 to 3 hours in the evening…and life in between.

Anyone know anybody outside of China that actually does that much AND has a job. [/B]

Well that’s true not many do train that way anymore.But there are schools that do still train very hard.My class is only once a wk saturday ,but it’s 6-8 hrs long.My sifu teaches us the exact same way he learned Black Tiger from Grandmaster Wong Cheung.

jeff:)

Errr…that may be your experience but I think the “traditionalist” or one who is taught and trained in a traditional manner who did nothing but stance work and basic drills for their first year would not agree with you, me thinks.

I don’t know, I think these guys(the ones that have been around awhile at least) would realize they’re special cases… if you take into account everyone who claimed to be traditional. I’d say there’s a difference between training a traditional style and training traditionaly.

I don’t know, I think these guys(the ones that have been around awhile at least) would realize they’re special cases… if you take into account everyone who claimed to be traditional. I’d say there’s a difference between training a traditional style and training traditionaly.

I certainly agree to that.

Re: modern verses traditional

Originally posted by Dai Yoshida
Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun; styles considered rare and exotic in China is the most popular style in the US.

Excuse me? Those styles are among the most KNOWN styles in Southern-China and are widely respected throughout China. According to statics, 1/3 who practise CMA in Asia practise CLF/Hung ga (statics are inaccurate though).

Don’t know where did you get this info, but I think it doesn’t make sense.

In CHINA, Wing Chun is a little known style. It is known primarily because of Bruce Lee. It is considered nonmainstream and a bitoff the beaten path.

Choy Li Fut is not widely seen either. It is viewed more as a hybrid and a bit unusual.

Hung Gar is more widely known. However, there are many vairants of Hung Gar - Hong Jia Quan… Most of those outside of China tie their Hung Gar to Wong Fei Hong and his vairant. That is only one of about 30 branches.

There is a lot of diversity there and the Wong Fei Hong branch is more widely seen outside of China than in.

In fact, the contemporary Nanquan routine attempted to bring together the common features of all of the Hong styles into a single routine. Then, the adde some quicker stepping to make it a bit more interesting. After all, watchina a person doing the breathing parts of a routine for 3 minutes is BORING…and some really do that…

there are even books published in Hong Kong claiming to be Choy Li fut that are NOT. Two I have seen are routines with Madame Wang Jurong doing routines from Wang Ziping (drawings of course) but claiming to be Choy Li Fut.