mma fighter gets reality check

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
41

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;752908]Hi SevenStar

The point is his training didnt do him any good. The lesson is dont think you are a tough guy just becuz you think you have some training or experience.

It is your impression it was a lucky punch. You are assuming that, you dont actually know! It is a more likely assumption that he was blindsided. That is tactics not luck.[/QUOTE]

there are two accounts of the story:

  1. he tried to start a fight and got mollywocked by the guy, who was acting in self defense.

  2. he was running to help his friends and got mollywocked.

if the first is true, then he could not have been blindsided. a blindsided punch is not acting in self defense.

if the second is true, then YOU are the one assuming, because both he and his friend are alive. according to that version of the story, three guys were trying to jump his friend.

42

[QUOTE=JetLi’sFearless;752981]sometimes u dont have a choice, liek if u live in the hood, visit a hood wher eu get checked, go to a foreign country ran by hoods to visit ur family, etc.[/QUOTE]

this coming from a guy who’s only experiences in the hood are lived through his imaginary ex con friend who likes to fight a lot…:rolleyes:

43

LOL at the need to see MMA fail because of the lack of TMA recognition. Why can’t you just enjoy the sport and be happy that martial arts are stepping into the lime light. Oh, wait…probably cause they aren’t airing Kata tourneys on PPV and making millions.

It’s sad that people are so martially xenophobic that essentially they want MMA (MARTIAL ARTS) to fail because their arts are represented properly. Instead of comiserating in it’s failure, why don’t you train so you can properly represent your art in THIS VENUE!

44

[QUOTE=Crosshandz;752928]First of let me start out by saying that its always a shame whenever anyone gets hurt. I wasn’t there cannot make judgements on the incident or how it started but O’haire’s eye and face sound quite badly damaged and that is a cause to regret.

Somewhere along the line this thread became a MMA vs TMA debate but really what happened to O’haire begs a question of willingness. I’m a south Londoner in my neck of the woods shooting and stabbing people is the norm. Last week a gang stabbed a 15 year old boy with a poker through his chest outside my next door neighbours house.

No form of competition fighting is real. I’ve been to real fights fought on concrete in the middle of council estates (which American’s call projects) and that was real and that has generally convinced me that a lot of guys take themselves too seriously. Whatever you train at the end of the day the only thing that matters is intent and power. Are you training to kill? And do you have the power to kill? Cos as a martial artist thats what you need.

The difference between O’haire and the other guy was not alchohol it was the fact that the dude that messed up his face did not have a second thought about doing it. Street fighters, real street fighters, are brutal. They will push you and while you gain your ground reach into the nearest dustbin rip out a bottle and smash it across your face. You take on one guy you turn your back and bang you’re taking on six and if you dont have the power to stop each one with one strike dont be surprised if you find a blunt object crashing against the back of your head or someone’s knife slicing across the back of your knee.

To me what this incident shows is that regardless of MMA or TMA a lot of guys train for competition and not for self-defence. A lot of guys live in self-contentment at the level they’ve achieved because they have the moves to take out a guy in a regulated one on one format. Now dont think I am hating on the achievements of full contact fighters either in MMA or TMA. Cage or Lei Tai its all good. Sakuraba, Su-Dong Chen…no doubt these BMF’s could rip it up on the concrete. But are they the norm or the exceptions?

Me personally. I know I’m not an exception right now and I’m training to change that. I am not too proud to say that my skills are not at the level where my first move would not be to get around the nearest guy and run for my life. But make no mistake about it I am not going to allow the situation to go unaddressed. I dont intend to pick fights but I do intend to be in a position where if cornered someday soon I will be able to finish fights.

What happened to O’haire should beg the question to all: am I training for self-defence or for sport? I know where I lay.[/QUOTE]

that was one of the best posts I’ve read in a while… other than mine, of course. :smiley:

45

[QUOTE=CaptinPickAxe;753006]LOL at the need to see MMA fail because of the lack of TMA recognition. Why can’t you just enjoy the sport and be happy that martial arts are stepping into the lime light. Oh, wait…probably cause they aren’t airing Kata tourneys on PPV and making millions.

It’s sad that people are so martially xenophobic that essentially they want MMA (MARTIAL ARTS) to fail because their arts are represented properly. Instead of comiserating in it’s failure, why don’t you train so you can properly represent your art in THIS VENUE![/QUOTE]

How about wanting MMA to succeed and wipe out all other schools because you are mad at CMA teachers who seem only interested in pocketing $ at the expense of their students?

Is that wrong?

46

[QUOTE=neilhytholt;753009]How about wanting MMA to succeed and wipe out all other schools because you are mad at CMA teachers who seem only interested in pocketing $ at the expense of their students?

Is that wrong?[/QUOTE]

It’s called survival of the fittest. Martial Darwinism. If people feel they aren’t getting the bang for their buck at the McKwoon and find it at a MMA gym, is it MMA’s fault? Or that of an educated consumer? Also, MMA and TMA has it’s down sides. Neither are saints, but to sit and wish failure instead of success is just hating.

Are you supporting sifus who dupe their students for cash, Neil?

47

[QUOTE=CaptinPickAxe;753011]It’s called survival of the fittest. Martial Darwinism. If people feel they aren’t getting the bang for their buck at the McKwoon and find it at a MMA gym, is it MMA’s fault? Or that of an educated consumer? Also, MMA and TMA has it’s down sides. Neither are saints, but to sit and wish failure instead of success is just hating.

Are you supporting sifus who dupe their students for cash, Neil?[/QUOTE]

Personally, I hope that MMA places wipe all the McDojos and McKwoons off the map, because I’m tired of them bilking unsuspecting students.

Better people take nothing at all than McWhatever, and the people who are serious can do MMA.

And no, I don’t go to ANY teachers.

48

This is blind hate. And stupidity to boot. To think that there is nothing to be learned from CMA is plain retarded. Would I go to a Shaolin school to learn how to grapple? No, but that doesn’t mean that they lack interesting theories in striking. What it boils down to, Neil, is that you are trying to find the quick fix. At a glance, yes MMA is a quick fix. However, if you look deeper MMA isn’t a martial art but a rule set for matches. I guarentee when you go to a MMA gym, you’ll be learning a couple of martial arts. Some of which may be considered “CMA garbage” in your eyes. It’s all about application. It just so happens when you train for MMA, it’s much more application oriented.

49

So you don’t train, Neil?

50

[QUOTE=CaptinPickAxe;753013]This is blind hate. And stupidity to boot. To think that there is nothing to be learned from CMA is plain retarded. Would I go to a Shaolin school to learn how to grapple? No, but that doesn’t mean that they lack interesting theories in striking. What it boils down to, Neil, is that you are trying to find the quick fix. At a glance, yes MMA is a quick fix. However, if you look deeper MMA isn’t a martial art but a rule set for matches. I guarentee when you go to a MMA gym, you’ll be learning a couple of martial arts. Some of which may be considered “CMA garbage” in your eyes. It’s all about application. It just so happens when you train for MMA, it’s much more application oriented.[/QUOTE]

No, I’m sorry, it’s not blind hate. I’ve gotten screwed over by too many CMA teachers in my life, and I’m tired of them bilking unsuspecting people.

And I’m not looking for a ‘quick fix’. There is no fix. IMHO the system is unfixable.

As for “Much More Application Oriented”. Why the hell are you going to martial arts class if you don’t want Application Oriented? If you want to work on your character go to Sunday School.

51

[QUOTE=CaptinPickAxe;753014]So you don’t train, Neil?[/QUOTE]

I don’t go to schools anymore. Not much point – they all require you to learn their style to get to apps practice.

Which is why MMA seems to be better probably for most people out there because they don’t have to do any stupid forms.

Don’t get me wrong – I used to argue against MMA for a long time but after looking at a lot of schools around here they seem to be the only schools doing sufficient apps practice.

There are rumors of other schools, and I need to check out Leong’s Hung Gar to see if it really is like Goldenarms says, but the apps oriented places seem to be few and far between now, and everybody else is wasting their money.

And why waste money and think you can defend yourself when you really can’t? To study culture? If you want to study culture then don’t call it martial arts, call it culture class.

52

[QUOTE=Chief Fox;752932]How do you know? Where you there? The only information that we have is that he got his eye busted up and that is all. Was he hit with a board or was he hit with a fist? We don’t know. Was he suckerpunched like the article says or was it a true fight? We don’t know. How much alcohol was in his system? We don’t know.

You are basing your conclusion on very little information.[/QUOTE]

Hi Chief Fox,

I agree we have very little information, but there is reason behind my conclusion. That does not mean it is a correct conclusion. It means it is not an arbitrary conclusion. A reasoned conclusion provides for a greater probability of correctness than a blind guess or assumptions based upon no information at all.

If we presume that training is to keep ourselves from harm, we know from the scant facts he was not protected from harm. A secondary goal of training would be, if injured, minimize the damage received. He in fact received great bodily injury. He was not killed and that is good, but the article did not say anything about him being continually pummeled once he was down. The article implied he was out for the count after the initial strike and was disregarded as a further threat. Therefore his training did not protect him from greater harm than he already had received. We may still presume that his training may have kept him from greater harm, but we don’t really know that at this time. Therefore, I think it safe to presume that at best his training did nothing to protect him and at the least it did very little.

53

[QUOTE=SevenStar;753003]there are two accounts of the story:

  1. he tried to start a fight and got mollywocked by the guy, who was acting in self defense.

  2. he was running to help his friends and got mollywocked.

if the first is true, then he could not have been blindsided. a blindsided punch is not acting in self defense.

if the second is true, then YOU are the one assuming, because both he and his friend are alive. according to that version of the story, three guys were trying to jump his friend.[/QUOTE]

Hi SevenStar,

My statement:

It is a more likely assumption that he was blindsided.

clearly implies I understand I am making assumptions as well. My comment just posted to Chief Fox makes clear the reasoning I used to come to my conclusion. Please note it also implies I understand my conclusion could be wrong.

Neither picking a fight nor responding to a fight requires any actual demonstration of skill.

Blindsided merely means surprised by a strike, that is, being struck without prior knowledge a strike is coming or being struck without “enough” prior knowledge to respond effectively. He did not respond effectively. He was severely injured. It is irrelevant whether he was responding to a fight or picking a fight. Surprised is surprised! Surprise is a tactic and it is effective.

If he was squared off and prepared to be struck then his training is even more inadequate than I have implied in my previous comments! At any rate being struck hard enough to cave in your face is also being struck hard enough to kill you, so he is very lucky. It is just as possible he reacted just enough to keep from being killed.

54

What you need to do is develope a killer instinct. be abel to attack fast and first and not stop or let him catch their breath, its hard to do this unless you grew up in the hood, everyone has natural inclinations to resist turning something into violence and will infact put themselves in a vulnerable spot to not turn it itno violence, but it needs to be done. Generally the one who is the more violent person wins 90% of the time, not the most skilled person.

55

None of the Above.
What this proves is that anyone, no matter who, what, how you are trained, can get hit. It can be anyone’s fight. I could win today, you could win tomorrow. If we fight and my biorhythm,hormone levels, or whatever is off, I have a bad day, you have a good day-I could zig when I should’ve zagged, your finger could graze my eyeball-it’s done. Over.
Have you ever fought someone who was your equal? All it depends on is who gets in the shot. Have you ever fought and beaten someone who was better-because you got in the shot? It happens all the time.
This is why the more you train, the less likely you will start, or get into fights. You begin to realize that anyone and everyone can have their day. We are vulnerable, and fights are serious matters. We train harder to attempt to minimize the occurance, but your body and mind are different from day to day. Style, MMA, TCMA,whathaveyou is not the point.

56

Clearly, this article only goes to show that striking arts are superior to ground fighting arts. Wrestling, even at top-tier professional levels, does not train a man to face real-world violence.

I’m willing to bet, 10:1, that the man O’Haire was fighting had some kind of traditional Chinese training.

57

[QUOTE=Mega-Foot;760162]Clearly, this article only goes to show that striking arts are superior to ground fighting arts. Wrestling, even at top-tier professional levels, does not train a man to face real-world violence.

I’m willing to bet, 10:1, that the man O’Haire was fighting had some kind of traditional Chinese training.[/QUOTE]

i’l take that bet

u now officially owe me money

58

[QUOTE=JetLi’sFearless;753521]What you need to do is develope a killer instinct. be abel to attack fast and first and not stop or let him catch their breath, its hard to do this unless you grew up in the hood, everyone has natural inclinations to resist turning something into violence and will infact put themselves in a vulnerable spot to not turn it itno violence, but it needs to be done. Generally the one who is the more violent person wins 90% of the time, not the most skilled person.[/QUOTE]

Only people from the hood have killer instinct:rolleyes:

59

That’s because they can’t afford any of the many newer video game systems that have come out since Killer Instinct hit the market.

They’re all still playing NEO GEO.

60

if the first is true, then he could not have been blindsided. a blindsided punch is not acting in self defense.

Reply]
Not really, if someone is charging in on you and you blind side them unexpectedly (especially if they are sure they have you), you ARE defending yourself.

we fight and my biorhythm,hormone levels, or whatever is off, I have a bad day, you have a good day-I could zig when I should’ve zagged, your finger could graze my eyeball-it’s done. Over

Reply]
Ummm sorry, but no. MMA/BJJ and the gracies have already proven Eye Gouges don’t work, and are not effective techniques. This is especially so when one is a TCMA practitioner, but not as true when they are BJJ practiioners.

Clearly, this article only goes to show that striking arts are superior to ground fighting arts.

Reply]
I could also prove that one guy had really good striking skills, and the other had relly bad striking skills.

Wrestling, even at top-tier professional levels, does not train a man to face real-world violence.

Reply]
No, they don’t, HOWEVER competition fighters are better prepared for real violence than those who just train the corner dojo, or do nothing at all.

I’m willing to bet, 10:1, that the man O’Haire was fighting had some kind of traditional Chinese training.

Naww, O’hair is just a crappy striker that met a good striker.