David Ross Comment on Self-Defense

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Ross makes an interesting comment about people who criticize Sand Da and MMA for not having self-defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4

I think that people accept the idea that MMA and San Da work in all situation and that people can defend themselves with it in the streets. The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

A good analogy of using full-on kickboxing to defeat a street fighter is treating a ho like a housewife. I get what I want in the end either way, but one is a bunch of unnecessary effort.

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The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

in a self defense situation would you not be concerned with “getting the job” done? I would rather over do than under because in the end it’s my life in a self defense sit. and I will put it all on the line to keep it.

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[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1029035]in a self defense situation would you not be concerned with “getting the job” done? I would rather over do than under because in the end it’s my life in a self defense sit. and I will put it all on the line to keep it.[/QUOTE]

The criticism is adding more effort towards the same end not the end results changing.

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There is some truly brilliant research on adrenaline response and apparent conditioning, functional strenght etc (Taai Gihk lurking about?)

I suggest you read it, really. Because when you understand that in a “real situation” you are going to need to be as conditioned, strong, forceful, whatever word you want to use to get the job done, well

And remember, for “real” if you don’t get the job done, you aren’t just going to be upset you lost a match

eh, and also, again, the more resistance and alive training you do the better your adrenaline response will be

just saying

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1029095]There is some truly brilliant research on adrenaline response and apparent conditioning, functional strenght etc (Taai Gihk lurking about?)

I suggest you read it, really. Because when you understand that in a “real situation” you are going to need to be as conditioned, strong, forceful, whatever word you want to use to get the job done, well

And remember, for “real” if you don’t get the job done, you aren’t just going to be upset you lost a match

eh, and also, again, the more resistance and alive training you do the better your adrenaline response will be

just saying[/QUOTE]

My point has nothing to do with training method. I am not opposed to conditioning, functional strength, mma, kickboxing, cross-training, nor San Da. I am only making the point that we kickboxers and mma-ist don’t always package nice efficient ways of dealing with street fighters thus expending too much energy to get a job done or as I said, “Treating a ho like a housewife.”

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It sounds like Ross has a good program that he offers.

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1029106]It sounds like Ross has a good program that he offers.[/QUOTE]

He does. It is only a minor point that I am making. We reality fighters spend a lot of time preparing for the best competition instead of for the competition that we probably got into martial arts to stop in the first place. Hence, we might need 6 moves to defeat a street fighter instead of 2 because we don’t capitalize on his inherent flaws. IMO, if I encounter a streetfighter and I wind up assuming a stance, putting my hands up, and throwing a couple of jabs then I have messed up.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029037]The criticism is adding more effort towards the same end not the end results changing.[/QUOTE]

A tiger will fight a rabbit the same way as to fight against a lion. The reason is simple. That tiger doesn’t know any other way. Is that bad? I don’t think so.

Of course you only need to be just a little bit better than your opponent and not showing off too much. Like my friend used to say that his opponent wasn’t good enough for him to pull out his best moves yet. But how many people can reach to that level?

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the simplest answers are usually the best. Like someone stated above I would rather train against someone resistant and under pressure than to train for the what ifs and I would do this type of thing. Real fights are not carbon copies of what your 2 step sparring or forms give you. getting complex movements is just crap, train the simple ones thousands of times and get the muscle memory instant, that is what matters.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029032]Ross makes an interesting comment about people who criticize Sand Da and MMA for not having self-defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4

I think that people accept the idea that MMA and San Da work in all situation and that people can defend themselves with it in the streets. The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

A good analogy of using full-on kickboxing to defeat a street fighter is treating a ho like a housewife. I get what I want in the end either way, but one is a bunch of unnecessary effort.[/QUOTE]

So what could you use to defeat him that would require less energy?confused:

I am very confused and maybe I don’t understand the point you are making but in MMA and grappling I am trained to find my opponents weaknesses and take him out, against a skilled BJJ guy that might take 5 minutes, against a newbie he will be tapping in seconds, against a good Thai guy I might need to throw faints, set combinations up, but against a new guy my simple 1, 2 might find a home and job done. We don’t look to make fights complicated we look to finish them quickly, but if the other guys good then things get complicated all by themselves

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In my opinion a street fight and self defense aren’t really the same thing, though they do over lap. But that’s just the way I look at things.

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[QUOTE=rogue;1029136]In my opinion a street fight and self defense aren’t really the same thing, though they do over lap. But that’s just the way I look at things.[/QUOTE]

This takes me back to the thread we had earlier this year, where most people agreed that their streetfights had been way easier than their competition fights, for the most part.

Guns, knives and home invasions excepted…

But, its all about the stakes…

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[QUOTE=Frost;1029118]So what could you use to defeat him that would require less energy?confused:

I am very confused and maybe I dont understand the point you are making but in MMA and grappling I am trained to find my opponents weaknesses and take him out, against a skilled BJJ guy that might take 5 minutes, against a newbie he will be tapping in seconds, against a good Thai guy I might need to throw faints, set combinations up, but against a new guy my simple 1, 2 might find a home and job done. We dont look to make fights complicated we look to finish them quickly, but if the other guys good then things get complicated all by themselves[/QUOTE]

Just on a very basic level, as I said above, getting if you square up on someone like you are in a ring you have committed a huge mistake in a street fight. IMO, as soon as you get in a stance/ on guard you let your opponent know that you know something and put yourself at greater risk to get stabbed or shot. Why would you let your opponent know that you are coming? This is a difference between a ring fight and a street fight. In the ring I have to display to the referee, judges, and on some level my opponent that I understand why I am there and that I am ready to defend myself. This is not the case in a street fight.

If I never got into a stance and punched someone on the street I am much better off than squaring up. That would be self-defense 101 versus ring 101 which says to keep my hands up and appear to be making an intelligent attempt to defend myself.

Beyond that, it is doing things like putting on eye protection and practicing a bil jee, role-playing various street-fighting scenarios. Discuss how to use the environment. Reminding people to look for weapons in the environment. Discuss how to hit people when your hands aren’t taped.

Does your gym practice 2-1, 3-1, and so on? Sure you can kickbox your way out of all of that, but it might be better to consider some of these situations and what are some ways to get out of them without squaring up to each guy and fighting them one one one.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1029111]A tiger will fight a rabbit the same way as to fight against a lion. The reason is simple. That tiger doesn’t know any other way. Is that bad? I don’t think so.

Of course you only need to be just a little bit better than your opponent and not showing off too much. Like my friend used to say that his opponent wasn’t good enough for him to pull out his best moves yet. But how many people can reach to that level?[/QUOTE]

Fighters tend to be true to their character. A boxer remains a boxer, a slugger remains a slugger, a grappler will still grapple. However, grenerally speaking, if a fighter goes out and makes no adjustments in a fighting situation, it shows a lack of polish.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029144]Just on a very basic level, as I said above, getting if you square up on someone like you are in a ring you have committed a huge mistake in a street fight. IMO, as soon as you get in a stance/ on guard you let your opponent know that you know something and put yourself at greater risk to get stabbed or shot. Why would you let your opponent know that you are coming? This is a difference between a ring fight and a street fight. In the ring I have to display to the referee, judges, and on some level my opponent that I understand why I am there and that I am ready to defend myself. This is not the case in a street fight.

If I never got into a stance and punched someone on the street I am much better off than squaring up. That would be self-defense 101 versus ring 101 which says to keep my hands up and appear to be making an intelligent attempt to defend myself.

Beyond that, it is doing things like putting on eye protection and practicing a bil jee, role-playing various street-fighting scenarios. Discuss how to use the environment. Reminding people to look for weapons in the environment. Discuss how to hit people when your hands aren’t taped.

Does your gym practice 2-1, 3-1, and so on? Sure you can kickbox your way out of all of that, but it might be better to consider some of these situations and what are some ways to get out of them without squaring up to each guy and fighting them one one one.[/QUOTE]

yep my MMA coach is a student and friend of geoff thompson and the coach at the other gym i train at does security for a few people so we have trained the fence, done some self defence and 2 on 1, 3 on 1, its a small part of our training but it is done on occasion. personally in a mulitpul situation if i cant blast a hole i want a shield (and its back to standing
grappling for me!)

do people really train finger strikes to the eyes,? not being funny but the risk reward to me is too great, if you hit bone or miss and break your fingers then what?

For self defence if you want something more serious than the normal fist id go with the PE fist, harder less prone to injury and can still be used to attack the eyes etc

MMA guys use the enviroment all the time in the cage or the ring, its not too much of an extension for them to use the wall, table floor etx and doesnt take too much time out of normal training to practise

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[QUOTE=Frost;1029191]yep my MMA coach is a student and friend of geoff thompson and the coach at the other gym i train at does security for a few people so we have trained the fence, done some self defence and 2 on 1, 3 on 1, its a small part of our training but it is done on occasion. personally in a mulitpul situation if i cant blast a hole i want a shield (and its back to standing
grappling for me!)
[/QUOTE]
That sort of training isn’t really the norm. it is pretty hit and miss at an mma IMO.
[QUOTE=Frost;1029191]
do people really train finger strikes to the eyes,? not being funny but the risk reward to me is too great, if you hit bone or miss and break your fingers then what?
[/QUOTE]

All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt.
[QUOTE=Frost;1029191]
For self defence if you want something more serious than the normal fist id go with the PE fist, harder less prone to injury and can still be used to attack the eyes etc
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what a PE fist is, But I don’t think that the idea is to have some thing “more serious” as much as it is to make extra sure that people are hitting correctly and using palm strikes when necessary.

[QUOTE=Frost;1029191]
MMA guys use the enviroment all the time in the cage or the ring, its not too much of an extension for them to use the wall, table floor etx and doesnt take too much time out of normal training to practise[/QUOTE]

Sure but the ring is only one environment with a different set of rules than the street so you have to explore other environments with a different mindset.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029212]That sort of training isn’t really the norm. it is pretty hit and miss at an mma IMO. .[/QUOTE]

Probably so but alot of MMA guys also bounce and have an understanding about street fighting even if they dont get it from class…what they do develop is (if they stick around or compete) is a will to destroy the other guy and a set of skills that enable them to do this…is it the best way to train for the street probably not but it allows you to develop skills that you can use under pressure and which you know will put the other guy down

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029212]
All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt. .[/QUOTE]

But do they spar and actually use it at full speed and full intent? i have had my finers dislocted a few times and wouldnt like to hit anything hard with them, the eyes are too small a target and too easy to miss (just my opinion)

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029212]
I don’t know what a PE fist is, But I don’t think that the idea is to have some thing “more serious” as much as it is to make extra sure that people are hitting correctly and using palm strikes when necessary. .[/QUOTE]

Pheonix eye fist, seen in bak mei, SPM and other Hakka arts, Ronin put up a video of in in the southern forum …you dont think finger strikes to the eyes are more deadly than punches?

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029212]
Sure but the ring is only one environment with a different set of rules than the street so you have to explore other environments with a different mindset.[/QUOTE]

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win

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An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don’t think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you’ve trained anyway, you’ll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.

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[QUOTE=Frost;1029213]
I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win[/QUOTE]

Hit the nail on the head. Agreed.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1029215]An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don’t think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you’ve trained anyway, you’ll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.[/QUOTE]

ditto i agree and think we wrote the same thing from different perspectives