David Ross Comment on Self-Defense

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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i remember me and my friends, would just draw a circle in the backyard and slug it out for two minutes no interruption(if you ever done a two minute round you no how exhausting that could be) and try to push ourselves to go beyond the standard punch and kick routines, but to use what we were being taught. best way to find out what works or doesnt work, or what needs to be adjusted. one of the things i learned from my xing yi teacher was “mutation” as he call it, how to change and adjust your technique to the situation. and learning how to combine or “Link” the various fist, like combination in boxing.just to give a little example, enemy attacks, you block using the rise motion of pi(splitting) chuan, then break his defense using the fall overturn motion followed by beng(crushing). this is just an example. but thats what i mean you have to learn to change your tactics and how to adjust your movements, everything doesnt have to be done like it is in a form or in a given application. i think standardize applications it what hurts most people and thats mostly due to the teacher, who doesnt explain to his students that this app is not set in stone.

another thing we did was something we called " the warriors field" where one individual would stand in the circle and defend his self against the rest of us for as long as he can. idea for this was to help you think under pressure in a situation where you had multiple attack. the idea wasnt to beat everybody up(considering there was about 15 of us that was an impossibility, although it did happen once, my friend tim just started hitting everyone in the nuts and we dropped like flies, and thus from then on he was known as the “sackinator”) it was just to help you remember what you know in any given situation. many a blood stained night training with my friends…im surprised we all grew up so adjusted.lol

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[QUOTE=Frost;1029213]Probably so but alot of MMA guys also bounce and have an understanding about street fighting even if they dont get it from class…what they do develop is (if they stick around or compete) is a will to destroy the other guy and a set of skills that enable them to do this…is it the best way to train for the street probably not but it allows you to develop skills that you can use under pressure and which you know will put the other guy down
[/QUOTE]

They should get it from class is my point. Leaning that you should have been inspecting a guy for a weapon as the conflict escalates is a bad thing to learn after you have been stabbed several times.

[QUOTE=Frost;1029213]
But do they spar and actually use it at full speed and full intent? i have had my finers dislocted a few times and wouldnt like to hit anything hard with them, the eyes are too small a target and too easy to miss (just my opinion)
[/QUOTE]
They use face shields. If you hold you bil jee correctly you won’t hurt your hand. the correct way to hold a bil jee is so that the fingers curl down slightly so that they collapse into a fist if they hit anything too solid. Some prefer a modified tiger claw as well.

If you land a solid bill jee on a face shield it really upsets the person being hit because of the added reach that the bil jee brings along with the face shield. I think that it actually balances out and gives a decently real appraisal of how to use the bil jee in a real situation.
[QUOTE=Frost;1029213]
Pheonix eye fist, seen in bak mei, SPM and other Hakka arts, Ronin put up a video of in in the southern forum …you dont think finger strikes to the eyes are more deadly than punches?
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t understand your abbreviation. Of course I believe that small hand techniques work, hence the talk of the Bil Jee. It just wasn’t the focus the specific point that I was making. In that piece of text that you initially responded to, I was mostly discussing doing things to avoid hurting one’s self like not hitting with the second knuckles which is a bad habit that

Could you direct me to SJ’s video?

[QUOTE=Frost;1029213]
I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.
[/QUOTE]
On some level I agree, but all things being equal having an understanding of your environment and the dynamics of street fighting give one an edge.

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I think that the thing that everyone needs to get away from thinking is that this is a conversation about mma versus TMA. This is a criticism of mma in a vacuum.

If we were to sit around and think about things that mma could do better, I find it hard to argue that they/we could do a better job of making sure that people can handle street situations more efficiently.

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when we do an eye strike, the fingers are slightly bent, not locked out, so there is no danger if you hit bone. You don’t need to be able to thrust through boards or watermelons to squish an eyeball.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029032] The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

[/QUOTE]
not if u perk juggernaut and get 50% more energy. altho stopping power negates it. and always carry energy packs wit u. dont rely on random powerups
some prefer stim paks but the downside is u lose 10 hp so always bring a healer

but i argue that to neither perchance to the comsumption of leafy green vegetables which therefore increases the effeciency and energy output of your emdoplasmic reticulum and ribosomes, encouraging ribosome biogenesis. prostate anus balls

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stack stam. and intellect for max. boost. I have a sword with +15 to F’U-up so if we need that I can provide.

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cast nanoskill buff to execute nanoprogram: bong sao expertise. target has drastically improved bong sao, which can be used to stop takedowns and deadly hook punches.

tier 1 perk bong sao mastery: ground fighting no longer has any effect on you.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1029232]not if u perk juggernaut and get 50% more energy. altho stopping power negates it. and always carry energy packs wit u. dont rely on random powerups
some prefer stim paks but the downside is u lose 10 hp so always bring a healer

but i argue that to neither perchance to the comsumption of leafy green vegetables which therefore increases the effeciency and energy output of your emdoplasmic reticulum and ribosomes, encouraging ribosome biogenesis. prostate anus balls[/QUOTE]

sometimes I don’t understand a thing he is saying.
But I think I got the last part…

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[QUOTE=bawang;1029234]cast nanoskill buff to execute nanoprogram: bong sao expertise. target has drastically improved bong sao, which can be used to stop takedowns and deadly hook punches.

tier 1 perk bong sao mastery: ground fighting no longer has any effect on you.[/QUOTE]

bong sao has no effect on bearded hook step, so the entire art is negated by a single takedown.

bad news!

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029228]I think that the thing that everyone needs to get away from thinking is that this is a conversation about mma versus TMA. This is a criticism of mma in a vacuum.

If we were to sit around and think about things that mma could do better, I find it hard to argue that they/we could do a better job of making sure that people can handle street situations more efficiently.[/QUOTE]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57757

link to ronins thread on PE fist.

I think the main problem with this is that most people who train MMA arent doing it primarily for self defence reasons, and those that are DO do the necessary training to make it effective on the street (they role with knifes, train against multipul opponents etc) but the vaste majority arent that interested in self defence.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1029229]when we do an eye strike, the fingers are slightly bent, not locked out, so there is no danger if you hit bone. You don’t need to be able to thrust through boards or watermelons to squish an eyeball.[/QUOTE]

nope but if you miss the eye ball you are going to hit something hard and there is a danger of hurting your hand, and personally i would rather hit his face with my fist

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I’ve yet to see a kung fu school that practiced the proper way to get throw through a table, hit with a bottle or defend a curb stomp…just sayin…

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[QUOTE=bawang;1029232] prostate anus balls[/QUOTE]

You pose a convincing argument. vulva ovum fundus

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[QUOTE=Frost;1029191]do people really train finger strikes to the eyes? [/QUOTE]
An open hand slide across the eyes will be better than finger poke into the eyes.

  • 1st, you don’t have your opponent’s eye balls on your finger tips (It’s hard to prove you are innocent in court).
  • 2nd, you have 5 fingers on 2 eyes (5 x 2 = 10). The odd that any of your fingers that can get into either eye is much greater.
  • 3rd, it’s just a hook punch (without a fist) across your opponent’s face. Nothing fancy about that.
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[QUOTE=Frost;1029254]nope but if you miss the eye ball you are going to hit something hard and there is a danger of hurting your hand, and personally i would rather hit his face with my fist[/QUOTE]

Hitting anything hard with any part of the hand will always have risk with it. Personally I try not to hit the head with a bare fist. Eye jabs are no big deal and just another technique for you tool box. They work when they land right, sometimes work when you miss and the other guy flinches and other times they just fail. Just like a lot of techniques.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029144]Just on a very basic level, as I said above, getting if you square up on someone like you are in a ring you have committed a huge mistake in a street fight. IMO, as soon as you get in a stance/ on guard you let your opponent know that you know something and put yourself at greater risk to get stabbed or shot. Why would you let your opponent know that you are coming? This is a difference between a ring fight and a street fight. In the ring I have to display to the referee, judges, and on some level my opponent that I understand why I am there and that I am ready to defend myself. This is not the case in a street fight.[/quote]

I wouldn’t assume we would drop into a thai fighting stance any more than I would assume you would drop into a low 60 /40. I’m not sure why you would even say that…

If I never got into a stance and punched someone on the street I am much better off than squaring up. That would be self-defense 101 versus ring 101 which says to keep my hands up and appear to be making an intelligent attempt to defend myself.

LOL, your hands should be up - after the fight starts. If you are so close to me and have me so concerned that a you will strike, then I will likely strike pre empively anyway - why am I waiting on him to swing at me?

Beyond that, it is doing things like putting on eye protection and practicing a bil jee, role-playing various street-fighting scenarios. Discuss how to use the environment. Reminding people to look for weapons in the environment. Discuss how to hit people when your hands aren’t taped.

I don’t punch a bag with taped hands. I rarely use gloves. When training for a fight, you should do theses things so you are used to the feel, but beyond that, I don’t do it. An MMA guy knows how to use the environment just as well as any. due to being in a cage, they are used to fighting in a confined space, know how to keep you in the area they want you, etc. There is more to environmental training than simply “I see a chair” Once again, you are making assumptions about an mma guys knowledge set.

Does your gym practice 2-1, 3-1, and so on? Sure you can kickbox your way out of all of that, but it might be better to consider some of these situations and what are some ways to get out of them without squaring up to each guy and fighting them one one one.

Many GJJ gyms will touch on this at some point, though it is not a focus of training. Royce actually has a decent grappling self defense book on the market. I got hm to autograph it last time I saw him.

In addition, I wouldn’t really agree that TMA has any more advantage in these situations than an mma guy. I bounce in a popular night club. I fight multiple attackers all the time…choked out two guys in a multiple scenario this past saturday. I was able to RNC and he was a barrier between myself and the other guy. Once he passed out, I dropped him and took the next guy. There is no situation I’ve been in where I haven’t been able to use my judo / muay thai / bjj, and that includes being attacked with knives and bottles. I had a gun pulled on me once, but he was like 30 feet away from me. No training in any style would’ve helped with that.

Please quit assuming that all a sport fighter wants to do is square up with someone. it sounds silly.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1029215]An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don’t think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you’ve trained anyway, you’ll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.[/QUOTE]

agreed. good point.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029212]
All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt.
[/QUOTE]

I have taken jkd. at no point did we EVER train a full force eye gouge / finger jab. We would drill the technique, but never full force and contact.

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[QUOTE=Frost;1029213]
I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win[/QUOTE]

That is what I think some tma guys over look. I have spoken with guys IRL and on this forum who believe that just because they train X style that they have an advantage over any random untrained brute. Somebody with no training, but has intent to kill you is in many cases more dangerous than any trained ma, for the reason that in MA you are trained to care. How many times have you heard someone say they don’t like to do this or that or dont fight because they know what they can do to a person. Those big rugby players don’t have that inhibition. They just want to hurt you.

I used to work with a guy who trained in taiji, kempo and was a black belt in some other style of karate. He could talk the talk, he had sparred, but when he got into his first real fight, he found out that it was nothing like he thought and that this untrained guy shouldn’t have been able to man handle him the way that he did. Notice that I said USED to work with. He quit shortly after that. He was almost killed.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029320]I wouldn’t assume we would drop into a thai fighting stance any more than I would assume you would drop into a low 60 /40. I’m not sure why you would even say that…
[/QUOTE]
If the particulars aren’t discussed of a given situation in a school then there is no reason to assume that exponents of a particular school will do the correct things in an unfamiliar situation.

For example if a school never spars at all it is a reasonable assumption that students from that school will make a larger number of sparring errors than a school that spars. Assuming that a strictly sport school will do something other than ring fighting when faced with a street situation is an assumption. If your school trains for street situations, that’s good, but like I said, it isn’t the norm.