[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029322]I have taken jkd. at no point did we EVER train a full force eye gouge / finger jab. We would drill the technique, but never full force and contact.[/QUOTE]
Lots do. If you school had the appropriate equipment then I would be surprised if it did not train the technique.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029320]
I don’t punch a bag with taped hands. I rarely use gloves. When training for a fight, you should do theses things so you are used to the feel, but beyond that, I don’t do it. An MMA guy knows how to use the environment just as well as any. due to being in a cage, they are used to fighting in a confined space, know how to keep you in the area they want you, etc. There is more to environmental training than simply “I see a chair” Once again, you are making assumptions about an mma guys knowledge set.
[/QUOTE]
It’s more that just seeing a chair and hitting someone with it. It is about understanding the entire situation and knowing when you should go for the chair. It’s about being ready for the second or 3rd guy who comes that you didn’t initially size up. If you aren’t spending time talking about these things with your instructors and dedicating class time to these things then you are probably not as prepared as you would like to believe. You should be going through a short curriculum of things that you need to consider that will include, strategy, techniques, legalities, conflict mediation, and awareness training.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029328]If the particulars aren’t discussed of a given situation in a school then there is no reason to assume that exponents of a particular school will do the correct things in an unfamiliar situation.
For example if a school never spars at all it is a reasonable assumption that students from that school will make a larger number of sparring errors than a school that spars. Assuming that a strictly sport school will do something other than ring fighting when faced with a street situation is an assumption. If your school trains for street situations, that’s good, but like I said, it isn’t the norm.[/QUOTE]
I work with a bunch of mma guys, several of whom don’t train where I do. none of them get into fighting stances at work…
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029329]Lots do. If you school had the appropriate equipment then I would be surprised if it did not train the technique.[/QUOTE]
show me a clip of any person who takes eye gouges at full force as part of training. I can show you a clip of yuki nakai taking one in an mma match. He is now blind in his right eye, although he did win his fight.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029331]I work with a bunch of mma guys, several of whom don’t train where I do. none of them get into fighting stances at work…[/QUOTE]
As I said, are they learning this though on the job experience, talking with each other, did they pick some things up from a video, a karate class when they were a kid, or did their mma instructors talk with them about it? See my point?
Also, that is just one example of a greater point. It isn’t they entire point.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029333]show me a clip of any person who takes eye gouges at full force as part of training. I can show you a clip of yuki nakai taking one in an mma match. He is now blind in his right eye, although he did win his fight.[/QUOTE]
Apparently you are unaware of the face shield as a training device.
Could somebody please tell me at what point of my conversion into MMA I lost the ability to bite, eye gouge or swift kick to nutsack? I mean I still chew my food so my jaws work. And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. I can stick a finger in my own eye. I think it would move just as easily into someone else’s.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029336]Apparently you are unaware of the face shield as a training device.[/QUOTE]
i’m very aware of it. But as frost started earlier, when you hit hard surfaces at full force with your fingers…
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1029337]Could somebody please tell me at what point of my conversion into MMA I lost the ability to bite, eye gouge or swift kick to nutsack? I mean I still chew my food so my jaws work. And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. I can stick a finger in my own eye. I think it would move just as easily into someone else’s.[/QUOTE]
ironically, a grappler can likely pull of an eye gouge easier than a striker can.
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1029337]Could somebody please tell me at what point of my conversion into MMA I lost the ability to bite, eye gouge or swift kick to nutsack? I mean I still chew my food so my jaws work. And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. I can stick a finger in my own eye. I think it would move just as easily into someone else’s.[/QUOTE]
The simple answer is that you haven’t but you fall into a mindset when you train mma/ sport fighting. You have to spend some time training these things to bring them back out. It’s not that mma lacks the tool kit to fight on the street efficiently. It is just making sure that when you are on the street that you pull out the right set of tools for the job.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029338]i’m very aware of it. But as frost started earlier, when you hit hard surfaces at full force with your fingers…[/QUOTE]
Incorrect understanding of how to properly construct a bil jee or any eye gouge and apply it. you should have no problem hitting a hard surface.
Edit:
The Bil Jee is thrown in a manner akin to the flicker jab in boxing. Moreover, the bil jee is constructed so that the fingers are curled and collapse when they hit a solid surface. As stated above, if you were taught to throw a bil jee so that it pierces a rmellon, you were shown incorrectly.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029320]In addition, I wouldn’t really agree that TMA has any more advantage in these situations than an mma guy. I bounce in a popular night club. I fight multiple attackers all the time…choked out two guys in a multiple scenario this past saturday. I was able to RNC and he was a barrier between myself and the other guy. Once he passed out, I dropped him and took the next guy. There is no situation I’ve been in where I haven’t been able to use my judo / muay thai / bjj, and that includes being attacked with knives and bottles. I had a gun pulled on me once, but he was like 30 feet away from me. No training in any style would’ve helped with that. [/QUOTE]
Excellent!
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1029337]And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. [/QUOTE]
You’d be surprised by how many people can’t easily do something to injure another person.
[QUOTE=rogue;1029354]You’d be surprised by how many people can’t easily do something to injure another person.[/QUOTE]
True, but you know through MMA, I tend to kick people that don’t want to be kicked on a rather frequent basis. I’m not too worried about my leg not working or some other such phenomena.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029340]The simple answer is that you haven’t but you fall into a mindset when you train mma/ sport fighting. You have to spend some time training these things to bring them back out. It’s not that mma lacks the tool kit to fight on the street efficiently. It is just making sure that when you are on the street that you pull out the right set of tools for the job.[/QUOTE]
That’s funny because every fight I ever got into prior to any sort of MA training, I pretty much had no trouble kicking someone in the nuts. I even hit a couple with chairs in school. So what you’re saying is that the culmination of street defense focused traditional martial arts are centered around training techniques I have been successfully employing since 2nd grade recess?
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1029339]ironically, a grappler can likely pull of an eye gouge easier than a striker can.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I know I can control someone in close quarters. The question is can they control me?
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1029357]That’s funny because every fight I ever got into prior to any sort of MA training, I pretty much had no trouble kicking someone in the nuts. I even hit a couple with chairs in school. So what you’re saying is that the culmination of street defense focused traditional martial arts are centered around training techniques I have been successfully employing since 2nd grade recess?[/QUOTE]
This isn’t about TMA. Where did I mention TMA except to make the point that this discussion has nothing to do with TMA? People would like it to be about TMA versus MMA /sport so that there can be some debate about alive training versus forms versus blah blah blah. This ain’t that debate.
Just for clarification, did you have credible knife defense in second grade? Were you training day in and day out with rules that forebode the use of groin kicks, chairs, or biting? In second grade, did you understand the legalities of when to use a chair? Did you go through some scenarios of how to put a stop to a fight before the opponent even gets going? Is your school running over these scenarios now or do you just figure that you have it because you have been in enough scrapes? Do you have an innate ability to defend against multiple attackers.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029032]Ross makes an interesting comment about people who criticize Sand Da and MMA for not having self-defense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4
I think that people accept the idea that MMA and San Da work in all situation and that people can defend themselves with it in the streets. The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.
A good analogy of using full-on kickboxing to defeat a street fighter is treating a ho like a housewife. I get what I want in the end either way, but one is a bunch of unnecessary effort.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it really matters what action is taken to defend yourself as long as you end up in a safer position that you were before you started. Real fights aren’t pretty and there are no rules to stop it from getting out of hand you just have to do what you can. 
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029359]This isn’t about TMA. Where did I mention TMA except to make the point that this discussion has nothing to do with TMA? People would like it to be about TMA versus MMA /sport so that there can be some debate about alive training versus forms versus blah blah blah. This ain’t that debate.
Just for clarification, did you have credible knife defense in second grade? Were you training day in and day out with rules that forebode the use of groin kicks, chairs, or biting? In second grade, did you understand the legalities of when to use a chair? Did you go through some scenarios of how to put a stop to a fight before the opponent even gets going? Is your school running over these scenarios now or do you just figure that you have it because you have been in enough scrapes? Do you have an innate ability to defend against multiple attackers.[/QUOTE]
I really don’t see your point now what schools do offer this training?
Apart from JKD real street fighting schools and those schools like krav maga etc…I never got anything like this from my old TMA school so maybe we should start a thread about how they lack these things…I did do knife work in my TCMA classes but it sucked and would likely get me killed if I used it, same with the multiple opponents stuff, why because none of it was pressured tested it was nearly all complaint walk through stuff, we never went really hard or tried to hurt each other.
Interestingly a lot of the JKD guys moved AWAY from this kind of training towards a more sports based approach, believing it was healthier and prepared them for real life confrontations better (matt Thornton, Paul Sharp, Burt Richardson the singer brothers etc)
The best knife defence work I have ever seen didn’t come from a TMA or a Filipino school, it comes from a Greco roman wrestler and BJJ black belt who gave up JKD and Filipino knife stuff AFTER being stabbed by multiple opponents and developed a programme based around controlling the knife arm and the opponent using his sport grappling skills
The best knife defence work I have ever seen didn’t come from a TMA or a Filipino school, it comes from a Greco roman wrestler and BJJ black belt who gave up JKD and Filipino knife stuff AFTER being stabbed by multiple opponents and developed a programme based around controlling the knife arm and the opponent using his sport grappling skills
Myself included in that, I never really got any weapons training in TCMA and the stuff I was shown was total crap. The best stuff I recieved for knife/weapons was from a Judo instructor. He taught a lot of restrains and controlling movements in clinch for knife work. His stuff was top notch.