Mixing Wing Chun with a grappling style?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Wayfaring;939884]
But bear with me. A bridge is grappling in a very broad sense. It represents restricted movement. Books like Renzo Gracie’s talking about fight ranges speak of free movement, restricted movement, and ground. Now you can say that the object of chi sau is to strike your opponent. But if you develop skill in control of the bridge, and what presents itself is a takedown, will you take it or not? The kicks in wing chun are kind of designed to remove the supporting balance and take someone to the ground.

So what exactly would you say the difference is in grip fighting in an MMA environment and the bridge in wing chun?
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dave,

This was my point all along. We train Chi Sao to control the bridge at various timeframes. Chi Sao for is not simply a method to set up a strike. If you are in striking range however, and it is the time to hit… then great. But if not, then you’ll most likely get hit yourself. Chi Sao can help you keep an opponent from achieving “grip control” which can be very helpful in preventing yourself from being taken down.

Interesting enough, I am in Tucson this week visiting my folks. My cousin happens to be a coach here for a high school football team. Well, he had me come down and teach his star receiver some simple Kiu Sau techniques to use on the scrimage line. The kid is smaller than most defensive backs and he was getting held up too much at the line, by the “bump and run”. Thats a defensive line technique where they push up against your center and try and uplift you. Kind of like our snow plowing. Anyways, the counter technique for this is called “The Swim”, and it wasn’t working out for the kid.

Anyways, by using some of the controlled bridging I showed him, the kid was able to keep some hands off of him at practice. We’ll see how it works out in the future, but it was definitley a fun experience.

Anerlich,

Our terminology like Contact/Control is just that… terminology. I don’t see, where I hyped it up or made it sound like some revolutionary ground-breaking concept. We simply have terms for certain applications of physical skill. End of Story.

Terence,

I seriously doubt you would act like such a Jack-A$$ in real life.

Robert came by our school in 1998 or so. It was at that time, he told us that our Tan Sau was too high and would block our vision etc. Fine, that was his opinion at the time, he wasn’t aware of our application, covering of gate, or occupation of space. However oddly enough, our punches use the exact same reference points, and he most definitely witnessed them too.

So another words, if you want to play chicken and egg, we most certainly can. But it is a waste of bandwidth and everyone’s time here, not to mention our own.

As for your opinion on HFY. Somehow, somewhere you got emotionally attached to this hatred of yours. It’s too bad really. I’ve had nice talks recently with both Robert and Alan from the CSL system.

We have all decided to move on and share our personal learning experiences here on forums like this.

Obviously, you are your own person etc… and that’s good too.

But if you look at your posts. In all truth… the person you are arguing the most with is YOURSELF.

Take care everyone. My apologies for contributing to the negative energy here.

Best,

Alex

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[QUOTE=Ned;940011]T, from the sounds of your research, its full of Bull. first off you talk about real fighting all the time but its only sparring with pads and limits. Before doing any research try researching real fighting first like maybe going up againist anyone you wrongly convicted with your “research” jargon. Do it without the pad and any limits, rules, legal consequences, ect. its called critical analysis.
[/QUOTE]

My research isn’t “full of bull” – it’s the HFY story that is nothing but bullsh1t. But it is a very simple thing to prove me wrong: just provide independently verifiable evidence of Garrett’s WCK lineage. If you do that, I’ll admit I’m wrong. I have absolutely no problem changing my mind if someone provides me with genuine evidence. And it’s easy enough to prove lineage if you have a lineage (since every nonHFY person in WCK can do that). But HFY marketing tries to focus our attention of everything BUT this simple fact. And there is a very good reason for that.

Another thing – there are certain dead giveaways that tell me people aren’t fighting and they know hardly anything about fighting. Talking about “real fighting” is one of those giveaways. It is a dead giveaway that the person speaking is a fantasy-based martial artist.

go talk to youself.

Oh, its too much fun to talk to guys like you. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;940022]Where grappling is an option, short range striking will “degrade” into clicnh work and inevitably, grappling.

Just the way things work.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. EXACTLY. Thank you. And the fact taht you know this tells me you have some experience – that’s how things will work. It’s not theory, it’s not how you think they will work, that’s what will happen.

In my view, that’s what WCK’s method is, a form of “dirty” clinch boxing, combining elements of grappling and striking. You can’t fight on the inside without it turning into clinch.

Strikers prefer to stay at a “longer range” because they avoid the grappling/clinch situation and their strikes carry momentum as well, not just “short impact power”.
Striking at short range isn’t avoid in MMA, the WELL TRAINED grappling element takes lots of the “sting” out of it and unless someone has trained that short power VS the grappling techniques they will encounter, typically, the short power won’t be as effective as needed.

And there are some MMAists that are very good at clinch-and-pound, or dirty clinch boxing.

Very insightful post.

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[QUOTE=duende;940031]Terence,

I seriously doubt you would act like such a Jack-A$$ in real life.
[/QUOTE]

As anyone who knows me will tell you, I am a very straightforward person. I call it like I see it.

Robert came by our school in 1998 or so. It was at that time, he told us that our Tan Sau was too high and would block our vision etc. Fine, that was his opinion at the time, he wasn’t aware of our application, covering of gate, or occupation of space. However oddly enough, our punches use the exact same reference points, and he most definitely witnessed them too.

So another words, if you want to play chicken and egg, we most certainly can. But it is a waste of bandwidth and everyone’s time here, not to mention our own.

Yes, it is a waste of time because Robert doesn’t teach anything similar to HFY. Robert had trained in TWC (the forerunner of HFY), so he was already aware of the high tan sao, etc.

As for your opinion on HFY. Somehow, somewhere you got emotionally attached to this hatred of yours. It’s too bad really. I’ve had nice talks recently with both Robert and Alan from the CSL system.

You guys keep wanting to make this into some “emotional” issue. It isn’t emotional at all – it’s a rational issue for me. All the evailable, solid evidence and critical thinking points to one conclusion: Garrett created HFY. Just like Henry Leung created Buddha Fist. Am I emotional about that too? :wink: Do I hate all Buddha fist people? LOL! No, it’s just the only sensible conclusion.

We have all decided to move on and share our personal learning experiences here on forums like this.

I don’t care if you want to share your “personal learning experiences” in HFY. I don’t care if Scientologists want to share their views. I am saying that my view is that HFY is nonsense, and so anytime you want to share your view with me or argue with me, that will be my response – HFY is nonsense. It’s silly. It is comic book stuff. Knwoing that, why do you guys continue to want to argue with me? I’d think that you’d just want to leave me alone and not argue with me. But, either way, it’s all fine.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;939878]

Secondly, I have long believed that both William Cheung and Garrett Gee learned from the same unidentified source - one referring to it as Traditional Wing Chun (TWC) and the other calling it Hung Fa Yi (HFY).
[/QUOTE]

All Wing Chun comes from the same source. And as both TWC and HFY have history that ties them to this original source, being able to relate to expressions found in both systems could mean that you are in fact seeing expressions from the original source.

Not trying to start a debate here, but if you think about the commonalities amongst all our systems… then one can possible boil everything down to the unifying original thread.

Therefore, it is not fair for either system to be writtten off simply as the same thing, or worse… as a copy of eachother like what Terence is doing. This casts off both our systems as merely just a few rudimentery techniques.

I find that highly insulting and ignorant. Despite all his back-peddling and self-affirmation.

Yes.. we do share some things like our high elbow/straight wrist Ying Bong Sau, but did you know that HFY also has a bent wrist/low elbow Hok Bong Sau? One is meant for the big wheel Body mechanics and Jeui Ying, while the other is meant for the little wheel body and deui ying facing.

I’ve also seen some TWC kicks and hand techniques that are not present in HFY.

So there are some similarities, but there are also some differences.

Anyways Victor, I know GM Gee has been traveling more frequently to NY these days. In the pursuit of good will, I could try and set-up some time for you to meet with him. PM me if you are interested.

Best,

Alex

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;940022]Where grappling is an option, short range striking will “degrade” into clicnh work and inevitably, grappling.
Just the way things work.
[/QUOTE]
I would say in short range people either clinch and grapple, clinch and work the clinch with strikes or step angle off and punch their way out. There’s a natural tendency to clinch, which you see even in boxing.

Skilled strikers can make people miss at short range and angle out without grappling, like Muhammid Ali’s rope-a-dope.

In MT, Buakaw’s degrading into clinch work doesn’t lead to grappling but “degrading” the condition of his opponent to the point they’ve changed MT rule enforcement to deal with his clinch work strikes.

Skilled wrestlers are able to slip some short range punches or roll with them in clinch initiation to get to the clinch. The cage helps with this.

Strikers prefer to stay at a “longer range” because they avoid the grappling/clinch situation and their strikes carry momentum as well, not just “short impact power”.

Yes they do. It also gives them a touch more time to sprawl on takedown attempts. If they catch someone with a punch they move into short range to finish them.

Striking at short range isn’t avoid in MMA, the WELL TRAINED grappling element takes lots of the “sting” out of it and unless someone has trained that short power VS the grappling techniques they will encounter, typically, the short power won’t be as effective as needed.

A skilled wrestler will duck under a committed punch to get to clinch/takedown range. They are avoiding short range by going from long range to clinch with timing. There’s no time to initiate a short range punch from ducking under a punch to clinch. Or they absorb some strikes with hands up and use the cage to help force their way into clinch range.

I would say in each of these scenarios fighters ARE avoiding the short range distance punching range. That’s because you can get hit there. Whether avoiding it by staying in long range or avoiding it by moving to clinch with skill that is still avoiding it.

WC can contribute in this by touch skill on the bridge. We are used to force on the bridge, force on a jong structure, and maintaining our body structures to deal with and deflect force.

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It’s not a question of good will, Alex. I have no ill-will towards Garrett Gee. I’m sure he’s a nice man who would be willing talk to me about his HFY, about TWC, about whatever.

But meeting with him in this manner is not going to change anything in my mind.

So he might talk about this or that aspect of his HFY wing chun that I haven’t heard before - but it’s all in the ACTIONS.

And short of some sort of actual sparring (which I’m not suggesting because I don’t go around challenging people, least of all someone who claims to be a Grandmaster of a given system)…But…

short of that,

I need to SEE something in action if I’m going to be convinced of anything.

You say that there’s a very big difference between TWC and HFY. But for me, the only thing that matters is actual fight efficiency, not some technical/definitional differences that may or may not amount to anything significant in actual fighting.

So where are the HFY vids for the world to see?

He clearly made a decision long ago that they won’t be coming: no vids about forms, drills, chi sao, kiu sao, sparring, weapons…nothing.

Fine, that’s his business.

But I’m just not interested in persuing any more “debates” about HFY without them.

…

Now as far as Terence goes, yeah, he talks through his A55 waaaay more than from anywhere else, but what else is new? I don’t take him seriously, quite frankly.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;940001]Who? You talk about “people with serious knowledge” – gung fu or martial art isn’t about “knowlededge”, it is about SKILL, fighting skill. Most of TCMA “knowledge” is nonsense, it’s fantasy. Real knowledge only comes from doing it, from fighting. So who are the great fighters that have respect for Garrett?

You Dolt. When I talk about knowledge, that means skill. You dont’ get that type of knowledge any other way than by touching hands with others. It directly equates to skill.

Skill at what? You can only tell someone’s fighting skill by seeing them fight, particularly with competent fighters. Not only that, but you can only develop fighting skill by and through fighting. Since he’s never fought in his life, let alone with competent fighters, how can anyone says he has skill?

What the hell makes you think Sifu Gee has never fought in his life? He is in San Fransico; one of the most prolific MA communities in the U.S. You don’t think he has people walking into the Kwoon weekly if not daily wanting to test him?!? If you don’t then you really are a freaking retard.

They aren’t trying to really “touch him.” They’re not fighting. Put Garrett in against a low level MT fighter and Garrett would be out in seconds. And that’s not meant as an insult – it’s just that you can’t develop the skill to deal with competent fighters, like a MT fighter, by not fighting. You only will develop the skill to beat the MT fighter by getting in and doing it, and doing loads of it.

So where did Muay Tai come from? It came from the same d@mn place as WC. I guess through time, WC guys have let themselves go and the Muay tai guys are the real deal now? Not to beat a dead horse, but your ignorance is truly laughable.

I’ve done the research. You’re just listenting to the marketing, the story they’re presenting as history. But that isn’t true. As I said, show me ONE HFY practitioner that existed prior to Garrett. ONE. You can’t. I could take any WCK practitioner on this forum at random other than a HFY person, and reliably trace theri lineage back to the Red Boats, showing real people (with proof they existed) that we could show really trained WCK. You can’t do that with Garrett. Why? Because there was no HFY prior to GG. It didn’t exist. He made it up.

Have you not gone to the HFY website where it lists Sifu Gee’s lineage all the way back to Hung gun Bui? What is your lineage (I mean past where all of the inbreeding started)? Can you prove anything to me? I asked you last time to show me some proof and all you come back with is more questions to my questions. So, I guess we are just going to talk in circles now huh?

Are you suggesting that Garrett is simply too stupid to add symbology to his system? :wink: That it would need to be done by committee?

Simply stating that the kind of depth and history Sifu Gee has talked about in the past is most definately NOT made up. Of course because you haven’t heard any of it, it must be false right? So since you have never flown up to space and experienced it for yourself, it doesn’t exist either huh? Are you one of those wierdos who thinks the moon landings took place somewhere in Nevada? That is just a splendid way to look at the world. So, the world must be pretty flat in St Louis huh?

“Sour grapes”? “Ruin it for everyone else”? You’re funny.

Just calling it like I see it ignorant wretch.

All you need to do is look at what you (or HFY) offer as evidence, as proof of your claims. You talk about history but can’t offer any evidence HFY existed prior to GG. You can’t bring forward a single HFY practitioner priorto GG. You offer stories. But no evidence.

The evidence is in the system. But again, you are ignorant of any of it, so why would you think it could be a possibility that there may be something out there that the MIGHTY terrance doesn’t know. I forgot your omnipresence. Sorry. You know everything right? And if you don’t know it, it must not exist huh?

You talk about GG’s “reputation”, how some unnamed people think he’s got skil, but you can’t provide any evidence of him actually using that alleged skill or doing the things any person needs to do to develop that skill.

The proof is in the pudding Terrance. People try and take Sifu Gee down, they get completely neutralized. You don’t need to hit someone to prove your superiority over them. I mean just look how you continuously make yourself look like a complete beetle headed idiot and all you have done is post on this forum. No punching involved. Maybe it is too many hits to the face and head which have made you retarded? Maybe no one told you you don’t actually have to take it in the @$$ to be considered gay. If you give head to other guys, that is gay too. Just FYI.

You believe despite the complete lack of solid, genuine evidence. Well, I don’t. For me, the lack of that evidence IS evidence. That’s not “sour grapes”, that’s not “spoiling it for everyone” (like it’s some party), that’s called being rational. It’s called being a critical thinker. Maybe you should try it.[/QUOTE]

Critical thinking is knowing enough to know that I don’t know enough. Sycophantic, self centered jerk-offs like you think they know everything. I’m not nearly that stupid. To be so very close-minded must be so lonely for you… Not to worry, you still have your hands to please you and keep you company… After your done giving head down at the park that is…:wink:

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LOL, dives in with a lecture to others on how to behave on the forum, and six posts in and this is what you’ve got to mate?! Thanks for playing: door’s that way.

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[QUOTE=vingtsunplaya;940134]I’m not nearly that stupid. [/QUOTE]

Don’t sell yourself short. You seem pretty stupid.

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[QUOTE=vingtsunplaya;940134]Critical thinking is knowing enough to know that I don’t know enough.
[/QUOTE]

You’re partly correct. Critical thinking is to draw conclusions from available, quality evidence. As I said, if you can show that HFY existed prior to Garrett with independently verifiable evidence, then do so. Prove my conclusion wrong. The only meaningful evidence of WCK history is lineage. But we all know that you can’t prove HFY lineage past Garrett. Yet you get upset when someone points that out and points out that the only rational conclusion based on the available evidence is that Garrett created HFY. And, since you can’t rebut my conslusion, you get upset. Adn then claim that I’m the one being emotional!

Sycophantic, self centered jerk-offs like you think they know everything. I’m not nearly that stupid. To be so very close-minded must be so lonely for you… Not to worry, you still have your hands to please you and keep you company… After your done giving head down at the park that is…:wink:

Then you make inane, personal attacks which only prove 1) that you have no evidence to rebut my conclusion and 2) you’re intellectually bankrupt.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;940120]Now as far as Terence goes, yeah, he talks through his A55 waaaay more than from anywhere else, but what else is new? I don’t take him seriously, quite frankly.[/QUOTE]

Apparently my ass makes more sense than your brain. :wink:

BTW, still awaiting your sparring video against the hook. When are we going to see it? You know, the one you told bullshido you were making. When you did that, were you talking with your brain?

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Apparently my ass makes more sense than your brain.

Well, you’ve been talking out of it for long enough.

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bwwaahh !!!
:d:d

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Re HFY posts

Why not just ignore the HFY posts. Engaging them IMO serves no constructive purpose.

joy chaudhuri

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The vid has been held up due to a personal issue of the man who was going to spar with me. But I know him for close to 20 years, and he will return sooner or later, I’m sure - and the vid will be made and posted then.

But in the meantime, Mr. I-never-change-the-subject-in-order-to-avoid-the-real-issues…

I’m sure we can expect more butt talk from you.

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;940180]Why not just ignore the HFY posts. Engaging them IMO serves no constructive purpose.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that engaging them serves no constructive purpose. I’m not seeking out any HFY people to have discussions with. But when they intercede in my discussions, particularly by referencing me or my post, I’m not going to let them get away with impunity. Instead, I’ll point out why anything they say can’t be taken seriously. I think that in this way, I’ll get fewer HFY people engaging me.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;940160]Well, you’ve been talking out of it for long enough.[/QUOTE]

Like Rampage said: “My power comes from my ass!” :wink:

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;940204]The vid has been held up due to a personal issue of the man who was going to spar with me. But I know him for close to 20 years, and he will return sooner or later, I’m sure - and the vid will be made and posted then.

But in the meantime, Mr. I-never-change-the-subject-in-order-to-avoid-the-real-issues…

I’m sure we can expect more butt talk from you.[/QUOTE]

Too bad you live in the wilderness away from any boxing gyms or you could just go there and do it against someone other than one of your students. But then, I’m sure you need just the right guy to makethe video. No sweat.

BTW, I think Kung Fu Joe is still waiting for your call to roll with him. Or, are you waiting for someone for that too?

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Yoooooouuu have the nerve to talk about living in the wilderness!!! :eek:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:rolleyes: