Meihua Lu

I was looking back through the old threads here and discovered that there has been no discussion of the Meihua Lu form since 1/8/2008.

I thought it might be interesting to start a discussion since the form is found in both the Qixing and Greater Meihua lines of mantis.

Wong Hon Fan refers to the form as (méi hu luò - Plum Flower Falling) in his book series. Most other families refer to the same form as (méi hu lù - Plum Flower Road).

Here are some videos of the form:

Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7l3flGK1tY&feature=watch_response_rev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwc3T0Y8A-g

Taiji Tanglangquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY6VWynWEog&feature=channel_video_title

Qixing Tanglangquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDYWPAYACI&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Dgd68COWI&feature=related

Interesting clips,

taijitanglangquan is interesting, even looked like a bagua style dragon serving teacup move in there…how mixed are the mainland styles?

WHF version is close to CCM version but has an extra run at end.

How come we have so many differences between WHF and CCM versions?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

This is the cck tcpm version I am learning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBGGtF04IQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7n_It4tdcc

http://www.youtube.com/user/meanliar#p/a/u/1/rnFxUFyXLNU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pia3VOSXEw0

[QUOTE=TaichiMantis;1136782]This is the cck tcpm version I am learning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBGGtF04IQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7n_It4tdcc

http://www.youtube.com/user/meanliar#p/a/u/1/rnFxUFyXLNU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pia3VOSXEw0[/QUOTE]

Dan Zhai Mei Hua is a different form unrelated to Mei Hua Lu. But a nice form.

I have suspected for some time that Mei Hua Lu-Plum Flower Road, is another version of Luanjie.
I don’t have any solid proof, to go on, just something I try to keep my eyes open for when looking at the different families and varieties of these two forms.
As of yet, I have not found any links in performance that would indicate that they are related.

As far as performance;
A move near the beginning of both forms called Tyrant takes the helmet in mei hua lu is similar in application to Maiden Threads the Needle of Luanjie.

The name Luanjie has also been called MeiHua Lu at least in the QIng Dynasty.

Tyrant Takes the Helmet and Mei Hua Lu

[QUOTE=Paul T England;1136780]WHF version is close to CCM version but has an extra run at end.

How come we have so many differences between WHF and CCM versions?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk[/QUOTE]

LOL! Not brave enough to touch that political hot potato!!! :eek:

Kevin,
Excellent articles on four moves of Meihua Lu at your site!

WHF Quan Pu of Meihua Luo

Here is my English translation, along with the pinyin for the Chinese characters, of the Wong Hon Fan version of the quanpu for the form:

WHF Mei Hua Luo Translation
Plum Flower Falling

  1. Rear Pattern, Double Overturn Palms
    bei shi shuang fu zhang
  2. Topple Power, Catch Cicada Pattern
    dao shi bu chan shi
  3. Enter Ring, Single Arm Claw
    ru huan dan bi zhao
  4. Raise Leg, Thrust at Face Palm
    ti tui ying mian zhang
  5. Penetrating Palm, Seal, Stride Step
    chuan zhang feng deng yong
  6. Rising Pattern, Overturn Bottom, Catch Hold
    qi shi fan di jie
  7. Enter Ring, Right File Palm
    ru huan you cuo zhang
  8. Raise Leg, Right Offer the Peach
    ti tui you xian tao
  9. Enter Ring, Right Rolling Arm
    ru huan you gun bang
  10. Ascend Mountain, Right Uppercut Strike
    deng shan you cuo chui
  11. Enter Circle, Right Waist Cut
    ru huan you yao zhan
  12. Seal Hand, Left Gathering Strike
    feng shou zuo tong chui
  13. Collapse Stance, Left Fill In Strike
    tun chang zuo bu chui
  14. Ascend Mountain, Right Crushing Strike
    deng shan you beng chui
  15. Right Close Door Leg Method
    you bi men tui fa
  16. Ascend Mountain, Ten Character Strike
    deng shan shi zi chui
  17. Pouncing Leg, Left Circle Strike
    pu tui zuo quan chui
  18. Ascend Mountain, Left Crushing Strike
    deng shan zuo beng chui
  19. Seven Star, Left Hook Hand
    qi xing zuo diao shou
  20. Seven Star, Right Fill In Strike
    qi xing you bu chui
  21. Ascend Mountain, Right Returning Palm
    deng shan you fan zhang
  22. Advancing Pattern, Leaking Chop Palm
    jin shi lou qie zhang
  23. Withdraw Step, Left Gathering Strike
    che bu zuo tong chui
  24. Ascend Mountain, Right Circle Strike
    deng shan you quan chui
  25. Ascend Mountain, Right Uppercut Strike
    deng shan you cuo chui
  26. Enter Ring, Right Waist Cut
    ru huan you yao zhan
  27. Gathering Punch, Ten Character Leg
    tong chui shi zi tui
  28. Horse Pattern, Right Split Stop
    mah shi you pi ga
  29. Right Sweeping Wing Kicking Leg
    you lue chi ti tui
  30. Ascend Mountain, Left Straight Gathering
    deng shan zuo zhi tong
  31. Straddle Tiger, Left Single Whip
    kua hu zuo dan bian
  32. Straddle Tiger, Left Hook Hand
    kua hu zuo diao shou
  33. Ascend Mountain, Right Circle Strike
    deng shan you quan chui
  34. Horse Pattern, Leaking, Stop Knee
    mah shi lou ga xi
  35. Right Circle, Single Whip Pattern
    you quan dan bian shi
  36. Ascend Mountain, Right Uppercut Strike
    deng shan you cuo chui
  37. Enter Ring, Right Waist Cut
    ru huan you yao zhan
  38. Ascend Mountain, Right Returning Palm
    deng shan you fan zhang
  39. Middle Pattern, Right Greeting Circle
    zhong shi you jiao quan
  40. Ascend Mountain, Right Circle Strike
    deng shan you quan chui
  41. Ascend Mountain, Right Uppercut Strike
    deng shan you cuo chui
  42. Withdraw Step, Hang, Gathering Strike
    che bu gua tong chui
  43. Ascend Mountain, Right Split Stop
    deng shan you pi ga
  44. Kick Leg, Right Rolling Arm
    ti tui you gun pang
  45. Withdraw Step, Big Wheel
    che bu da fan che
  46. Continue Advancing, Three Pulleys
    lian jin san lu lo
  47. Raise Leg, Left Uppercut Strike
    ti tui zuo cuo chui
  48. Raise Leg, Right Uppercut Strike
    ti tui you cuo chui
  49. Double Seal Hands, Stride Step
    shuang feng shou deng yong
  50. Withdraw Step, Left Carry Palm
    che bu zuo tiao zhang
  51. Withdraw Step, Right Carry Palm
    che bu you tiao zhang
  52. Turn Body, Double Bind Legs
    zhuan shen shuang kun tui
  53. Straddle Tiger, Left Carry Palm
    kua hu zuo tiao zhang

I would love to see the Meihua Tanglangquan quanpu if anyone has it. HINT! HINT! :slight_smile:

Let me say I hate martial politics and don’t want to get into right or wrong.

There are clear differences in forms done by different families of mantis as with every other martial art.

It would be nice to have open discussions on the why and how this has happened. Lets be honest its just evolution.

On another note, my understanding is that at least hong kong schools often have signature starts or ends or even combinations in there forms to identify their school. Wing Chun and CLF at least have this evolution so I would not be supprised if it happened with mantis as well.

WHF group seem to have had alot of cross over with CCK mantis and its welknown that CCM did eagle claw before mantis so as a good great grandstudents of these great masters it would be good to have a better understanding of from where the water flows.

Oh before people say ask your sifu, maybe they are too close and traditional to have open disucssions around such topics but surely us western 21st century boys can have mature discussions.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1136837]I would love to see the Meihua Tanglangquan quanpu if anyone has it. HINT! HINT! :)[/QUOTE]

It is in zhang bing dou’s book

so what is the meaning of “plum flower” in both these forms? they must be related somehow…just curious:o

[QUOTE=Paul T England;1136868]
There are clear differences in forms done by different families of mantis as with every other martial art.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk[/QUOTE]

Paul,
Can you share the differences between the CCM version of Meihua Lu and the WHF version that I posted?

[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1136880]It is in zhang bing dou’s book[/QUOTE]

Do you know where this is available? I checked the internet but couldn’t find a reference to it? Is it in English or Chinese?

[QUOTE=TaichiMantis;1136782]This is the cck tcpm version I am learning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBGGtF04IQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7n_It4tdcc

http://www.youtube.com/user/meanliar#p/a/u/1/rnFxUFyXLNU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pia3VOSXEw0[/QUOTE]

Hi TaiChiMantis,

Kevin is correct that DanZhai MeiHua has nothing to do with Mei Hua Lu, which is created by Jiang Hua Long.

Our DZMH has many classic combinations from other forms found in our line such as 12 old hands (I recently learned this form), Bengbu, Lanjie, Jiegun, Bazhou, Zhai Yao. This is interesting in that it shows consistency within the style. There is clearly a thread through the style.

DZMH has elements of Zhai Yao in it plus a few more kicks than our other forms. In a sense, this is more of a representation of Sun Yuan Chang’s “personal” style to me.

Lanjie, Jiegun, DanZhai MeiHua, Bazhou, Zhai Yao is, in my mind, the five petals of the plum blossoms of CCK TCPM. DZMH is the hub or highlight of Sun Yuan Chang’s personal style.

Warm regard

Robert

[QUOTE=TaichiMantis;1136887]so what is the meaning of “plum flower” in both these forms? they must be related somehow…just curious:o[/QUOTE]

Plum Flower usually refers to the five hands which are “Gou” (hook), “Lou” (grab), “Cai” (pluck), “Gua” (hanging), “Pi” (split/chop).

In the Greater Meihua Line, the plum flower would be the five hands used in conjunction with the 5 leaks. So as far as I am concerned, one will not be doing MH without the five hands and five leaks together.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Warm regard

Robert

:)thanks very much Robert! We have a sub-group of female students that meet at eachother’s homes for good food, drink, and stories. We call ourselves the Plum Flower Ladies! Sify Li usually shows up for awhile and we get him to tell us stories about Sigung and his time in Vietnam.

I thought you had ZHang Bingdou’s book. I don’t know where it is available, maybe on some book site. I noticed it has once again been reissued last time I was in CHina. I didn’t buy it though.

[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1137408]I thought you had Zhang Bingdou’s book. I don’t know where it is available, maybe on some book site. I noticed it has once again been reissued last time I was in CHina. I didn’t buy it though.[/QUOTE]

Nope, don’t have it yet. But I did find where I could order it and should receive it Monday if not before. :slight_smile:
Thank you for pointing me to it!

After I translate the quan pu of Meihua Lu, I will post it for all to see.

Here is Zhang Bingdou’s (TJMH TLQ) quan pu for the first road of Meihua Lu:

táng láng shung fng xià
Praying Mantis Double Seals Descend

zu fng yòu bì zhu
Left Seal, Right Forearm Elbow

chán lóng hù yn d
Coiling Dragon, Eye Protecting Strike

zu qín yòu dèng tà
Left Capture, Right Trample Step

bà wáng qù zhi ku
Overlord Takes the Helmet

qín fà cuò zu b
Capture Hair & Break Mouth

shung jiào shung bng zhu
Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow

zu fng yòu bng din
Left Seal, Right Crashing Strike

tu zhn mó pán d zhng táng
Steal Open, Millstone Strike to Middle Hall

fèng huáng sn dian tóu
Phoenix Thrice Nods It’s Head

lín xíng yun yang jio
Moving Mandarin Duck Leg

[INDENT]
shung jiào shung bng zhu
Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow[/INDENT]

What you put for ‘bang’ is ’ augmented’
THat is a tough one to translate. Old manuals use a different character.
7* in HK uses the character that means ‘to help’ which makes sense.
But I have heard also that it is from a verb to do a job such as rowing a boat or pulling a bucket out of a well.

I would like to see more work done on this characer, I think it relies on some shandong dialect and won’t be found in standard dictionaries..

As for your choice of invitation, why that and not provoke?

[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1137527][INDENT]
shung jiào shung bng zhu
Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow[/INDENT]

What you put for ‘bang’ is ’ augmented’
THat is a tough one to translate. Old manuals use a different character.
7* in HK uses the character that means ‘to help’ which makes sense.
But I have heard also that it is from a verb to do a job such as rowing a boat or pulling a bucket out of a well.

I would like to see more work done on this characer, I think it relies on some shandong dialect and won’t be found in standard dictionaries..

As for your choice of invitation, why that and not provoke?[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“5”][/SIZE]

Kevin,
Respectfully, I don’t think it is that tough to interpret.

Yes, I have seen this word translated as “help” (as in “helping elbow”). However, I do not think it clarifies what the technique entails.

IMO the structure of the technique reveals the proper interpretation of the word.

The forward arm is helped, reenforced, or augmented by the pressure that is exerted upon it by the rear hand. Alone, the forward arm is weak. But with the pressure of the rear hand pressing against the forward arm near the wrist, the structure is much stronger.

The word augment means “to make something greater by adding to it”. Thus, I believe augment is a more precise term than help when the structure of the technique is considered.

To help others who may not be familiar with the technique that we are talking about, I will offer this picture: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150337048594481&set=a.439598454480.197292.750549480&type=3&theater

[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1137527][INDENT]
shung jiào shung bng zhu
Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow[/INDENT]

As for your choice of invitation, why that and not provoke?[/QUOTE]

In the HK Seven Star version of this set, the augmented elbow is preceded by the arm motion known as “offer the peach” ( - xiàn táo). As explained by my Sifu, the action deflects the attacker’s forward moving arms upward and forward to off-balance him and set him up for the augmented elbow strike.

I saw this as similar to the philosophy behind the White Ape Invites Guest (bái yuán qng kè) technique. While exerts pressure forward and downward, and exerts pressure forward and upward, both share the same strategy: to off-balance the opponent and set them up for the strike.

I also was unaware of the definition “provoke” for (jiào). So, perhaps I am completely lost in a wilderness of words on . :slight_smile:

Can you shed light on how “provoke” come into play in this technique?

The translation I felt was the most questionable was:

chán lóng hù yn d
Coiling Dragon Guard Eye Strike

I understand the technique, but the quanpu is quite muddy to me. Any thoughts?

As always, thank you for your insights!

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1137630]The translation I felt was the most questionable was:

chán lóng hù yn d
Coiling Dragon Guard Eye Strike

I understand the technique, but the quanpu is quite muddy to me. Any thoughts?

As always, thank you for your insights![/QUOTE]

A coiling or wrapping dragon can often be seen in temples around the beams and pillars. Mantis already has the custom of calling the arm a pillar as do other martial art styles.
So, for a dragon to coil about a pillar is like my hand wrapping around your hand as I deliver eye protecting strike.

Dragons on pillars and roof beams