I have a two part question for 7 star mantis practitioners.
The question is in reference to the form( Bak Yuen Tau Tou or White Ape Steals the Peach.) I have seen the form played by practitioners from various lineages, for some reason it seems that the move which gives this form it’s name is missing from the Wong Hung Fung version, Also, I’ve heard that there is actually two roads to this form…
Any info on this will be appreciated thanks in advance.
Peace
Hello RAYNYSC,
Try this
regards,
UM.
Hey UM,
The link you put up isn’t working.
Peace
try now
-TkdWarrior-
Originally posted by TkdWarrior
[B]try now
-TkdWarrior- [/B]
oops
thx,
UM.
Thanks for the link although helpful I’m not really looking for the philosophical aspect of the term.
What I was asking was where is the specific move which gives the form it’s name. It seem to be missing from the Wong Hung Fung version.
Peace
Raynsync
Do you practice Mantis? Have you seen Won’s book on the form? If you have than it doesnt seem like you practioce mantis, unless you have seen it from someonelse and they FORGOT the form, quite a few people fprget forms, and mix different forms into eaxhotyher. Monkey steals teh peach is a from with 25 movements, with two roads, if by roads you mean 2 lines to teh form.
re-read the thread
RAYNYSC ,
What I was asking was where is the specific move which gives the form it’s name.
Knowing the applications to the form coupled with the thread mentioned you will be able to find stealing the peach. It is present in the form.
mantis_seeker
In our version of the form we do have a move which seems to be missing from the WFH version. BTW, I just finished watching a tape where I have the late Brendan Lai performing this very form. I also have an article by Jon Funk where he was photographed doing the entire form and I have seen his student Dwight Edwards doing the form as well as others. The technique in question does seem to be missing from the form. It is true that people will forget moves and even entire sequences sometimes but isn’t it strange that everyone I have seen do the form “forgets” the same move at the same exact spot ?
Please do not misinterpret this as an attack on the WHF lineage ( I am sure some will ). All I am saying is that to use the excuse that maybe it was “forgotten” is a real weak arguement. I know full well that there are diffrences in forms from lineage to lineage ( sometimes even in the same lineage ) for whatever reason, but it would seem to me that at least the moves which give the form it’s name would be included in the forms providing the common thread throughout the different lineages.
Anyway, the move in question comes right after the kneeling stance and topple sequence. For example, in the beginning of the form there is an upward armbreak ( basic and common application ) afterwhich, you go into a right kneeling stance and press the left fist into your right forearm which is perpendicular to your torso. It is a pressing movement which we simply call topple. It is a lower body attack. As your opponent is pushed backwards and struggling to maintain balance the right hand is sharply used to attack the opponent’s private parts. It is sort of a back hand and is done with a flicking action. We call it stealing hand. In fact , it is the very first move in Chop Choy, only it is done in a kneeling stance. Because in this sequence the stealing hand is attacking the groin area it is called stealing the peach.
I hope this has been helpful. Also, there is in fact two parts to this form. I believe the WHF lineage teaches the 2nd part which is the one more commonly seen and the CCM lineage teaches the 1st part. These 2 forms are actually one form and can be linked together and performed as one form.
Peace
Originally posted by loki
[B]In our version of the form we do have a move which seems to be missing from the WFH version… I hope this has been helpful. Also, there is in fact two parts to this form. I believe the WHF lineage teaches the 2nd part which is the one more commonly seen and the CCM lineage teaches the 1st part. These 2 forms are actually one form and can be linked together and performed as one form.
Peace [/B]
Hello Loki,
Fascinating – I did not know there was a part 1 and part 2 ??? I practice the WHF version. Can you advise were I might find a book or print of the CCM version ? Perhaps a web site that shows it ?
thx in advance,
UM.
My point exactly loki thanks for the info on the 2 roads…
Peace
loki…
i’m WHF lineage…i’m curious about a couple of things…
are you saying that you guys play an additional strike to the groin at, what we would call, the end of the first line? if yes, that’s very interesting. do you feel it was a chu chi man (CCM) innovation OR do you think it was long forgotten early on in WHF’s career and simply never passed on OR do you think that lo gwon yuk (LGY) taught them differently?
having said that, do you guys use the strike at the end of your first line, a strike to the groin area, as the ‘peaches’ reference analogy? typically WHF people hear about the first move, a strike to the groin, as being the ‘stealing peaches’ reference. speaking of which, is the first move of your version a groin strike also?
i’ve never seen the set played your way, do u step or shuffle forward in any way or is it purely a hand gesture?
or there any other cool similarities or differences? it seems you have access to some video footage of WHF types playing and teaching their stuff…is there video material available from the CCM side as a reference for us WHF people? any good websites?
sorry for all the questions…
ninjaboy
Hi UM,
Sorry, I don’t think that there is any printed material of this form from the CCM side.
Ninjaboy, no apologies necessary. 
Yes, I am saying that there is a specific groin strike at the end of the first line. The same move is done again two more times on the other side as you go back to the starting point of the form. I really cannot say if this is a CCM innovation. That would not really make sense because like I said before , this is the move that gives this form it’s name. As far as CCM making any innovations I would have to say that it was adding more eagle claw techniques to the forms. CCM was an Eagle Claw expert at Jing Mo before he became LKY’s student. In our line of mantis (Chiu Luen ) there is a heavy influence of eagle claw.
The first move in our version is exactly the same as yours. Although one of it’s usages is a groin strike we don’t consider it to be in line with the characteristics of a stealing the peach move. The intention is not to hit the groin with full force but to tap the groin with a sharp tapping action with as close to the fingertips as possible. This can actually be more painful for the opponent because the target area is conentrated on a very small area. Because the first move of the form is hitting with a large area namely, the wrist with what is called a negative hook (reverse diu sao) it is not really a concentrated move so I don’t see it as a stealing the peach action. Another point to take into consideration is that many of the 7 star mantis forms begin with this move and no one addresses these forms as stealing the peach as well, right ?
The move is done with a shuffle step forward. I don’t think that there is too much on a commercial level. Lee Kam Wing put some tapes out but even his stuff is a little different from ours. Hope this has been helpful.
Peace
Greetings Ninjaboy,
I would just like to add to my student’s (Loki) comment. the Two forms are indeed taught in our lineage. However they are also taught in other lineages as well. The book "SanDong Tong Long has both forms. This book was written by Lam Wing Kit.
This book is all in Chinese without pictures. In other words just the kuen po of the sets . It is often said by the late Brendan lai that Wong Hon Fun never taught all of the sets he knew. So the 1st road of Bak Yuen Tau Tao could just be one of them.
There are also two roads (forms) for the Bak Yuen Chut Dung.
Steals The Peach
LawClansman,
Great to hear from you! I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you on the phone and hearing your perspectives. I always learn a great deal from you and I encourage you on your projects to promote the art.
As for the topic of a “Stealing the Peach” movement. According to the Shangdong Tanglang Quan Pu by Lam Wing Kit, neither the first or second roads of the White Ape Steals the Peach, has a movement called, “stealing the peach”. Therefore it can be concluded that, at least for independent researchers and for the WHF branch, the form does not derive its name from a specific movement by that name.
Nor is there a groin strike of any kind at the end of the first road of either first or second half of the set as recorded by this reference. So it can be concluded that for independent researchers and for the WHF and CCY branches, this is not essential for the set’s validity. It would seem that this is a CCM addition, though it sounds like a very effective though apparently later addition.
That the CCM branch has made innovations is something that Sifu Carl and I have discussed somewhat. The additional emphasis on the fast and fluid Eagle Claw methods is something that intrigues me greatly. That there were innovations by CCM and names for that innovation is both fitting and honorable.
The second road of Lam Wing Kit’s book on Hongkong Tanglang does match exactly the WHF version. That it may not match the CCM version is no indictment, however. Sifu Carl and I have already discussed the development of Tanglang by both WHF and CCM and that this book is an interesting guide but that neither can be held to standards other than their own.
Great topic, RAY
Steve Cottrell
Wow, this thread is amazing. I mean having both Sifu Albright and Sifu Cottrell in the same thread sharing information with us all. Indeed a great thread. Thank you.
BTW, What do you both think of Sifu Lam’s book? I think it’s rather interesting to see my style’s forms written in that Quan Pu format. Also I would like to get your opinions on the 2 men forms curriculum in the last section of the book if you don’t mind. Thank you.
Mantis108
Hi Robert,
Sorry that my computer time is extremely limited so my posts are sporadic. Questions can always be directed to my email
sevenstarmantis@hotmail.com
or
lawclansman@prodigy.net
Sifu Cottrell is correct in that the Kuen Po of the San Dong book does NOT contain the aforementoned stealing peach movement. I referenced the book to point out that there are two roads / forms entitled White ape steals peach. In fact in BOTH roads the “stealing peach” method is employed at each end of a row of techniques after the “gwon bong” / topple (circle entering step with forearm press) in our version of these sets.
The kuen po holds the skeletal key to the sets. In other words Bung Bo is not muy fa kuen. As long as the sets conform to the overall outline of the forms, the variations are indeed all valid. If someone played a move here or there diferently, it only means that that is the way it is passed through their line.
In the CCM line, there are 8 “Bak Yeun” sets. 2 of each:stealing peach, emerging from cave, watching the banquet and bows north. as stated on my forms list.
http://www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/forms.html
This list omits the example of the two roads of steals peach and emerges from cave. To be corrected on a future update.
Another varaition of the steals peach set (2nd road) is the use of the whirling Diu Sao with jumping kick instead of the jumping huen choy (roundhouse strike). This is, I believe, the version that was taught by the Mantis Monks of Yip Ming Duk temple, See pic on:
http://www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/chiuleun.html
At some point I will do an article on these monks. perhaps in the New Mantis Quarterly courtesy of Steve Cottrell.
Stealing The Peach
Mantis108, Sifu Carl,
Greetings gentlemen!
As Sifu Carl has eloquently said the Quanpu of Lam Wing-Kit is indeed an outline of HK Tanglang. It is overall the outline of the CCM line of HK 7*. That he is not a part of any of the larger organizations and has no political adgenda, I consider him objective. Lam Wing-Kit was a direct student of Chu Chi Man, as I understand it, and set about to document the sets and techniques of that system and that of his other pursuit, that of Taiji Tanglang.
As Sifu Carl has already said, Lam Wing-Kit’s book is the outline of CCM Tanglang Quanpu. There are variations present throughout his wide martial following, to be sure. All are acceptable, being propagated by honorable men pursuing excellence in this art we all love.
However, since RAY has brought up this thread stating that he has seen different branches of Tanglang all of whom had this move entitled “White Ape Steals The Peach” except the WHF branch, I must continue.
As far as I can tell, among the CCM lines, only Chu Leung’s branch has this movement. That is no criticism, believe me. I fully endorse such diversity in the system, (as if he need it, haha), and development by such men as Chu Leung. In the WHF branch Philip Man Chow has made great innovations to the sets given to him by WHF.
I would like to know what other lines have this movement that RAY has seen?
I too must go but will be back tomorrow.
Again RAY, great that you have brought up this thread, there is MUCH yet to discuss!
Mantis108, my appologies, but I will get back to you on LWKit’s book!
RAY, great thread!
Peace!
Steve Cottrell
Good Post.
Tou Tao!
Hi Sifu’s Cottrell, Albright and others…
To make matters more complicated…
Stealing the peach as a form exists in two routes as Bai Yuan Tou Tao and one as Tanglang Tou Tao in Luo Guangyu’s lineage. Tanglang Tou Tao from H.K is the same form known in China as Bai Yuan Tou Tao. This form was also known as Qixing Tanglang Bai Yuan Tou Tao which was shortened in both Shandong and Shanghai to become two different titles. It is most commonly referred to these days in Shandong as ‘Tou Tao’, which avoids some of the confusion.
The movement ’ Stealing the Peach’ is not a groin strike in Shandong Tanglang. It is a jumping knee with a cross pull, and is definitely found in the form Bai Yuan Tou Tao (Jing Wu’s ‘Tanglang Tou Tao’) near the end of the third duan. This movement is found in other Qixing forms and is always called ‘Stealing the Peach’. The ‘peach’ represents the groin in some southern styles but is different in the case of Tanglang forms due to the actions representing specific sections of the white ape legend.
Another point of interest, literal or explanatory Quan Pu and classic four character Quan Pu often use totally different names fot the same technique or combination.
Hope this murks things up!
Brendan Tunks