I re-viewed some of my WHF books and Lee Kam Wing books. Threw a video of Sifu Brendan Lai in the machine and traced his steps one frame at a time through Bung Bo and then Monkey Steals Peach. I am looking for nothing and everything. After replaying the form Steals Peaches several times I noticed Sifu Lai does something very interesting.
In (7 Star) Monkey Steals Peach we do a right kick with simultaneous right hook punch, twice. In the first case we do so combining a left mantis hook and left kick followed by jump off the right then making the right kick with right hook punch. In the second case we are turning 180 degrees (to left) out of a right hill climbing stance making left mantis hook followed by right kick and right hook punch.
Now I was taught that in each case the right hook punch attacks laterally from right to left originating from the waist and immediately lifting to shoulder height for the strike. This is how Sifu Lai does the hook in the first case.
It was the second case that caught my attention – as Sifu Lai makes the turn with the left mantis hook, rather than returning the right fist to ready position (as in the first case) he lets the right arm drop to his right side (it almost looks paralyzed hanging downwards) where it drags behind his right kicking leg by a fraction of a second and as the kick unloads his right arm follows not on a lateral or horizontal path but a split second behind the leg and on a vertical path hooking upwards. This is a much shorter strike than the first case. Very stealthy, I like it.
So why is this a revelation ? Well IMO it completely changes the technique and it is clear from Sifu Lai’s example that these are not necessarily repeats as I was taught. In fact I am already working on new applications as per Sifu Lai’s example and plan on incorporating his method into my version of the form.
So there you have it I learned something new today and you know this happens everytime I take a closer look at 7 Star which makes PM very, very cool… IMO.
… which movement you mean and if you perform the form in the same way, that we do.. but I understood which was the second movement turning 180 degrees around.. I think again followed by a movement a bit different to what we are used to ..?
Our version of the ba yuen tao to is: turning 180 degrees around, pulling an imagined right arm( of the opponent) to performers right side with force ( diagonally) first grabbing, then closing both hands to a fist in the form while simultaneously stepping in with left standing leg and kick with right leg sab tsi toi = cross-kick and hit with the upper side of the foot to the genitales, for example- I can also imagine a kick comming more from the side, not from downwards up -with the whole shin( because of close distance )to the stomach or the short rips.. while pulling the opponent into the kick..?
U.M: can you explain the right hook punch again? Is it a right OU=hook and then punch, or is it a hook in the sense of a boxers hook, for example?
Originally posted by tanglang
[B… U.M: can you explain the right hook punch again? Is it a right OU=hook and then punch, or is it a hook in the sense of a boxers hook, for example? [/B]
Well of course it depends on how you play the form ? I was taught (in both cases) the hook is a roundhouse style punch with fist and palm facing away from you in other words when you contact you can see the back of your fist.
The difference is this – in the first case the punch occurs on a lateral plane you are clearly attacking from the side and above. In the second case, as per Sifu Lai’s example, the roundhouse rises vertically and makes the snap hook at the last and just prior to contact.
About the example you gave, I believe that it comes after the last kick/roundhouse punch at the end of the form. In that technique I play it similarily, essentially left and right grabbing, secure and kick to the lower gate. Curious, do you have WHF’s book for reference ?
Originally posted by ursa major
In the second case, as per Sifu Lai’s example, the roundhouse rises vertically and makes the snap hook at the last and just prior to contact.
ursa major,
This was one of the advanced or finesse methods of doing hook punch as Sifu Lai taught it.
No, I’m sorry, I don’t have yet as they are not easy and not so cheep to become in Germany, but I’ll try to get some via e-bay as fast as possible..seems you perform the form totally differnt.. and Steve helped out: I understand now that you mean a huen choi… but still I don’t know were you are in the form.. too much differences, I’m sure
The White Ape Steals the Peach has two parts in Chu Chi Man’s Tanglang. The set that Wong Hon Fun people play is the second half of Chu Chi Man’s White Ape Steals the Peach. If you know both halves it is the 9th and the 17th movement of the second half of this set. It is this movement that Ursa Major is refering to in his post.
The White Ape Steals the Peach has two parts in Chu Chi Man’s Tanglang. The set that Wong Hon Fun people play is the second half of Chu Chi Man’s White Ape Steals the Peach. If you know both halves it is the 9th and the 17th movement of the second half of this set. It is this movement that Ursa Major is refering to in his post.
Hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell [/B]
Whoa… sorry if I sound like a dummy but… do you mean we have a 1st and 2nd set of Ape Steals the Peach in 7 Star !!! Are there any pics of these online ?
thx in advance,
UM.
Whoa… sorry if I sound like a dummy but… do you mean we have a 1st and 2nd set of Ape Steals the Peach in 7 Star !!! Are there any pics of these online ? My curiousity is overwhelming me !
thx in advance,
UM. [/B]
In the WHF lineage, there is one set called “White Ape Steals the Peach”. It is the CCM lineage that has 1st and 2nd roads of this form. This particular form does not seem to be present in Mainland China although they do have a form by the same name that resembles very closely to LGY’s “Mantis Steals the Peach”. I am sure if you search, there are previous threads on this form in this forum.
Originally posted by ursa major Outstanding -N- this confirms then that it was not a happenstance of the video session itself.
Yes, that hook punch was done that way on purpose. That being said, Sifu Lai was very unhappy with his performance in that video, and I am told there was an agreement to exclude that form from the final compilation. But somehow it remained.
You might look at the follow-up techniques to those two hook punches to get a perspective on any apparent differences. After 1st hook punch is yeung bong. After 2nd hook punch is kwa tung chui.
Originally posted by German Bai Lung
[B]I think you guys mean:
ba yuen tao tou kuen AND ba yuen chot dong kuen!
So they are tought as one form “ba yuen tao tou” in the WHF Linage …
The moves UM describes are found in chiu Chi Mans Ba Yuen Chot Dong Kuen - white Ape leaves the cave… [/B]
German Bai Lung,
Sorry, that is NOT what I meant. “White Ape Steals the Peach” and “White Ape Exits the Cave” are two separate forms in the WHF lineage. Aside from the “White Ape” reference, the forms are unrelated and never considered one half of the other.
I believe in Lam Wing Kit’s book, he lists that CCM taught 2 forms for “Bahk Yuen Tao Tow”. I would need to check the book tonight to verify this. It is this reference that Sifu Cottrell and myself were referring to.
Just to get back to you, Lam Wing Kit does indeed list in his Shandong Tong Long Kuen Sut book:
Bahk Yuen Tchut Dong (yut lo) - White Ape Exits Cave (1st road)
Bahk Yuen Tchut Dong (yee lo) - White Ape Exits Cave (2nd road)
Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (yut lo) - White Ape Steals the Peach (1st)
Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (yee lo) - White Ape Steals the Peach (2nd)
The WHF lineage only has one of each. Although it appears not all CCM descendants list two roads for each of these forms.
Hmm- sorry, wrote a lot of p.ms and mails so read the intersting dicussion just now..
So there seem to exist two ba yuen tao to-versions then -I’m curious about your ba yuen tao to-version, U.M.? I have the Brendan lai- video Kung fu living ledgends filmed at wah lum- temple Orlando Florida.I hope you know this video as well?I think BL also performs the ba yuen tao to there, but totally different- and much longer..—ahh maybe there we go---- than our LKW- version. So can you tell me where the first part ba yuen tao to ends and the second beginns- or maybe Steve: do you know this video and can you tell me what is the last technique of first part and wher does the second part start ( which technique? I think helpfull as description would be cantonese terms, because then we don’t have to transfer from english via LKW-book into cantonese/german.. I think cantonese is easier for us..?lol -though I don’t speak any cantonese but relativly fluent english..in case of KF it’s harder for me in english though..
So I know how it looks like now. Second road of part two, I guess? Though the techniques remind me on our version so maybe second road of part one, -N- ?Does anyone know why there is a part one and a part two in WHF-system?
Originally posted by tanglang So I know how it looks like now. Second road of part two, I guess? Though the techniques remind me on our version so maybe second road of part one, -N- ?Does anyone know why there is a part one and a part two in WHF-system?
I think that is the point – there is only one part in the WHF system no second part.
and Steve helped out: I understand now that you mean a huen choi… but still I don’t know were you are in the form.. too much differences, I’m sure