7 Star: Exits Cave & Steals Peach

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

I am trying to find out history on some 7 Star forms.

I have found three dominant styles within 7 Star they are Monkey (White Ape), Praying Mantis and Black Tiger. Each method has a form ‘Exits Cave’ and "Steals Peach’. For instance:

  • Praying Mantis Exits Cave

  • Praying Mantis Steals Peach

  • Black Tiger Exits Cave

  • Black Tiger Steals Peach

  • White Ape Exits Cave

  • White Ape Steals Peach

I know very little of the origins of these forms nor why the two non-Mantis systems exist within 7 Star ? I have questions like:

  • what are the Monkey roots in 7 Star or Mantis ?
  • what are the Black Tiger roots in 7 Star or Mantis ?
  • why not a Crane or a Leopard ‘Exits Cave’ and ‘Steals Peach’ ?
  • are there more of these dual forms that I don’t know about ?
  • are these forms original or very recent additions ?
  • what does it mean to ‘Step out of Cave’ and ‘Steal Peach’ ??? Is there some translation problem here I have always had to hazard a guess when asked “what does it mean” ? Is this some kind of poetry ?

Your comments are appreciated,
UM.

2

Where did Grifters post go???

I saw a responce last night was it deleated?

Sakrd1

3

got a message

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
[B]Where did Grifters post go???

I saw a responce last night was it deleated?

Sakrd1 [/B]

Not sure where it went ? Technical difficulties ? I got a message that there was a reply on this thread from grifter721 but it is obviously not here now.

UM.

4

Steals peach= grab his babies.
Step out of the cave… Well you know what those moves are in the different forms..don’t you. If you do you can take it from there trust me.
The forms you metion are not at my disposal to be telling eveyone, i dont know how SIfu will feel about that.

5

Steals the peach

The famous 7* PM master of PRC, Li Zhanyuan, has a form called White Ape Steals Peach.

Huang Hanhsun, famous master of HK 7* has a form called Praying Mantis Steals Peach. Undoubtedly passed on to him by Luo Guangyu.

These two forms are the same form. As far as the name is concerned only the Steals Peach(Tou Tao) part matches. There is a good reason for this and that is that this form is often called Tou Tao for short.
If there is only one Tou Tao form then it is no problem, but after more Tou Tao forms are made up confusion sets in.
Most likely, Li Zhanyuan is correct, although that is debatable.

To my knowledge the old manuscripts of PM don’t include the names of any form you have mentioned except White Ape Steals Peach.

According to Ilya Profatilov this form is also found in Hao family Plum Flower PM as passed on to him.
Whether it is the same form I can not say.

Ursa Major,
About your questions…

Monkey roots in PM.
Later we can look at the text of Sheng Shao Dao Ren as well as the roots of Tong Bei to try and answer this question.

Black Tiger roots in PM
In Shandong there is a Black Tiger style of kung fu. Also the term black tiger is a PM technique in itself, such as black tiger steals the heart. This name is also listed as a PM form on Carl Albright’s web site.
Later I will tie this into the plum flower series of forms in 7* PM.

Why not Crane and Leopord?
Good question. It leads us onto another question.
Why would a tiger steal a peach? and is a little PM coming out of a cave such a big deal? It surely wouldn’t want to steal a peach.

The names of these forms are not very logical and were most likely coined because the White Ape Steals the Peach name sounds so good in the Chinese language. Later some new forms were created so part of an old name was borrowed.

More dual forms?
Yes I have seen a lot more than what you have listed. Most likely all recent innovations.

6

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
[B]Where did Grifters post go???

I saw a responce last night was it deleated?

Sakrd1 [/B]

I deleted the reply. I am tired of seeing “I know a possible answer but I can’t tell you because its a secret” replies. Either add to the thread with some info, or don’t post. I know this is a little hard nosed & maybe its just because I had a bad day yesterday, but I hate this type reply with a passion.
That is where the post went.

Tainan, very nice reply BTW. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
BTL

7

Tainan Mantis

I’m a little confused. I thought Huang Hanhsun passed down a White Ape and a Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. My lineage, Chun Chun Yee, is closely related to his and we have both forms.

Was that what you were trying to say? Or am I missing something?

Thanks for the reply.

Mantis9

8

In theory…

Seven Star has a few more influences than just mantis. Quite a few of these influences (ie White Ape, Black Tiger, etc) are both kept in their “original” form as well as presented in “Mantidized” version.

It would seem that Bai Yuan Tou Tao (White Ape Steal Peach) is in TJPM (Sun Yuen Cheung Lineage in Shangdong). However, there is no Tanglang Tou Tao (Mantis Steal Peach). To my mind this implies that Mantis Steal Peach is perhaps a 7 star adaptation only.

It is often said that Mantis Steal Peach (MSP) this is one of GM LGY’s favorite set. Also the 14 Road Tan Tui, which is GM LGY’s creation, seemed to be lifted right out from this form. So personally, I think that this form might provide a good perspective into looking at GM LGY’s Kung Fu.

Concerning the technical part:

I have seem the MSP and have collected drawings and names of the moves in the form. So I am looking at the techniques from an outsider point of view.

The first road (including the reserved PuChan opening) seems to be techs that are designed to deal with coming back from a disadvantage (ie lost of initiation time). Basically, a cluster of fast and hard punching techs coupled with takedowns (ie Jade ring waist chop and double Mantis hooks)

Second road seems to be the formidable Yuhuan Bu/Shou (Jade ring step/hand) in 7 star flavor.

Third road seems to be the Beng Chui Bi Men Jao (crunshing punch close door kick). Here are some of steals - low kick to the groin, and the Wo Tou Chui (punch to the lower stomach) is

Four road could be where the name of the form really came form. There are the grab throat and the steal heart punch.

This form seems to deal with the infinite changing possiblities of the basic five punches of Mantis puls the Hammer fist and the Go Lu Tsai hands at the very first glance but it gets to be far more interesting as digging deeper into it. I can see the awesome applications through the methods which Tainan Mantis showed me while he was visiting me. I can certainly understand why this form is considered an advanced form by some.

Mantis108

9

Re: Steals the peach

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]The famous 7* PM master of PRC, Li Zhanyuan, has a form called White Ape Steals Peach.

Huang Hanhsun, famous master of HK 7* has a form called Praying Mantis Steals Peach. Undoubtedly passed on to him by Luo Guangyu.

These two forms are the same form. As far as the name is concerned only the Steals Peach(Tou Tao) part matches. There is a good reason for this and that is that this form is often called Tou Tao for short.
If there is only one Tou Tao form then it is no problem, but after more Tou Tao forms are made up confusion sets in.
Most likely, Li Zhanyuan is correct, although that is debatable.

To my knowledge the old manuscripts of PM don’t include the names of any form you have mentioned except White Ape Steals Peach.

[/B]

Thx for your reply. You have said much and I have alot of home work to do to understand this history.

About the Mantis Steals Peach vs. Monkey Steals Peach, I practice both of these forms and find they are different in length, technique, stepping patterns, combinations of steps and combinations of upper and lower body movements. In fact I have found them to be remarkable in their differences as (to my mind) they emphasis very different aspects of 7 Star Mantis.

Do I understand correctly in that history records only one original “Ape Steals Peaches” form (Li Zhanyuan) ? Then the “Mantis Steals Peaches” is from another branch of a later date (Huang Hanhsun) ?

Somewhat confused, but slowly picking it up.
UM.

10

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
[B]I deleted the reply. I am tired of seeing “I know a possible answer but I can’t tell you because its a secret” replies. Either add to the thread with some info, or don’t post. I know this is a little hard nosed & maybe its just because I had a bad day yesterday, but I hate this type reply with a passion.
That is where the post went.

Tainan, very nice reply BTW. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
BTL [/B]

I appreciate your position on this matter.

UM.

11

Re: In theory…

Originally posted by mantis108
[B] … It would seem that Bai Yuan Tou Tao (White Ape Steal Peach) is in TJPM (Sun Yuen Cheung Lineage in Shangdong).

… Second road seems to be the formidable Yuhuan Bu/Shou (Jade ring step/hand) in 7 star flavor.

Four road could be where the name of the form really came form. There are the grab throat and the steal heart punch.

This form seems to deal with the infinite changing possiblities of the basic five punches of Mantis puls the Hammer fist and the Go Lu Tsai hands …
Mantis108 [/B]

I must expose my ignorance with more questions ,

  • what is TJPM ?
  • what is Jade ring step/hand ?
  • black tiger steals heart is this the repeated steps/methods we do in 2nd Set of Route Essence ?
  • what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?

I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms…

thx,
UM.

12

Mantis108.

Thank you for the reply. That sounds like MSP to me.

UM

Taiji Praying Mantis (TJPM) is a branch that began around the same time 7*. But, of course, that has been disputed. Mantis108 has a very informative web site on TJPM (maybe he could post a hyperlink.)

Jade ring step I’ve know to be called Monkey stance and circle entering stance.

I don’t think so.

Go Lu Tsai is the first three charater principle in Wong Long 12.
IT hook grab pluck

13

Hi Usra Major,

"I must expose my ignorance with more questions , "

I believe most of us in search of answer. Due to the lack of a well established documentation system, many of the “history” in CMA in general are mainly theorized presentations. Sometime we have to take things with a grain of salt. Like Mantis9 suggested, there are quite a bit of interesting and different information available out there. Some of them can be found on my Taiji Praying Mantis (TJPM) forum. Please feel free to visit us over there as well. :slight_smile:

TJPM Forum

“- what is TJPM ?”

It stands for Taiji (Tai Chi) Praying Mantis. There are many lineages in TJPM out there as well. Nowadays in the USA and Canada, there exist at least 2 contingents of TJPM that I am aware of. One is Sifu Ilya Profatilov who is currently operating under the Traditional Praying Mantis banner while he’s definitely TJPM (Song Zide lineage) and the other being the students of Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai (Sun Yuen Cheung Lineage). To distinguish the lineages, We often use CCK TCPM to indentify GM Chiu’s lineage which has materials that are not commonly found in most TJPM lineage. Hope this help. :slight_smile:

"- what is Jade ring step/hand ? "

According to Sifu Profatilov, this is one of the favorite techniques of GM Jiang Haulong who was a famous TJPM exponent. GM Jiang used this technique to defeat quite a few high calibur opponents. This move is a pretty interesting takedown technique. There is a thread on the TJPM forum about this technique.

"- black tiger steals heart is this the repeated steps/methods we do in 2nd Set of Route Essence ? "

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

  1. Left Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or left Bi Shr)
  2. Left Hiking stance Left filing punch/upper cut
  3. Left Hiking Stance right straigh punch (to the face)
  4. Horse stance left steal heart punch
  5. Right Forearm Chop plus Right low kick
  6. Repeat to the above (right side this time)
    …

BTW, Steal Heart Punch (direct punch to solar plex) is one the 8 forbidden strikes in Mantis.

“- what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?”

Hook-Grab-Pluck is the classic Mantis combo. There are quite a few ways to use it. It would seem that the Mantis Steal Peach form have some great combos to go with this hand.

"I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms… "

I believe half the battle of learning Mantis is in the enormous amount of terminology. Almost every school has a unique way of describing the same moves. Sometime we see debate which the parties involved are actually on the same side of the fence but arguing because of confusing terminology. That’s why it is a continuing effort for us to search for universal and traditional terminology for PM Kung Fu. Anyway, hope this help clarify certain things. :slight_smile:

Hi Mantis9

You are most welcome. Thanks for the support, response and the suggestion. :smiley: Really appreciate it.

Mantis108

14

BYTT triangulation

Ilya Profatilov has, thru private e-mails, helped to confirm what I had deduced from other sources as well as add some more fascinating historical facts to the White Ape Steals Peach(Bai Yuan Tou Tao or BYTT).

Wang Yongchun learned PM from “Fast Hands” Li in the late 1880’s. Generally this is considered the birth of 7* PM.
Depending on who you read there were between 2 to 6 forms taught by Li. Since those form names don’t include BYTT we can conclude that this form was a creation of Wang’s or he learned it somewhere else.

Wang had a friend named Hao Lianru who was a master of Plum Flower PM.
Wang taught his friend this form and so it passed on to the Hao family Plum Flower PM system.

Hao family Plum Flower PM was eventually passed on to Ma Hanqing(1920-1997), one of Ilya’s teacher. GM Ma taught it as the 2nd basic form(sure would like to see his advanced stuff).

According to him the old manuscript still exists which is in his possesion as well as other masters.

This form is still practiced today in Qing Dao, Yentai and Dalian regions.

Stealing the Peach does not mean grabbing someone’s privates as can easily be confirmed by looking at the old manuscript.
Peach means the opponents head, This technique is a head grabbing face smash.

HK 7*
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Guangyu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. They are not found in old lists of PRC 7* PM forms.

So the HK 7* BYTT is not that old form we have been talking about. It was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach.

15

Tainan Mantis

Cool. Thanks for the info. This is the first time I have heard this tid bit of information ( or is that informantis? )

LGY was a great innovator to our branch of PM and added many many forms to 7* PM curriculum. Many of the sifus in the states that I have been privileged to meet or witness demonstrate descended from him, so I see a lot of variation of theme; same form, slight different flavor. I been a bit naive it that regard, thinking most PM had ‘standard’ form found universally within the PM continuum.

Its a great pleasure talking to those of you in this forum about our respective style.

Mantis9

16

Originally posted by mantis108
[B]
In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

  1. Left Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or left Bi Shr)
  2. Left Hiking stance Left filing punch/upper cut
  3. Left Hiking Stance right straigh punch (to the face)
  4. Horse stance left steal heart punch
  5. Right Forearm Chop plus Right low kick
  6. Repeat to the above (right side this time)
    …

BTW, Steal Heart Punch (direct punch to solar plex) is one the 8 forbidden strikes in Mantis.

“- what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?”

Hook-Grab-Pluck is the classic Mantis combo. There are quite a few ways to use it. It would seem that the Mantis Steal Peach form have some great combos to go with this hand.

"I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms… "

I believe half the battle of learning Mantis is in the enormous amount of terminology. Almost every school has a unique way of describing the same moves. Sometime we see debate which the parties involved are actually on the same side of the fence but arguing because of confusing terminology. That’s why it is a continuing effort for us to search for universal and traditional terminology for PM Kung Fu. Anyway, hope this help clarify certain things. :slight_smile:

Mantis108 [/B]

Thx much for all the information.

Is TJPM the same as Tai-Chi PM ? If so I met some local TJPM people a few months back. As I understand it they are from Chiu Chuk Kai -> Kam Yuen -> Mike Vendrell lineage… or so their literature says. Very interesting variation of forms. We did Piercing Fist side by side and were amazed at the differences in the likeness.

I think I know what jade ring step/hand is. It is a take down that can be stepped into from many positions and is in most of the forms that I practice. We practice this for example, in the Bung-Bo (Crushing Step) two man fighting set.

Hook, grab, pluck is my favourite technique of Mantis. I have been exposed in-depth to many non-Mantis systems including Kempo, Karate, Jui-Jitsu, Hung-Gar, Long Fist and White Crane (probably left a few out) and never encountered anything like this method. In fact it singularily convinced me to emphasize my PM training over everything else.

What is 14 Road Tan Tui in English ? Can you translate for me ? I may know the form but have been taught it under a different name ?

Is a ‘Road’ akin to a line in the form ? Eg – a line in my terminology is to take several steps in one direction, north. When the form does a 180 degree turn in the other direction continuing now south – would the north line be one ‘Road 1’ and the south line be ‘Road 2’ and on and on ?

I agree the terminology battle is great. I practice about 31 PM hand forms and 7 weapons forms. I have them all written down in descriptive narratives that sometimes do not make sense even to me when I read them months later ! Now that I have put an end to the learning of new Mantis forms I have to find a standardized method of naming and categorizing as well as segregating of techniques and methods. I want to do so using the classical names of forms, steps and methods and if possible be able to identify the author as well. In most cases I haven’t a clue what the classical name would be or who the original author is. I have a book by Li Kam Wing The Secrets of PM Kung-fu which is very helpful but the translation suffers occasionally but it does help with things like ‘filing punches’, ‘drilling punches’, ‘millstone palms’, etc so I have something to work with.

thx again,
UM.

17

Re: BYTT triangulation

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Stealing the Peach does not mean grabbing someone’s privates as can easily be confirmed by looking at the old manuscript.
Peach means the opponents head, This technique is a head grabbing face smash.
[/B]

OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I’m not saying you’re wrong I just can’t think of where there is such a move in the form I’ve learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I’ve learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.

HK 7*
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Guangyu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. They are not found in old lists of PRC 7* PM forms.

So the HK 7* BYTT is not that old form we have been talking about. It was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. [/B]

Are you sure of this ? We have both BYTT and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and they are very different. My sifu’s sifu was from HK so I’m assuming its the same 7* branch.

18

Re: Re: BYTT triangulation

Originally posted by northernJump
OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I’m not saying you’re wrong I just can’t think of where there is such a move in the form I’ve learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I’ve learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.
Are you sure of this ? We have both BYTT and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and they are very different. My sifu’s sifu was from HK so I’m assuming its the same 7* branch.

Thanks for pointing this out I have some similar questions.

The versions of Mantis Steals Peach and White Ape Steals Peach that I practice both have lineage through Wong Hon Fun of HK. I did not learn these from WHF of HK although I have validated what I have learned by studying his scripts/books of same material.

The White Ape Steals Peach as I learned it and practice it – starts with (in my terminology) left circle entering with left palm block and right inverted mantis strike to groin followed by same hand tear off of groin then standing to right long-fist punch, etc. My understanding is that this strike and tear-off is the ‘Steals Peach’ in the form.

Oddly enough my Mantis Steals Peach has no similar technique.
This is one of the reasons I made the original post. If Ape Steals Peach is defined by the technique as described above then how does Mantis Steals Peach derive a similar name when it does not share the ‘steals peach technique’ ?

Always more questions than answers.

thx in advance,
UM.

19

I have been told that originally there was one form called simply “Tao Tow” (Steals Peach). I have heard that this form is sometimes referred to as “Bahk Yuen Tao Tow” (White Ape Steals Peach) in PRC China and under GM LGY’s lineage as “Tong Long Tao Tow” (Mantis Steals Peach) but is the same form. There is also a separate BYTT form in the LGY lineage that seems to have been added to the curriculum at a later time.

As far as the forms go, my versions sound like everyone’s accounts thus far for both BYTT and TLTT.

Ursa Major, if you are looking for the classical names for forms, I would suggest you to check out www.northernmantis.com. We list the forms we teach with the traditional Chinese characters, the Cantonese Pronunciations, and the English translations. If I remember correctly, you are a student of Sifu Phillipman Chow who is supposed to be of WHF lineage so the curriculum should be similar. I have noticed that Sifu Chow’s terminology or translation of form names differs from most other translations I have seen but the Chinese names should be consistent.

YM

20

great info

Originally posted by Young Mantis
… Ursa Major, if you are looking for the classical names for forms, I would suggest you to check out www.northernmantis.com. We list the forms we teach with the traditional Chinese characters, the Cantonese Pronunciations, and the English translations. If I remember correctly, you are a student of Sifu Phillipman Chow who is supposed to be of WHF lineage so the curriculum should be similar. I have noticed that Sifu Chow’s terminology or translation of form names differs from most other translations I have seen but the Chinese names should be consistent.
YM

Yes I agree there seems to be a terminology difference. I learned what you call Stabbing Fist as Lightning Attack. I have also heard of it as Piercing Fist. A fellow I know translated the Chinese characters for me says Piercing Fist is very close so I suppose is Stabbing Fist also. I now call the form Piercing Fist.

BTW: great web page thx for the link hopefully next time I am in NY, NY I can stop in for a visit ?

regards,
UM.