and the other thread said Tae Li was sneeky! 
david
TDK
Well, I have been working with so called IL-DO TKD before. They seems to have all different kind of specialistd working together as a team work–such as specialized in advertising, tournament, accounting, lesson plan, etc. As far as I know, most CMA are working solitaryly, and competing against other CMA rather, not working together at all.
Most of the so called traditional skill that they have, are taken form different styles of CMA, and yet, claim under the TKD style, and telling me how great the TKDs and Koreans are in compare to Chinese.
There used to be a student from Korea, Ko, practiced with us who had learned very old style of TKD, his skills has not that much of high kick at all, very close to a good ShiaoLin style. According to him, the TKD that he saw around in USA, is all new styles, he don’t want to practice new ones.
Then again, if CMA must stand up, we need have team work. We don’t have a universal standard either, like TKD has, to set CMA into a reliable order (CMA is a much larger field than TKD any ways).
If I would be in the business, the first one I will pick up on against will be TKD.
Hi PaulLin
tkd folks hate to admit to the fact, there young style has Northern Chinese influence, Totally watered down mind you! They are missing the whole picture. Much to our CMA demise in the USA, unfortunately, Americans are lazy, and do not have a high tolerance for pain. Face it, tkd is the American way of ma. It is very easy, belt ranking provides sense of accomplishment, Im somebody. PL they are clueless, you know what I mean. In my MA career, I have been invited to testing of Korean arts. Once, I asked a new black belt to show me an application out of the "pattern" just performed. Had no idea what it did. Then I asked the teacher, lets say I heard ummm. I did show the young man a Mantis version, he won`t forget. PaulLin, my e-mail is ripdogmantis@worldnet.att.net
There style is absurd and comical, if it was your first to pick on, wouldnt last long would it? Could be another thread, what many ways to defeat a tkd guy! Man I have a million!
totally
YuShan,
I couldn’t agree with you more. That kind of things in experiece with TKD is not new to me. I really can’t find a good TKD any where and the good older style of TKD that are really useful appeared to be only myth, fiction.
Oh yeah, we have many ways of defeading TKD techniques, way too easy. They really think that they can be like the proud comic heros, you can say that again.
I usually think that if any CMA people thinking that TKD has any use at all, I will totally doubt about the level of this person’s CMA, I would think he/she don’t really know CMA. And yet, there are many people claim that they perfession at CMA and TKD at the same time, I can’t see that is vaild, since a true good CMA will make TKD obsolate.
My father think that way too, so was GM Wei, GM Wang, and GM Chang.
without getting into the topic of whether you even should be teaching MAs to begin with.
If kung fu is not your passion then you should not be teaching it.
If you see kung fu as a $ sign then something is definately wrong.
If you are passionate about what you do and manage to make money doing it then more power to you.
speaking for myself and myself only right now " I would never ever comprise and teach weak **** to people just to make a few dolllars as been proposed on this thread." Just contributes to the watering down of CMA.
If people “REALLY” want to learn a martial art there is no easy way to do it. It hurts and you will get beat on at one point or another.
please don’t use any martial art just to make a buck, this kind of attitude really sickens me.
So what is a sifu to do?
Cry out that “I hate money” and close his school in the face of novice students?
Those of us who study kung fu in schools would then have no teacher at all - and it would be virtually impossible to find a sifu PERIOD.
I DEFINITELY see kung fu as a $ sign, and I’ll be doing everything in my power to earn as much as I can. If it means watering my art down so that SOMEBODY can learn SOMETHING, so be it. Any fulltime sifu worth his salt embraces the money ideal.
I see nothing wrong with wanting to reach a large number of people, many of whom will not train long in the martial arts due to lack of talent or commitment. They will form the bulk of my future business, and why shouldn’t I give them the best training for the limited time they intend to stay? If competitions and belts is what it’ll take to retain their interest so that they stay in the martial arts, so be it.
Watering down of CMAs? By what standard is that? What’s better, restricting one’s student base to a select few or SPREADING IT WIDELY so that people of all walks can enjoy it? The good students rise to the top regardless, just as they do at TKD schools all over the world.
I’d rather a student stay for promotions and glory than simply quit martial arts altogether - or run to the next sifu who offers the things that I do NOT.
PaulLin, you should’ve met some of the old TKD masters I trained with. These were hardened fighters who’d put chokeholds and dislocations on guys in real fights. My old TKD teacher knew exactly how to hit a guy to cause deep muscle damage without leaving an external bruise or break (internal strike).
Another one (50+ years in age) I knew could break a thick board that he held in one hand with a punch from the other hand. He did this for me in a seated position SLOWLY using a corkscrew motion of the TKD jing. I never could break a board that way and probably never will.
And even some of the younger TKD cats I’ve seen are horribly tough. It’s hard to catch these guys, particularly because modern style TKD rapid fire combinations come and go so quickly. I know - I was one of them.
HKV - good luck man, i think it’ll be a hard road but deeply rewarding 
This thread is really interesting for me, as it helps me understand a bit about the ‘business’ side of teaching MA as a living. It must be hard to generate enough income through dedicated students, if that’s your only living… at least right at the start.
So what can you do meantime to survive and keep the integrity of the skill? It’s a tough decision i think…
david
Here’s the thing, if you DON’T offer a watered down program, then it is extremely hard to make enogh $$ to quit yur day job, in which case by working all day, your skills will never be what they should be. AND you will not beable to pass on the arts as they should be either, thus ensuring the demise of the art. by watering it down, and running a profitable school, you at least will have the free time to fully cultivate your skills, and maybe those of a few truely devoted students along the way.
The way i see it, offering a watered down porgram allows the deicated to presue thier art to the fullest so in the end you have MORE real traditinal players with REAL skill, than if you don’t do it.
As for your Mcstudents, only a small hand full are capable of doing Kung Fu for real anyway, and if you tried to teach them that way they would all quit and do Tae Kwon Do, so nothing is lost by teaching them, and everything is gained.
So what’s the problem now??
As I have no intention of opening a for profit school, I don’t have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned on this thread.
However, if you do open a school, have easy stuff taught for the bulk of people, teach the few hardcore people the real deal, what do you tell the students of the “easy watered down” majority? That they are learning to fight? That they are not? Some will ask.
The other thing to beware of is opening many such schools.
Eventually, you will reach the point where you will not be aware of all of the people who should be in the hardcore group, and so you(or the schools instructors) will be teaching people who deserve the real training nothing more than the watered down stuff, and leading them to believe they are learning the real deal.
Eventually, they will leave, find the best teacher they can, and they will make a point of discrediting your school and in any way possible, which is as good as you will deserve, since you were responsible for teaching a worthy student poorly.
What do you tell the students who aren’t learning hard core, and thus aren’t learning properly?
At what point do you quit opening schools?
What is your criterion for those who make it into the hardcore group?
Is it fair to make a diligent student wait until they reach high rank to learn real kung fu?(In the case of schools with ranking systems)
Have you thoughroughly researched the down side of this type system of teaching? Not just the fact that your school will put out a large number of poor fighters(because remember, you will be judged by ALL of your students, not just the hardcore group), but the mental aspect; if you lead others to believe they are learning more than they are, many of them will eventually resent you for wasting their time.
If you tell them they are not really learning the real deal, you will lose students and anyway, the whole point of this sort of arrangement for a school is to keep students, so you are stuck in a possition where, at best, you will be lieing by ommission, and, at worst, you will be outright lieing.
Remember, as the students will often have a certain awe of you, every lie you make will be remembered, even by the hardcore group, and you are stuck spending the rest of your professional career supporting the lies from the past.
For those of you who believe martial arts should build character(I don’t necessarily hold to this, but I know many do), what is the character lesson of teaching your hardcore students that they are learning the right way, and the rest are taught the wrong way?
As I have no intention of opening a for profit school, I don’t have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned on this thread.
However, if you do open a school, have easy stuff taught for the bulk of people, teach the few hardcore people the real deal, what do you tell the students of the “easy watered down” majority? That they are learning to fight? That they are not? Some will ask.
Reply]
Simple, I sell them the Modern main stream Kung Fu system specifcally designed for the American public.
The other thing to beware of is opening many such schools.
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I am only interested in one location that will allow me to not have to work, yet live a comfortable life style.
Eventually, you will reach the point where you will not be aware of all of the people who should be in the hardcore group, and so you(or the schools instructors) will be teaching people who deserve the real training nothing more than the watered down stuff, and leading them to believe they are learning the real deal.
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Hm, hypothetically, “IF” I hads a chain of schools then those on the Mainsteam program (Recreational classes) would have to qualify to get on the traditional program. If they can’t meet the requirements, I won’t qualify them, and they must certify under ME to be on the traditinal program. I could also have a different uniform, or matbe a different ranking system. Like I said, I’m not interested in more than one school anyway. I’m trying to aleviate headeches as it is.
Eventually, they will leave, find the best teacher they can, and they will make a point of discrediting your school and in any way possible, which is as good as you will deserve, since you were responsible for teaching a worthy student poorly.
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No, I will have a reputation of running quality programs for the general public, AND a quality traditional program. One way to ensure this is to have general public students compete in the little local point tournamnets, but the traditional students fight in the Kou Shou, or San Shou tournaments. People will get the idea I have any students all competing at different levels.
What do you tell the students who aren’t learning hard core, and thus aren’t learning properly?
Reply]
I tell them they are on a simplified program designed for the typical American market. “IF” they “THINK” they are material for traditional training, and they PROVE that to me, they will be invited to train in the traditional program. The traditonal program will be scaled to match the hourly rate of the recreational program + some extra perks, like unlimmedted use of the facilitys, maybe lockers, showers etc, that way the students won’t be paying me any more per hour, and probually less if I can do it to help encourage people to try out for ithe program.
I will prescribe a series of performance standards, and the methods to achieve them. Once they do, I will give them the oppertunity to train on the traditional program on a probationary basis. if they do well, I will keep them there, and they will be happy. if not, they just go back to the Recreational program talking about how much stronger the traditional program is, and thus boost the desire of other students to try out for it.
At what point do you quit opening schools?
reply]
I can’t speak for all, but for me, I only want one. Anything more will be too much heache for me.
What is your criterion for those who make it into the hardcore group?
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I don’t know yet, I will have to come up with some way of identfying those that will thrive on a hard core enviroment, and implament a standard and fair way to qualify canidates. Got any idea’s??
Is it fair to make a diligent student wait until they reach high rank to learn real kung fu?(In the case of schools with ranking systems)
Reply]
No, that’s why I am going to set up some sort of qualifyng bench mark. Any student that can hit that mark regaurdless of rank will by considered a viable applicant
Maybe, I can make it so they must hit the 3rd rank before I will allow them to apply, that way they have the basics down and some fundementals, but I just don’t know how I’m going to do it yet. What do you think?
Have you thoughroughly researched the down side of this type system of teaching? Not just the fact that your school will put out a large number of poor fighters(because remember, you will be judged by ALL of your students, not just the hardcore group), but the mental aspect; if you lead others to believe they are learning more than they are, many of them will eventually resent you for wasting their time.
Reply]
That’s why I don’t mislead them, I explain UP FRONT what the various programs are, and what is taught, inclding posting the currinculem all the way up to Black sash on the wall somewhere. Nothing hiddden, and a clear defined path to follow from day one.
If you tell them they are not really learning the real deal, you will lose students and anyway, the whole point of this sort of arrangement for a school is to keep students, so you are stuck in a possition where, at best, you will be lieing by ommission, and, at worst, you will be outright lieing.
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Wrong, as the students that want recreational program, will stay for that, and the students that want the traditional program will be challenged to qualify as soon as they express a desire to do so. I will also be useing the traditional program as a selling and marketing point from day one, so students know what they are learning, and can chose the program best suited for them at any given time.
Remember, as the students will often have a certain awe of you, every lie you make will be remembered, even by the hardcore group, and you are stuck spending the rest of your professional career supporting the lies from the past.
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I’m a strait foreward kind’a guy. No lies will be nessasry. The truth will be a bigger selling point in a situation like this as the general population will see I have programs to cater to a larger variety of personal intrests. People will be able to find their nitch, and persue THEIR needs, not mine, and I still make a good living to boot!!
For those of you who believe martial arts should build character(I don’t necessarily hold to this, but I know many do), what is the character lesson of teaching your hardcore students that they are learning the right way, and the rest are taught the wrong way?
Reply]
It’s not a right or wrong training, its right or wrong for the student. A studnet with a hecktic scedual and family responsibiltys, would be on the wrong program if they were doing Traditional, when they only had time for the Recreational program.
Those with the time and desire, would be on the wrong program by being stuck in the rec. classes.
It’s not about right or wrong training, its about serving your client base correctly. The larger your client base, the more money you make, and the more secure and easy your life is. AND the more time you have to better your own Kung Fu
I want to teach a Shaoiln based system for the main stream recreational program, with 9 colored sashes, and only certifacation for beginner intermediat and advanced for the traditinal program, with NO outward recognition of rank. OR, I was thinking to give the Traditinal students a Purple sash only, or having NO ranks at all until black sash. That is the traditional way. Actually, the whole Black sash thing could considerably be pitched in the trash too, but I think maybe that one rank will be OK.
I’m still fromulating how I want to do this. I have plenty of time as I need to regain my health before any of this plays out. If I don’t do that first, it’s all fantasy anyway.
What do you think??
Your way seems viable enough. Since one school is your goal, you will be able to have awareness of the students at your school, and can fit their needs suitably.
I was a bit too either or in my post. One excellent teacher I had produced both kinds of students without telling anyone they were becoming good fighters. He did this by making the sparring classes a separate class from forms, all the students saw what was happening in the sparring class and knew that that was how you learned to fight in the school, and those who were more recreational, which is to be respected as well, had no difficulty doing so without difficulty or the need for having their egos fed by stories of the fierce fighting abilities they were learning.
In addition, he knew quite a bit of chi kung, and was able to offer those classes as well. This made an interesting mix, as you didn’t go in the school and even think about the fact that you might be one of his best external fighters, since the guy who left the school when you were just arriving was the chi kung top dog, and you were just an amateur in that field.
In my mind, its when people start opening nationwide chains that the credibility issue really starts to come up. All the best teachers I’ve seen own one school, not chains. The teacher should be there for his or her students.
In my mind, its when people start opening nationwide chains that the credibility issue really starts to come up. All the best teachers I’ve seen own one school, not chains. The teacher should be there for his or her students.
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In theory, I don’t agree with you, as strict quality controlls and certifacation standards from the home office can maintain quality controll.
BUT, in your defence, I can’t name a single large chain that is anything more than a chain of Mckwoons. Genarally schools with affiliates of the same family spread accross the nation have very high quailty reputations, but they are still individually owned, and only affiliated to the original school because they are family, so they are not reall a “Chain”
Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
[B]PaulLin, you should’ve met some of the old TKD masters I trained with. These were hardened fighters who’d put chokeholds and dislocations on guys in real fights. My old TKD teacher knew exactly how to hit a guy to cause deep muscle damage without leaving an external bruise or break (internal strike).
Another one (50+ years in age) I knew could break a thick board that he held in one hand with a punch from the other hand. He did this for me in a seated position SLOWLY using a corkscrew motion of the TKD jing. I never could break a board that way and probably never will.
And even some of the younger TKD cats I’ve seen are horribly tough. It’s hard to catch these guys, particularly because modern style TKD rapid fire combinations come and go so quickly. I know - I was one of them. [/B]
Of course, that sound possible form your words. However, it sounds like too rare of your case in TDK, Yet, I have heard that an old Korean told me that the TDKs are all water down now and the old traditional ones has problem to survive and pass down. Second, since there is no high CMA in your example to compare to, I would really have to see your case my self to really know what are you talking about. Yet, if there ever is any good, traditional, humble TDK existed, I wouldn’t really opposing them. But I have not seen any.
…
Royal Dragon,
Just of what I have seen, the people who were in the recreational part of CMA, mostly thought they are in the traditional part. If you told them in fornt, like the staight kind of guy you are, I doubt about how many people would actually be in that recreational program rather than in a 24 hr. fitness ctr or a TKD Kwoon.
I think KC Elbow’s idea fits my observation better, since they won’t feel like being sold an American-Chinese-food-like stuff rather than a genuin art (in mental accomplishment aspect).
And there I am heavily worrie about the watering down CMA, especially the ones that can’t continue into the traditional field. That will make the quality of general CMA unreliable.
Also, things like TDK, Karate, etc. has long been doing advaced marketing in the watering down market, I really doubt about CMA will get any good by jump into that part of marketing and try to compete in that already-not-that-much-potential-remained part.
If you serve watered down CMA as a introductory part, then the traditional parts must not be forgot, both by practioners and in the ears of the public. I would see CMA’s advantage is that we have hope to the real traditional arts, with or without the watering down introductory parts, and TDK, Karate are hopeless of getting that part. Then again, that will depends on if the most of American people must known the water downs well enough to value the traditionals. I wondered how many Americans acturally at that stage.
And what kind of high Kung Fu do you practice Paul? You and yu shan are very funny. :rolleyes:
HKV,
“Watering down of CMAs? By what standard is that? What’s better, restricting one’s student base to a select few or SPREADING IT WIDELY so that people of all walks can enjoy it? The good students rise to the top regardless, just as they do at TKD schools all over the world.”
Smart, my TKD master once remarked that it’s sad that CMA sifu are restrictive on who they teach since you never know who will be the best. He’s had students that didn’t have the stuff to be a good martial artists when they walked in the door. But during the color belt process turned things around and went on to become excellent students and instructors. He’s also had people who showed much promise who quit or stalled out during the color belt process never reaching their potential.
CMA
Originally posted by rogue
And what kind of high Kung Fu do you practice Paul? You and yu shan are very funny. :rolleyes:
I practice Yang style TaiChi, Xing-Yi, BaGua, 8 step mantis, ShuaiChaio, ShiaoLin ChinNa, White Crane, TanTui, KunLunDanTao.
As well as I think you are funny too. You might say that I haven’t seen the real TDK yet, and I will say that you don’t really know good CMA yet.
But all that will be just talking until we put them in act. I will be ready for TDK any time.
“Ready for TKD anytime?”
Unlikely.
A lot of TKD guys I know are REALLY TOUGH CATS. No matter who faces them, they’re going to do some serious damage even if they go down.
You can’t tell me, Paul Lin, that a guy like Philip Rhee (Best of the Best) wouldn’t be a frightening guy to fight. That guy could hurt ANYBODY - especially a guy who dilutes his focus by practicing as many different sets as you do. Watch that movie if you haven’t seen it - there are many guys in real life who have that kind of skill and I’ve SEEN IT with my two eyes.
Forget not that in mainland China, millions of people practice your Yang Taijiquan style - both old and traditional. I seriously doubt that most of them intend to use it for combat purposes. Do you seek to deny those folks of the benefits they derive from practice?
My suggestion: get into the ring and free-spar against a TKD stylist. THEN flame the style.
I’ve fought Tae KwonDo gus
They were always easy to take out. They don’t even cover their heads for Christ sake!!!
If your saying the high level guys are tougher, good, they should be, now lets put them against OUR high level guys. I bet you’d see the same results as my “Tineeeeeey” fights.
The only tough TKD guy “I” have ever seen, crosseed in Sheeto (sp?) Kan, and Judo.
Depends on the format.
In point sparring under their rules, they’re very tough to beat.
In full contact NHB controlled sparring, I’d probably give the nod to the kung fu guy or mixed martial artist.
In the STREET, I’d give the nod to the better fighter.
RD,
what level TKD guys did you fight? If they were black belt and above and weren’t covering then they deserved to get spanked. The name TKD can also cover a multitude of variants of Korean MA, my kwan being closer to karate then most, so you’d also have to say what style of TKD they were doing, sport, Olympic, kickboxing, “traditional”. It’s like saying I fought a Southern stylist.
PaulLin,
Are you currently studying 9 different styles or is that a list of what you’ve studyed over time? I’ll be seeing what Tai Chi is about as I’ve found someone to workout with who does TC. I’ll keep you posted. If you get to play at someones dojang tell us how you do. Also try some BJJ schools as they’re almost always willing to have a go at it. And you’re right I more than likely haven’t seen very much good CMA yet outside of a couple of Wing Chun players, but I know it’s there and I don’t underestimate them with a broad brush.
Now back to schools,
PaulLin,
What do you think makes something watered down? I’ve visited many karate(Okinawan & Japanese), TKD and BJJ schools that seemed pretty serious to me.