Why do people put so much stock in “looking like their style?” In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter? Is your victory any sweeter when you look like your style? Is your loss more honorable?
when I do a fireman’s carry, it doesn’t look like “shoot the bow” - not because I no longer train cma, but because I’m applying the technique as opposed to doing it in a form. We have counters to punches that involve stepping into a person, pulling them into you and kneeing them. I’ve seen a similar application in a mantis form that was taught at my old school - but I don’t look like that. does it matter?
It would seem to me that as long as you are applying the principles of your style, the look is superfluous.
This is where it gets tricky with some people, they feel it has to look like you do it in the form or it’s not traditional. I say other than “conditioning” why not do the form the way you would apply it? When you look at how different families do their forms they all differ and have their own flavor any ways. So then why not do the tactics in the forms like they are meant to be performed, which is actual application? This way when you use the tactics you would look like the style you practice. That’s the way our family practices our forms, it’s not all wushu and flowery. It’s direct and to the point.
By conditioning I mean for example when you punch in mantis we punch the palm of the other hand to condition that hand and the fist, or when we down chop we hit the inside of the forearm with the other palm to condition the forearm. Where as those hands would be doing a slap, block or re direct in actual application. Other than that the forms should be done in a practical manor, not for show.
“when I do a fireman’s carry, it doesn’t look like “shoot the bow” - not because I no longer train cma, but because I’m applying the technique as opposed to doing it in a form.”
I think there’s a misconception of what form training is supposed to do. In an active drill / spar, because you’re training with a skilled partner, there is less chance of completing the move as you would do in a form. You and you’re partner would most likely be stopped half way and having to branch off into another move.
Just like in boxing, each player would like to do a perfect knock out with the first punch, but the opportunity doesn’t arise that often - especially when both players are fresh off in the ring.
Originally posted by shirkers1 Holy crap we agree on something!!!
there must be a glitch in the matrix…
When you look at how different families do their forms they all differ and have their own flavor any ways.
That was going to be my next point - you beat me to it.
[b]So then why not do the tactics in the forms like they are meant to be performed, which is actual application? This way when you use the tactics you would look like the style you practice. That’s the way our family practices our forms, it’s not all wushu and flowery. It’s direct and to the point.
By conditioning I mean for example when you punch in mantis we punch the palm of the other hand to condition that hand and the fist, or when we down chop we hit the inside of the forearm with the other palm to condition the forearm. Where as those hands would be doing a slap, block or re direct in actual application. Other than that the forms should be done in a practical manor, not for show. [/B]
However, each style entails different methods, principles and body mechanics and stresses different things. They are not just different in “looks” only.
A punch for example;
Ze Zi Quan in WC.
Xing Yi punches.
Circular Tang Do punches in Tai Ji.
Throwing palms in Tong Bei.
Zwei Zuei in Liu He Mantis, etc
They are all strikes. And they differ not just in “looks”.
Because anytime a tma guy can actually show fighting competence he looks exactly like a kickboxer and not the style he practices ?
Again, a misconception based on your experience alone.
Man, you musta had a bad experience or something to let that seed grow in your mind so strong st00.
It’s too bad you don’t have access, but I guess that can be said for a lot of folks. Don’t be so narrow. There is no art that should be looked down upon. If you haven’t tasted, then you don’t know. It’s ok to say “I do not know”, in fact it is preferable in cases where you might find yourself hazarding a guess that is biased from limited experience.
Maybe it is a cultural thing or availability as pointed out.
Growing up in Taiwan, everybody knows that there are differences in fighting style or schools. Tai Ji uses different approaches from Shaolin. Mantis is famous for its hooking hand. Eagle claws are deadly pinches, iron head, iron clothes for taking hits, karate palm breaking bricks, Thai kicking shin, Moslem Ba Ji close combat and throw, Mogolian Shuai Jiao, on and on.
Not everybody knows exactly how they differ. But common people would still say there are different methods or ways of fightings.
If the food is cooked, it is cooked.
Yes, they are steamed, boiled, baked, fried, grilled, bar-be-que or —
There are sauted with spices, salt, pepper, sugar, vinegar or --.
Oh what spices? Malaysian Say tay, Indian curry (red, yellow–), Thai hot and spicy sauce, Korean Kim Ji style, Japanese terry yaki, on and on.
It’s not a matter of looking the style but rather using the style. When you fight you should be using the techniques and movements that make up your style. I mean why learn all those cool fancy moves if you don’t (or can’t) use them in a real fight?
And I agree, the forms should be more representative of actual fighting. I’m stuck in that mindset from my old Kenpo days.
Don’t know if I look like my style but sometimes the people you train under leave their imprint on you. People that know me and know the people I’ve trained under can pick that up.
Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]Again, a misconception based on your experience alone.
Man, you musta had a bad experience or something to let that seed grow in your mind so strong st00.
It’s too bad you don’t have access, but I guess that can be said for a lot of folks. Don’t be so narrow. There is no art that should be looked down upon. If you haven’t tasted, then you don’t know. It’s ok to say “I do not know”, in fact it is preferable in cases where you might find yourself hazarding a guess that is biased from limited experience. [/B]
Y’know, I think where st00 is coming from is that for sport fighting, you want to get the best and most direct to the point training to win in competition. The more years you can put in to training with direct impact on your matches, the better.
There is a LOT of training in many styles of kungfu that take a VERY long time to get good at enough to be able to use it effectively in a fight, let alone in sport fighting. And in sport fighting, youth has an edge, so packing in as much experience as possible in a short amount of time garners a distinct advantage.
So I wouldn’t say that TCMA training is ‘useless’ per se, just that there are MUCH better training methods for competitive sport fighting. There is a LOT more that TCMA has to offer outside of the ring that I feel is a LOT more valuable than straight sport competition training. But that’s because I live in an area with little crime and VERY little violence.
sportive fighting can be done in 3-6 months at a caliber one is ranked in regardless of what they train.
the very best of the best have spent many years training to be where they are.
Even in boxing this is true. and yes, competitive sport fighting is definitely the realm of teh under 40 crowd in many respects.
the 20 somethings is probably the optimum time.
However, in the great big pool of fighting fishes, still, only a few are any good really even though there are hundreds if not thousands if not hundreds of thousands swimming in that pond.
to make blanket statements such as has been made about tcma is only ignorant of tcma. But, we don’t hear it much from groups other than those with an agenda of validating their own thought on the matter.
any art or practice is worthy of undertaking in the end.
“Looking like your style” means two things to me: 1.) Your physical structure reflects your training. A BaJi guy uses what I call Slant Flying all day long, just like I do, but how it works is impacted by the particular body mechanics dictated by the style. 2.) The ai priori assumptions made by a training ‘system’ determines much of the ‘look.’ When my buddy Brian executes a throw - it looks like long fist. No question about it. There are different choices in set ups, how you stand, from where you move, how you move that give a style its ‘flavor.’ I know plenty of guys who can fight really well without ‘looking’ like kickboxing.
But - and here is why most TMA schools have lost thier right to use the term ‘martial’ - is that foorm MUST follow function. When people stop using thier skills, the meaning behind the flavor is lost, often leaving folks who swear upon moving a certain way, without ever realizng what they aren’t understanding.
Just because your teacher doesn’t focus the majority of class time on showing one how to use the style’s forms in a functional way don’t meen he/she can’t. Itmay just meen that he/she expects you to get off you bum and do it yourself… Then show them what you have learned. At this point they help you to fix it if you can’t make it work right, or they show you something new to puzle over.
How to do this, you ask??? Easy eoungh: make a point of incorporating the individual sequences from the form into your sparring moves. And really make the effort to use them, even if it don’t work the first 10 times. Once you getsomething obscure to work for you once, the next time you try something odd or obscure, you will get it faster. If you just can’t use it- and you really have tried to learn how to- shoe your teacher what you have been doing and see if maybe they can help you “fix” it. This is what teachersare for. Helping one learn, not leading one along by the nose like a cow.
The next step is to uncover the apps yourself. When I first learned Tai Ji Qi Shi and Jing Gong Dao Zuei, the teacher said there are more than 42 apps in them. I was shocked or puzzled. I then started to think or analyze the movement, steps relative to up, down, left, right, forward and backward in a circle.
Eventually, the answers were given. But after that, I still uncover more. If I think about the principles all the time, apps will show themself.
Free sparring and actually use the moves. If without a partner, I may practice the app solo with props for resistence or drill with imagination.
In the step 3, you see all the real “looks” in fight. And not the continuous or not so apparent moves in the form (Toulu).
