looking like your style

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Originally posted by Becca
[B]Just because your teacher doesn’t focus the majority of class time on showing one how to use the style’s forms in a functional way don’t meen he/she can’t. Itmay just meen that he/she expects you to get off you bum and do it yourself… Then show them what you have learned. At this point they help you to fix it if you can’t make it work right, or they show you something new to puzle over.

How to do this, you ask??? Easy eoungh: make a point of incorporating the individual sequences from the form into your sparring moves. And really make the effort to use them, even if it don’t work the first 10 times. Once you getsomething obscure to work for you once, the next time you try something odd or obscure, you will get it faster. If you just can’t use it- and you really have tried to learn how to- shoe your teacher what you have been doing and see if maybe they can help you “fix” it. This is what teachersare for. Helping one learn, not leading one along by the nose like a cow. [/B]

but what’s the point there? it hinders progress. Sticking with my shoot the bow example, we spent literally years thinking it was a punch. That made sense to us because our longfist was mainly striking influence. After I started grappling, I was doing a fireman’s carry and thought “hey, this is shoot the bow!” and when I brought it up on the forum, others agreed. Now, had I just been told that when I first started working on it, I woulda had it down a long time ago. Wouldn’t have been hard, as I love the fireman’s carry.

Then, what of the people that don’t experiment or question? they get black belts, sashes, etc. and open schools, teaching what they think they know, but they may actually be wrong. He is training people with incorrect knowledge, which is never a good thing.

22

LOL, SPJ, I’ve used the food analogy before.

It’s in the flavor of what you are looking at. The problem w/ tcma is that it doesn’t compete enough, or at all, against other styles. Or they don’t compete at all. Therefore the tcma person doesn’t have a clue about how his ‘technique’ is going to stand up to something besides his/her kung fu brother/sister.

Seven, I hear ya, but is this really a different topic than “CMA doesn’t train/compete realistically”?

I for one and still very much waiting to hear more from Coach Ross as he crosses back into tcma.

Right now, in sparring with my students, I’m only letting them utilize the most basic of mantis techniques, gou lou cai. I’m firing basic straight and hook punches at them and working with them on using gou lou cai to intercept/block/deflect the attack and counter attack with straights/hooks. They are using somewhat higher versions of the stances they train and so far are looking pretty good and, I think, still looking like mantids.

23

I actually wasn’t thinking about that debate when I made this thread. I think what sparked it was a thread on the WC forum where someone mentioned looking like their style.

24

Seven, what you experienced is a by product if the secretiveness inherent in much of CMa culture - which does result in there being an awful lot of CMA teachers who don’t know thier system teaching it. I’ve encountered this too, but a good CMA teacher often has ‘poems’ or ‘words’ that supply the theory and unlock the secrets of the system.

However, it is still better to have a teacher who can explain clearly and understands how to coach you for fighting.

25

Hurray!!! Monkey slap, couldnt have said it better. The sonnents or songs unlocks the secrets in the applications.
For those who dont know what the songs or sonents of thier system are, perhaps you should delve into that subject to help you comprehend what the originators of your style were trying to express.

The problem with most of the students in this day and age is that they dont spend enough time/years training or their training is incomplete due to either the lack of knowledge of their teachers, the impatientness of thier expectance, or the selfishness of thier teachers.

Either way one must realize that after they learn some things for a couple of years and pratice it a couple hundred times doesnt mean you can use it in combat effectivley.

The only technique you can use effectively in combat is the one you have mastered!
Now ask yourself how many techniques have I actually mastered???

26

Seven, ok, but doesn’t the basic argument run that tcma peeps aren’t any good with their techniques because they don’t train them realistically enough?

or, that the have too many different things to train that even if they are training many hours a week they can’t possibley train them all to the level needed to utilize them when the lizard brain takes over.

so, they revert to basic type attacks that are ‘styleless’ as in not having the particular flavor their style is supposed to cultivate.

27

For a long while my fighting tended to revert to basic kickboxing whenever I fought. Now I only have that problem when I have to wear boxing gloves. You see, about three months ago I hit a breakthrough and bits of taiji and the animal forms with which I am most familiar (tiger, snake, dragon to a lesser extent) started slipping into my bare-hand free sparring. Now I can strike with a spearhand with greater accuracy than I ever could with a fist and about the same power. I find that rather than defaulting to a boxing-style guard, I tend to hold my hands further from my body and am more successful at diverting enemy attacks. My fighting began to look more and more like the forms I was taught and I was getting better. :smiley:

28

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]but what’s the point there? it hinders progress. Sticking with my shoot the bow example, we spent literally years thinking it was a punch. That made sense to us because our longfist was mainly striking influence. After I started grappling, I was doing a fireman’s carry and thought “hey, this is shoot the bow!” and when I brought it up on the forum, others agreed. Now, had I just been told that when I first started working on it, I woulda had it down a long time ago. Wouldn’t have been hard, as I love the fireman’s carry.

[/B]
Do you remember that nice bit of advice you gave me several months ago about how to use shadow boxing to cultivate power and energy in my technique? The answer to this question also lies in that direction, at least as far as how to look like you style while sparring.

The shadow boxing recomendation did two things for me. One, it helped me cultivate the power and energy my kung fu lacked. Two, I noticed, as I improved, that I had two distinctly different sparring styles. I had never noticed while actually sparring, but Stepping back and watching myself made it very clear. Sometimes I looked very much like my sifus’ sparring style, other times I looked more like a MMA peep.

Why? I’d scrapped everything I had learned in 8 years of ninjitsu because “it wasn’t a stand-up art” and Pai Lum is. So what worked for one wouldn’t work for the other, right?

Wrong. Any common japanese-style setup for an armbar/throw, in and of itself, looks nothing like any chinese crane technique, but guess what? Look at the hand positioning, the need for gental flow then sudden yet smooth execution and solid rooting. One is grappling, the other is not. They don’tevenlookmuch alike. But the skills needed for either are exactly the same.

So to sum it up, your shooting bow was a punch. but it was not only a punch. You might have progressed faster had someone pointed this out to you. But the point of a teacher is to help you learn, to guid you down the path. Not to open your head and pour the knowledge in like soup.:wink:

Another point to ponder: If it was a punch in long fist and part of a fireman’s carry in another, which is wrong? Or are both right, just different?

29

You know, cheesy or not the karate kid movie taught the most common lesson learned by a student. It was miyagi who knew to keep it simple as not to confuse his student with info that he at the time did not need to know. It is one of the most overlooked lessons in martial arts. Be patient it will come.

30

ultimately I don’t think it matters in a life or death situation, but the point is that you choose a style because you like it’s approach right? If you can’t watch a person fight, and determine what he’s doing, he probably isn’t doing it “right”. Does this matter much? It depends on what your ideals are. If no matter what he lookes like, he can win his fight, it certainly doesn’t matter form that perspective.

“Looking” like your style is sort of s implification of the ideal that your trying to transfer the techniques of your style to the real world. If your doing them “properly” then your style wil show through.

31

Originally posted by Oso
[B]Seven, ok, but doesn’t the basic argument run that tcma peeps aren’t any good with their techniques because they don’t train them realistically enough?

or, that the have too many different things to train that even if they are training many hours a week they can’t possibley train them all to the level needed to utilize them when the lizard brain takes over.[/b]

yeah, generally.

so, they revert to basic type attacks that are ‘styleless’ as in not having the particular flavor their style is supposed to cultivate.

I see what you’re saying, but that’s not where I’m going. You train mantis. Now, let’s say I start training with you. I use your styles principles, but I apply them with my thai boxing techniques. Would it matter? If so, why?

32

Originally posted by Becca
[B]Do you remember that nice bit of advice you gave me several months ago about how to use shadow boxing to cultivate power and energy in my technique? The answer to this question also lies in that direction, at least as far as how to look like you style while sparring.

The shadow boxing recomendation did two things for me. One, it helped me cultivate the power and energy my kung fu lacked. Two, I noticed, as I improved, that I had two distinctly different sparring styles. I had never noticed while actually sparring, but Stepping back and watching myself made it very clear. Sometimes I looked very much like my sifus’ sparring style, other times I looked more like a MMA peep.

Why? I’d scrapped everything I had learned in 8 years of ninjitsu because “it wasn’t a stand-up art” and Pai Lum is. So what worked for one wouldn’t work for the other, right?

Wrong. Any common japanese-style setup for an armbar/throw, in and of itself, looks nothing like any chinese crane technique, but guess what? Look at the hand positioning, the need for gental flow then sudden yet smooth execution and solid rooting. One is grappling, the other is not. They don’tevenlookmuch alike. But the skills needed for either are exactly the same.

So to sum it up, your shooting bow was a punch. but it was not only a punch. You might have progressed faster had someone pointed this out to you. But the point of a teacher is to help you learn, to guid you down the path. Not to open your head and pour the knowledge in like soup.:wink:

Another point to ponder: If it was a punch in long fist and part of a fireman’s carry in another, which is wrong? Or are both right, just different? [/B]

thanks!

33

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
[BBut - and here is why most TMA schools have lost thier right to use the term ‘martial’ - is that foorm MUST follow function. When people stop using thier skills, the meaning behind the flavor is lost, often leaving folks who swear upon moving a certain way, without ever realizng what they aren’t understanding. [/B]

wt!!???

I 've got to stop you right there. to say such thing is to not understand tma nor what’s on offer comparatively and nitty gritty from both . I think you missed something… large! where are your tma refs comming from anyway???

34

BL, quit while you’re ahead and let ego post…

His “cma refs” come from a host of sources, one of whom was a direct student of chang tung sheng…

35

lol at blooming lotus questioning MST’s TMA credentials.

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redefine function and stop calling me that

37

If ego is indeed blooming lotus why did you change your name?

LOL you remind me of that other troller… rogue I think his name was But I might be wrong, if so I aplogize.
You couldnt make a statment or say anything without this guy shooting it down, arguing or making a complete ass of himself even when he was totally wrong… anyways

I have read many posts you have made ego and while a some spoke of knowledge, sense and wisdom most did not. I have also read many of monkey slap’s posts all of which are filled with knowledge, sense and wisdom.

I once had someone out of ignorance and jealousy tell me I must have had a crappy know nothing teacher… then I told him yea your right his name is Shyun kwan long the (jewel of china) and his tune changed immediatly. so never assume who is who on this board.

38

Originally posted by EarthDragon
If ego is indeed blooming lotus why did you change your name?

Blooming Lotus is just using Ego’s account to post on. You can somewhat tell which person is posting by the difference in grammar, sometimes content, and by checking the time of the post. Clusters of posts in a similiar time period that have similiar grammatical ‘flair’ shall we say identify each personality.

39

fngsai,
OK am I missing something? Is blooming hiding his idenity for a reason?
I know no one liked the guy but to log on as a different user? wow that’s pathetic.

40

yes it matters. why would you train in a style you dont use in a fight?