I thought this thread was about leung bik? Almost the entire second page is devoted to William Cheung.
“Leung Bik lived with Ip Man for five years and learned the entire system of Wing Chun. Through out his life, Ip Man referred to Leung Bik as Si Pak. …
…Let us continue our presumption that Leung Jan did have a younger son named Leung Bik, who moved to Hong Kong, and encountered, then taught for 4 years a young Yip Man.”
I am a bit confused here. Are you saying it was 5 years or 4 years?
According to TWC history, Leung Bik taught Yip Man the traditional Wing Chun system, as opposed to the modified version which his father taught Chan Wah Shun.
Actually that isn’t exactly correct IMO. It isn’t the contention that that he taught one opposed to the other. It is the contention that one was taught in ADDITION to the other. If you look at TWC there is many things the same as other lineages, however there is also significant extras.
If there were no OTHER students in Leung Jan’s school, that also implies then that there were only 4 people doing Wing Chun in the world.
again I have to disagree as there were other lineages. From Leung Jan to yip man it was limited. Don’t forget WC was relatively unknown (outside of asia) until Yip Man and his decendents came along, there wasn’t schools with thousands of students as there is now. Did leung jan even have a ‘school’?
If it was Leung Jan’s intention to not teach outside his family, why then did he teach Wing Chun when he retired to Koo Lo?
Well we know he did teach outside of his family as there was Chan Wah Shun, however that was because it was inevitable as Chan Wah Shun ‘caught’ them training (if we believe that story).
If he ‘retired’ wouldn’t that imply that he wasn’t teaching anymore?
If the Leung family tradition is to only teach family member the complete system, then that would imply that if Leung Jan’s great grandson does his family’s Wing Chun, then he too would have the secret traditional version.
Could be. He would have also had to have learned from his father, who would have learned from either Leung Bik or his brother.
If there is only one traditional Wing Chun system and all others are modified, then what about the other lineages of Wing Chun?
Well first of all because of evolution ALL wc is modified even TWC. before everyone gets upset about this statement I say that as it is evolution. I mean look at boxers from the 60’s to now. The sport, the techniques etc have changed dramatically in the last 40 years…it is evolution.
Secondly, I have heard that there is a system emerging from the woodwork called HFY which is considerably similar to TWC. As I said I have only heard about it and am not really familiar with it. Is there any HFY people here that could talk about the lineage to see if it goes back pre- Leung Jan. As if it does it would show that there is other lineages that have both styles of WC in their history.
Chan Wah Shun aka Jiao Chin Wah
Lo Kwai aka Chu Yuk Kwai
Leung Kei aka Lau Man Kei
Where did you get this info from? Is it confirmed that they were students? Where are their decendants now? Just asking to get a full perspective of what you are saying.
Originally posted by WCis4me
[B] Leung Bik lived with Ip Man for five years and learned the entire system of Wing Chun. Through out his life, Ip Man referred to Leung Bik as Si Pak. …
…Let us continue our presumption that Leung Jan did have a younger son named Leung Bik, who moved to Hong Kong, and encountered, then taught for 4 years a young Yip Man."
I am a bit confused here. Are you saying it was 5 years or 4 years?
[/B]
Planet Wing Chun is not saying it. The quote was from the Ron Heimberger article Yip Man and Leung Bik The article has a couple of problems. From the above it sounds as if Leung Bik moved in with Yip Man, not the other way around. Possible, I guess, but then the article confuses St. Francis (whatever that is) with Yip Man’s purported high school, St. Stephen’s College, so the article is sloppy to the point of being dubious in its content and accuracy.
From a descendant of Chan Wah Shun in Shunde.
Rene Ritchie can probably provide other sources for this information as well.
http://www.wengchunsanjoang.com/hist.html
Originally posted by WCis4me
[B]
Chan Wah Shun aka Jiao Chin Wah
Lo Kwai aka Chu Yuk Kwai
Leung Kei aka Lau Man Kei
Where did you get this info from? Is it confirmed that they were students? Where are their decendants now? Just asking to get a full perspective of what you are saying. [/B]
Wing Chun was not Dr Leung Jan’s primary profession.
He was a herbal doctor. His pharmacy, Jan San Tong, was located on “chopsticks street” in Foshan. He retired and closed his shop in Foshan and moved to Koo Lo village.
There were other students of Chan Wah Shun such as Ng Chun So (Yip Man’s si-hing, and probable primary teacher given Chan Wah Shun’s extreme age at the time.).
The existence of other lineages of Wing Chun Kuen other than Yip Man was fairly unknown outside of mainland China until the mid nineties or so.
Originally posted by WCis4me
[B]
From Leung Jan to yip man it was limited. Don’t forget WC was relatively unknown (outside of asia) until Yip Man and his decendents came along, there wasn’t schools with thousands of students as there is now. Did leung jan even have a ‘school’?
Well we know he did teach outside of his family as there was Chan Wah Shun, however that was because it was inevitable as Chan Wah Shun ‘caught’ them training (if we believe that story).
If he ‘retired’ wouldn’t that imply that he wasn’t teaching anymore?
[/B]
Hi Planetwc,
Thanks for the link. Interesting site. Do you know why is it called ‘weng’ chun?
It talks about the existence of Leung Bik as well, despite not being a descendent line from Yip Man. That infers that perhaps the story started at least as far back as Chan Wah Shun as two different student lines (yip man and chan wah shun’s son) talk about Leung Bik.
Regards,
Vicky
Re: Re: Re: Old Footage
Indeed Phil. The more important thing here is, combat effectiveness not marketing. Cheung Sifu has left a long legacy in terms of students and schools to be proud of, without ANY need for the Leung Bik<->Yip Man secrets story.
My sense was that William Cheung had pretty much “retired” the whole traditional vs modified marketing, as his large worldwide following and success as a teacher should speak for itself.
In the light of the new millenium, when we are now more aware of more details of Wing Chun, it’s depth and breath that some things in terms of the history and marketing can be questioned.
Each lineage practices what it believes to be an effective combat system. Each has it’s own interpretation of principles and tactics.
When we can strip away the marketing fluff, that is meant to draw in the unwashed newbies, we can get down to the real business of Wing Chun Kuen. What works, what doesn’t. What you have to train and sweat for, taste bitter to achieve.
I just don’t like the marketing stuff, which doesn’t seem logical or still valid in the light of today’s knowledge. Many have this kind of spin, and in some respects it may be necessary to promote the scale of student population being sought after.
One can kick a$$ because you train hard with a great teacher and have the skill to implement theory and execute in the chaos of combat, not because some guy taught someone else by the light of the moon 150 years ago.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
[B]
I’ve been saying this for years. If he DID invent TWC then the man is a genius. My point regarding the lost footage is why would he go to his seniors to show them something he made up? He told them that he learned this way from Yip Man. In the end it doesn’t matter to me where it came from. It works and I train for the combat aspects.
Phil [/B]
According to the story, Chan Wah-Shun’s son (Yip Man’s sihing), Chan Yiu-Min used the character Weng for his art, and argued with his sihingdai that this was, in fact, the correct character to use. Descendants of Chan Yiu-Min, such as Pang Nam via Jiu Chow (Jiu Wan’s uncle) also use this character.
David is correct in that Leung Jan taught out of Apothecary shop. There were 2 major kinds of MA at the time, private (taught to more gentlemanly, upper class individuals, usually quite expensive, out of a house or family estate or the like) and public (taught to anyone who joins, usually workers or farmers, etc. sometimes out of a public gym, not that expensive). WCK was of the former. It’s said when Leung Jan retired, Chan Wah-Shun took over his classes, teaching where he could (eventually ending up in the Yip family temple).
Leung Bik is mentioned in most stories, even in China, though his knowledge of WCK, if any, varies greatly from being a regular student to not learning anything of relevance.
Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]According to the story, Chan Wah-Shun’s son (Yip Man’s sihing), Chan Yiu-Min used the character Weng for his art, and argued with his sihingdai that this was, in fact, the correct character to use. Descendants of Chan Yiu-Min, such as Pang Nam via Jiu Chow (Jiu Wan’s uncle) also use this character.
David is correct in that Leung Jan taught out of Apothecary shop. There were 2 major kinds of MA at the time, private (taught to more gentlemanly, upper class individuals, usually quite expensive, out of a house or family estate or the like) and public (taught to anyone who joins, usually workers or farmers, etc. sometimes out of a public gym, not that expensive). WCK was of the former. It’s said when Leung Jan retired, Chan Wah-Shun took over his classes, teaching where he could (eventually ending up in the Yip family temple).
Leung Bik is mentioned in most stories, even in China, though his knowledge of WCK, if any, varies greatly from being a regular student to not learning anything of relevance. [/B]
Thanks Rene.
Is there a significant difference in what the characters mean? Do you know why he argued why it was the right way? I am curious as to why two sets of people would feel so strongly about which character was proper and why they felt that way.
Ok, if leung Jan retired and Chan Wah-Shun took over, I am a bit confused as to where it comes in (what planetwc was describing) that Leung Jan taught after this time in Koo lo village?
Hi Vicki,
Weng means perpetual, et: water flowing beneath the earth. Wing means chant, sing, et: words issuing from the mouth like water flowing beneath the earth.
Back then, literacy was very low in China, and the two characters sound almost identical (Phil can pronounce them for you and if you can easily tell them apart, Randy Jackson from American Idol will love your pitch!). In legend, Weng Chun signified what Jee Shim taught the Red Junk performers, while Wing Chun signified what Leung Bok-Chow (Yim Wing-Chun’s husband) taught them. Nowadays, it’s usually used to distinguish Dai Fa Min Kam’s teachings from Wong Wah-Bo’s (though Yik Kam uses Wing as well).
Here’s the chronology:
Leung Jan retired and sold his apothecary shop in Foshan (Faatshan, where he’d been teaching). Chan Wah-Shun took over the class and Leung Jan moved back to his native village of Gulao (Koo Lo). In Gulao, he taught 4 more students, his 2 nephews (including Leung Bak-Cheung) as well as Wong Wah-Sum and Yik Ying.
reneritchie,
A slight addition:
Ving v.
-
to sing
-
to express in verses, to versify
-
to versify historical events
-
to exalt, to praise, to glorify: “ving moy” to exalt the plum tree
-
to twitter, to chirp
-
(archaic) to whisper romantic overtures
-
n: a style of poetic composition
-
a: (archaic) beauty.
Tsun n.
- the first of the four seasons in the lunar calendar, springtime
- year, age, era
- (archaic) chronological age
- the east, oriental
- (archaic) wine
- pornography
- life, vitality (archaic: semen)
- loving feeling between man and woman
In addition to it being a semantic modifier to “Yin”, the “Weng” is also a phonetic indicator. According to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in archaic form, there was no difference between the pronunciation of “Wing” vs. “Weng” other than from regional dialects. Also, to refer to underground aquifer in archaic form, a different ideogram was used. It is the same ideogram as the modern ideogram for “fountain” and is also pronounced “Wing/Weng.”
The true meaning of “Ving” requires a context. (Amusing if you consider there is a perfectly correct, not uncommon, and non-martial context in Cantonese to use the ideograms for “Ving Tsun” with the #6 definition for “Ving” and the #6 definition for “Tsun” 
)
To hear the songs of springtime is to recognize its beauty. Hence: Ving Tsun = “beautiful springtime.” However, if it is to refer to a young woman to whom we give credit for the art, then it’s just her familiar name and any other attempts to interpret it differently are just a way to have a conversation with her. 
“I don’t know much English. This word, I happen to know.” – Moy Yat.
Thanks Tom,
There are also regional/periodic slang meanings, like Chun meaning “wine” during the Tang dynasty, or “play” in Shanghai during th Qing. A rich language to be sure.
Since I speak Cantonese I’d like to clarify for those who aren’t aware, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun are both pronounced, “Wing Chun” in Cantonese.
Phil
Leung Jan closed his apothecary shop in Foshan and retired to Koo Lo village (he retired from his primary business), where he continued to teach Wing Chun, but using a different approach (San Sik).
Chan Wah Shun took over teaching Wing Chun of the Leung Jan lineage in Foshan. Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo village until his death there.
Yip Man started with Chan Wah Shun as a teacher in Foshan, however, Chan was VERY old and died about 2 years I think into accepting Yip Man as a student (Chan Wah Shun had others as pupils including his own son). Therefore one of Chan Wah Shun’s senior disciples Ng Chun So took on responsiblity for teaching Yip Man in Foshan.
Originally posted by WCis4me
[B]
Ok, if leung Jan retired and Chan Wah-Shun took over, I am a bit confused as to where it comes in (what planetwc was describing) that Leung Jan taught after this time in Koo lo village? [/B]
Thanks, Rene, Tom and David for the informative responses.
Rene,
I did ask Phil to pronounce it and I see what you mean now. Thanks again,
Vicky
Chan Wah-Shun sifu also had a stroke a year or so before his death which left him with greatly reduced capacity. He retired back to his home village in Shunde (Sam Dak) shortly thereafter, where he passed away (and where his great grandchildren still teach WCK and their family village boxing). Chan Yiu-Min took over his public classes, Ng Jung-So, and Lui Yiu-Chai (before he moved to Vietnam) his private ones. It was a turbulant time in China, however, and most of Yip Man’s sihing, lacking the personal wealth Yip Man had prior to the Japanese occupation, left WCK to work for survival or moved to other places, like South East Asia, to seek their fortunes.
On another note: One of the core ingredients that IMHO many of these stories fail to take into account is the hard work and insight Yip Man had into WCK. Sifu, sihing aside, before he began teaching he had decades of personal time to reach a rather profound understanding of the art, and the simple, brutally effective art he taught in HK, IMHO, depended not so much on one storied connection or another, but on his own kung-fu.
leurng bik russellsherry
hi guys i arggree with david williams, for once if chan wah soon knew the guy was spying on him you one close the window from whence he was looking into , two the easy way to stuff his training would, be not show him chi sau the thing that make us driffrent from anybodu else, by the way phil a former senor of mine, has sifu william cheung, doing the hk forms on super 8 at a footsgrey market demo sifu cheung ppole form wasnot the one you guys do, just a question? no disrespect meant why did sifu cheung not teach in australia unti l master yip man died peace russellsherry
Hi Rene,
depended not so much on one storied connection or another, but on his own kung-fu.
Very good point IMO.
However, there is lots of chatter about him being a fairly good fighter early on, being a master of WC early on. Some of it says that directly after he studied under Leung Bik he was able to defeat his seniors under Chan Wah Shun. That would mean he was very well versed in understanding the finer points of what Leung Bik taught him even before those decades of refining.
It is curious that there is not much talk in what I have seen from various sources so far, about those decades in between. It is all very general 'he learnt from Leung Bik where he mastered Wing Chun, then returned to Fatshan where he defeated his seniors (on some accounts), then after doing some police work and raising a family, fled to HK.
Is there more detail on what happened during that 30+ years that you know of?
Vicky
To play devils advocate.
It is said that all WC coming from Wong Wah Bo is the same. However didnt Leung Jan have 2 teachers. He could have learned a different version of WC from Leung Yee Tai.
Yip Mans early HK students WC looks like that of Foshan his later HK WC looks a little different. Perhaps as he was more established he felt comfortable incorporating WC from a source other than Chan Wah .
If you look at Yip Mans weapons forms ,the body structure, engagement ideas, and footwork you see many things that appear in TWC.
It is known that Yip Man knew many different WC people, perhaps as he got older he combined all his knowledge or taught different students different aspects depending upon their needs.
Yip Chun has been quoted as saying his father said that according to Leung Bik one of Leung Jans goals was to find a simpler way to convey WC and that Leung jan spent his life trying to do so. Isnt Koo Lo WC living proof of this?
Just some thoughts.
for once if chan wah soon knew the guy was spying on him you one close the window from whence he was looking into ,
The story is that Chan Wah Shun was spying on Leung Jan teaching and not that people were spying on Chan Wah Shun. Also I think they were out in the grounds, not in the house. It also talks about that Leung Jan wasn’t sure how much Chan Wah Shun had seen or grasped the concept of or even how long he had been watching for. Could have been a minute could have been a year, who knows. But the story that I read seems to infer that when Leung Jan agreed to teach Chan Wah Shun, as he knew he saw something, he soon realized that Chan Wah Shun did not grasp some concepts and therefore Leung Jan didn’t go further into them with Chan Wah Shun.
Again, who knows, that is just how the story goes that I read and quoted.