Kwan Sau

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

Although I come from a different branch of Yip Man’s VT, I have to agree completely. My old sifu, Leung Ting, also performed the opening movements of SNT and Chum Kiu, that is to say the crossed gaun-sau and crossed tan-sau, with an inside roll, and he specifically noted that this was training for the kwun-sau movement, even though it has a different appearance. Now I am associated with a different group, but we still view these movements this way.

So why introduce an action like Kwan Sau right at the start of the system before even the basic punch has been looked at??? So to justfy this BS you say that it has a different appearance???:confused::confused::confused::eek:

Why do you train for Kwan Sau at the start of SLT and CK. What makes Kwan Sau so special??? The student hasnt even been introduced to one handed actions nevermind two at the start of SLT.

Ving Tsun is a logical system. Your idea is not!!!

I’m looking forward to the reasons why you generic) think that!!

GH

62

[QUOTE=Graham H;1112181]So why introduce an action like Kwan Sau right at the start of the system before even the basic punch has been looked at??? So to justfy this BS you say that it has a different appearance???:confused::confused::confused::eek:

Why do you train for Kwan Sau at the start of SLT and CK. What makes Kwan Sau so special??? The student hasnt even been introduced to one handed actions nevermind two at the start of SLT.

Ving Tsun is a logical system. Your idea is not!!!

I’m looking forward to the reasons why you generic) think that!!

GH[/QUOTE]

Because there’s two main functions in WC. Rolling, whenever you’re switching between arms, you’re rolling in some way, and your triangle. Despite popular belief you’re not just learning one arm hand movements in SLT. Your resting arm is just as important. If you don’t have proper tension/forward intent, your extended arm will lack strength in body unity. Essentially, no triangle will be developed…

63

[QUOTE=WC1277;1112266]Because there’s two main functions in WC. Rolling, whenever you’re switching between arms, you’re rolling in some way, and your triangle. Despite popular belief you’re not just learning one arm hand movements in SLT. Your resting arm is just as important. If you don’t have proper tension/forward intent, your extended arm will lack strength in body unity. Essentially, no triangle will be developed…[/QUOTE]

Ok so we practice two totally different methods of Ving Tsun. I can’t comment on your way apart from I don’t agree with your rolling idea. Rolling in Ving Tsun is a training exercise not a fighting application. Forward intent comes from your whole body and the idea of intercepting and attacking your opponents attack. This doesn’t come from arm contact but rather a certain skill that the system teaches you.

If I had the choice of your Ving Tsun or no Ving Tsun at all I would happily wave goodbye. :wink:

GH

64

[QUOTE=Graham H;1112326]Ok so we practice two totally different methods of Ving Tsun. I can’t comment on your way apart from I don’t agree with your rolling idea. Rolling in Ving Tsun is a training exercise not a fighting application. Forward intent comes from your whole body and the idea of intercepting and attacking your opponents attack. This doesn’t come from arm contact but rather a certain skill that the system teaches you.

If I had the choice of your Ving Tsun or no Ving Tsun at all I would happily wave goodbye. :wink:

GH[/QUOTE]

Are you guys not rolling in some way in the over abundance of lop sau you see in almost every PB related clip?

Forward intent comes from your elbows which yes, are attached to your body…I don’t know why you keep thinking it’s all about the arms with us other than choice of language…

65

[QUOTE=WC1277;1112352]Are you guys not rolling in some way in the over abundance of lop sau you see in almost every PB related clip?

Forward intent comes from your elbows which yes, are attached to your body…I don’t know why you keep thinking it’s all about the arms with us other than choice of language…[/QUOTE]

Totally different methods…lets leave it at that.

66

[QUOTE=Graham H;1112066]Ha! You may have misunderstood my post mate!!! LOL

Of course our crossing action is before the punch but its not kwan sau or gaan sau![/QUOTE]

That’s all cool G. But what do you call this double handed posture then? Have you even got a name for it in PBVT?

I can understand why people relate it to kwan, and know ‘when’ it becomes kwan, but ultimately to me it will always simply be gaansau toiwan - cultivating arm to push and encircle. You will also see this method as the basis for all ‘taichi’ pushing hands, but you must know this already right?? You’ve researched other CMA systems?

Now I’m not saying that any students would have been told that in their early training. They’re simply crossing arms to identify their centre line, and there is nothing wrong in that. What I’m talking of is sharing ideas as a student progresses and my suggestion to you is to look seriously at how PB learnt from WSL.

PB may never have been told anything like this if he hadn’t progressed in a way WSL wanted. This happened in the Lee Shing family too. Many students passed through LS without even seeing the 1st form, let alone understanding the meaning of specific terms and, what I like to call, ‘signature’ postures of Wing Chun. My Sifu was a lucky one, and I consider myself to be lucky too because this stuff is WC101 basic understanding. You must see that, no?

67

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1112519]Now I’m not saying that any students would have been told that in their early training. They’re simply crossing arms to identify their centre line, and there is nothing wrong in that.[/QUOTE]It also the limit of depth/range of the gaan/tan away from the body.

68

That’s all cool G. But what do you call this double handed posture then? Have you even got a name for it in PBVT?

Does it matter what I call it? It’s the concept behind it that is important! It’s not an application but rather something for the new beginner to start thinking about with reference to the fixed elbow position and the behaiour of the ving tsun punch. SLT = small idea. There is nothing small about anything I have read yet. Its all a mish mash of BS!!! All of the actions in SLT are there to correct problems and address mistakes that we are prone to making. These errors need to be ironed out so that Chum Kiu can function properly. The crossing action is fundamentally about the controlling of the elbow as it is everywhere else in the forms. When a person with no prior knowledge views these movements without any prior knowledge of how and why we can turn them into anything we want!!!

I can understand why people relate it to kwan, and know ‘when’ it becomes kwan, but ultimately to me it will always simply be gaansau toiwan - cultivating arm to push and encircle. You will also see this method as the basis for all ‘taichi’ pushing hands, but you must know this already right?? You’ve researched other CMA systems?

Ving Tsun is not Tai chi!!! I can’t stand those that try and combine the two!!!

Now I’m not saying that any students would have been told that in their early training. They’re simply crossing arms to identify their centre line, and there is nothing wrong in that.

In a round about way I agree with that statement!

What I’m talking of is sharing ideas as a student progresses and my suggestion to you is to look seriously at how PB learnt from WSL.

I have no worries about how much information was shared between PB and WSL. In fact PB is one of a very few of his students that shared his thinking and that comes from WSL’s own family and friends. Get over it!!

PB may never have been told anything like this if he hadn’t progressed in a way WSL wanted.

Grab those straws mate!!! You’l have nothing left to hang onto soon!!!

This happened in the Lee Shing family too. Many students passed through LS without even seeing the 1st form, let alone understanding the meaning of specific terms and, what I like to call, ‘signature’ postures of Wing Chun. My Sifu was a lucky one, and I consider myself to be lucky too because this stuff is WC101 basic understanding. You must see that, no?

I will tell you this Spencer…I have seen your Sifu move. I have seen other students of Lee Shing and I have watched your videos and ideas and I do not consider any of you to be lucky.

I’d like to bow out of this thread now because I’m actually getting annoyed with your WC101 nonsense!!

Take care petal!! xxx

GH

69

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1112519]That’s all cool G. But what do you call this double handed posture then? Have you even got a name for it in PBVT?

I can understand why people relate it to kwan, and know ‘when’ it becomes kwan, but ultimately to me it will always simply be gaansau toiwan - cultivating arm to push and encircle. You will also see this method as the basis for all ‘taichi’ pushing hands, but you must know this already right?? You’ve researched other CMA systems?

Now I’m not saying that any students would have been told that in their early training. They’re simply crossing arms to identify their centre line, and there is nothing wrong in that. What I’m talking of is sharing ideas as a student progresses and my suggestion to you is to look seriously at how PB learnt from WSL.

PB may never have been told anything like this if he hadn’t progressed in a way WSL wanted. This happened in the Lee Shing family too. Many students passed through LS without even seeing the 1st form, let alone understanding the meaning of specific terms and, what I like to call, ‘signature’ postures of Wing Chun. My Sifu was a lucky one, and I consider myself to be lucky too because this stuff is WC101 basic understanding. You must see that, no?[/QUOTE]

Its not just ‘identifying’ the line , its what we fight on, an idea based on interception along an impenetrable line.

Constantly attacking , an ability to make attacks with every move striking with individual arms, arms together, arms legs.

70

[QUOTE=Graham H;1112526]I will tell you this Spencer…I have seen your Sifu move. I have seen other students of Lee Shing and I have watched your videos and ideas and I do not consider any of you to be lucky.

I’d like to bow out of this thread now because I’m actually getting annoyed with your WC101 nonsense!![/QUOTE]

I too have seen your Sifu, and his Sifu and as much as I respect the elders of Wing Chun there is something fundamentally wrong in your attitude towards change. Towards learning from others. Even towards simple exchange!

You can watch all you like, but if you haven’t visited my Sifu or me to chat or train then you know nothing. Just as you say I know nothing about you or PB.

Best to leave it there then mate and good luck to you :slight_smile:

Here’s a picture for you to look at, but don’t tell me, you know exactly what’s being trained here don’t you? And let me guess, to you it’s not VT!!

71

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1112544]Its not just ‘identifying’ the line , its what we fight on, an idea based on interception along an impenetrable line.

Constantly attacking , an ability to make attacks with every move striking with individual arms, arms together, arms legs.[/QUOTE]

I think I finally understand what you PB boys mean by using one arm instead of two and get ready for this, I actually agree!

Like I said before, it’s choice of language that’s causing this conflict. Different names for the same thing… we just look at it as two arms simply because the rear arm strengthens the front making the triangle. Going off the center = bad/chasing. Ok to open up opponent by angling without moving forward arm off center = structure moving = reliance on triangle and not arm technique alone…

72

[QUOTE=WC1277;1112589]I think I finally understand what you PB boys mean by using one arm instead of two and get ready for this, I actually agree!

Like I said before, it’s choice of language that’s causing this conflict. Different names for the same thing… we just look at it as two arms simply because the rear arm strengthens the front making the triangle. Going off the center = bad/chasing. Ok to open up opponent by angling without moving forward arm off center = structure moving = reliance on triangle and not arm technique alone…[/QUOTE]

For instance, someone comes in with a palm. You jaam with it directly on your center and move your structure to take the line and then chop. This makes it one movement. If you were to jut you would be doing two movements regardless of moving your structure or not.

By always just setting up your attack on the line your structure will cover the line for you. No chasing. You’re essentially using one arm that way. Doesn’t mean you can’t use the rear arm though and switch along the same line. That’s not chasing either. For instance jaam on the line again but instead of chopping directly out, your rear hand shoots out on the same line. Both are right.

73

Here’s a picture for you to look at, but don’t tell me, you know exactly what’s being trained here don’t you? And let me guess, to you it’s not VT!!

Blah, blah, blah!!! Viewing pictures is a pointless!!! Post a video of the drill and explain your thinking and I will give you opinion!

GH

74

[QUOTE=WC1277;1112628]For instance, someone comes in with a palm. You jaam with it directly on your center and move your structure to take the line and then chop. This makes it one movement. If you were to jut you would be doing two movements regardless of moving your structure or not.

By always just setting up your attack on the line your structure will cover the line for you. No chasing. You’re essentially using one arm that way. Doesn’t mean you can’t use the rear arm though and switch along the same line. That’s not chasing either. For instance jaam on the line again but instead of chopping directly out, your rear hand shoots out on the same line. Both are right.[/QUOTE]

In fact, now that I think about it, that’s exactly the dynamics of kwan sau. Unified switching using structure.

75

[QUOTE=Graham H;1112640]Blah, blah, blah!!! Viewing pictures is a pointless!!! Post a video of the drill and explain your thinking and I will give you opinion[/QUOTE]

Really? What’s the point in that?? You’re not interested and you’ve made that pretty clear.

You also can’t name the posture or even say if you’ve seen it before or not in your own VT, so have a nice flowery day yourself sir! :wink:

76

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1112649]Really? What’s the point in that?? You’re not interested and you’ve made that pretty clear.
[/QUOTE]

good point!!!

77

Kwan Sau

[QUOTE=Jon_Ray_Brooks;1111441]Kwan sau has puzzled me for some time. It’s a name we have for a combination of hands that already have names and I felt like I must be missing something. Maybe a year ago I connected with kwan sau as a a "tying/untying hand from within a bridged position. Recently I started thinking about the elbows in the opening of biu gee as an expression of kwan sau as well.

At the moment I’m contemplating 2 different expressions of kwan sau, one from chum kiu and one from biu gee, the difference being “rolling” vs some emphasis on an elbow strike. I’m interested in feedback and reaction from some of you more senior to me in that train of thought.

No trolls please. If you’re not into wing chun, that’s cool, please walk away from this thread and let us have our discussion.[/QUOTE]

Jon_Ray_Brooks , youknowwho is right kwan sau is a combination of tan sao and bong sao combined together . It comes from the bil jee form , you can use kwan sao to block a right or left high kick comming to the head area . While you counter with a low kick to the attackers’ supporting leg . It ’ s a very useful block to me because it protects the body from an attack like a right round house comming to your head area , This type of block can be used on both sides of the body . You can use the kwan sao to block an attack like a right straight punch aiming to the head area and a low attack aimed with the low left punch going to the low area of the body like an uppercut or an left reverse punch . Once you use kwan sao to block block both punches you use trapping hands to tie up your attackers’ hands . so that he can ’ t retaliate against you .

And it all depends on your training in WC if the Sifu feels that you ’ re ready to learn chi sao then why not , you ’ ll benefit from it . Chi sao builds up the power in your legs and arms as you practice the exercises . We ’ re talking about internal power now . Also a way to allow both your arms and hands to work independently against the opponent ’ s attacking hands . You can use your own legs to jam the opponents’ legs . Because , you won ’ t be doing chi sao forever ,when you have the chance you ’ ll interrupt that roll and move into your opponent .

78

Caution: Arms against legs involve good timing. A good kick can break arms.
There are other alternatives.

joy chaudhuri

79

Often we see moves being invented to accomodate misunderstood hand actions. Like trying to make the dummy 1:1 application, with overturned stances, due to the idea that the dummy is man we move around.
Set pieces for “if a guy kicks this way…we block etc…”.
Or if guy punches like this just stand and block like statue…
A lot of set pieces require the attacker to not follow up with takedowns, shoots. This leaves the set piece merchant vulnerable to feints, set ups, instead of ‘fighting’, with mobilty, distance control, intercepting…

80

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1112853]Often we see moves being invented to accomodate misunderstood hand actions. Like trying to make the dummy 1:1 application, with overturned stances, due to the idea that the dummy is man we move around.
Set pieces for “if a guy kicks this way…we block etc…”.
Or if guy punches like this just stand and block like statue…
A lot of set pieces require the attacker to not follow up with takedowns, shoots. This leaves the set piece merchant vulnerable to feints, set ups, instead of ‘fighting’, with mobilty, distance control, intercepting…[/QUOTE]

Good post Kev!!! :wink:

GH