Kwan Sau

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=GlennR;1111720]Dude (nice aint it) i could easily hop on the “PB waterboy killing machine” fanclub to join in ridiculing you but i choose not to. I respect your opinion and will defend your right to express it (FWIW i think G is a tool and K is getting better with time)[/QUOTE]

Sorry? You defend my opinions? Don’t make me false promises dude :eek:

[QUOTE=GlennR;1111720]What i cant stand is your one-eyed support for anything chinese and you looking down at the western “approach”.
Youve just supported Jackie (because he’s chinese, but is he?) but when i mentioned my rare lineage you slagged me off.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I must have missed something. Your ‘rare lineage’? Did you tell me this on another thread?? I will have to re-read because I don’t recall any ‘slagging off’ here either! Just saying it how I see it.

Jackie, too, has said things I disagree with but it doesn’t stop me posting. I have no preference for anyone Chinese either, I can tell you! One of my oaths was never to teach it back to them!! (joke)

[QUOTE=GlennR;1111720]Just had an ex-student contact me after 15 years thanking me for teaching him how to hit hard… apparently it sticks in his mind and he is a MMA exponent now.

Care to exchange student stories?[/QUOTE]

Not really because, as I’ve said time and time again, I do not have any formal students. BUT I have taught many hundreds over the years, or ‘assisted’ my Sifu teach them if that makes you feel better!

We train how to hit hard too, I think ALL Wing Chun schools should and probably do. And herein lies my thorn with yourself.

You constantly DO NOT defend my views but say you ‘would’ because you have not learnt how I have. And neither has anyone else here actually, as we were all taught as individuals (I hope!) But when I talk of language and culture it isn’t to show disrespect to anyone who has never learnt such a way. It is just to highlight my way. My preference. That’s all.

If you find yourself having problems with that then all I can do is offer my apology. I don’t ever intend to ‘look down’ on any Wing Chun student. I have a profound respect for the guys I have met and worked with over the years, and maybe you’re just hyper sensitive to my rambling :frowning:

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1111749]Stop trying to make me think literal chinese will explain it all. I leaned to read , write and speak cantonese. I am rusty and my teacher moved, so its not a resume’ qualification by any means.[/QUOTE]

That’s your issue, not mine. Learning to speak cantonese isn’t going to help you learn, it helps you ‘teach’ in the same way our ancestors did. Why not ask your Sifu if you can view any original writings he has of WSL’s? Bet they’re not in English or German :wink:

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1111749]There is only one bong ! not a low, high middle, left of center, ooops right abit left a bit, doh ! :D[/QUOTE]

So correct (in 1980) but so wrong today!

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1111749]why would I have both arms extended inside yours while standing still waiting to feel to do a [your idea] kwan ?[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I can’t recall giving you my arms? Simply asking for a translation to base the discussion on of which you have still to deliver an opinion…

43

[QUOTE=CFT;1111738]How long is your piece of string for tying up then? :stuck_out_tongue:

One term is not going to tell me how it’s applied in combat.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm :confused:

I actually expected more from you sir!

In fact WTF???! If your own translation DOESN’T tell you what kwan IS doing in combat what is it telling you?

Simply that you need to be shown :wink:

Phew! That’s that for now… any more?? :smiley:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1111770]Hmmm :confused:

I actually expected more from you sir!

In fact WTF???! If your own translation DOESN’T tell you what kwan IS doing in combat what is it telling you?

Simply that you need to be shown :wink:

[/QUOTE]

That suggests to me that the gwai lo is wrong!!! :D:D:D:D

LOL

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[QUOTE=CFT;1111708]In simple words:

Outside of chi sau, in general, what does kwan sau work against, what should it achieve as an end result and what is the mechanics behind it?

Chee- per your Cantonese dictionary-tie up; bind, truss up; bundle- are good enough basic meanings for kwan. But then- meanings need to be elaborated in different discipline specific contexts.In the wing chun that I do- doing the kwan function involves a coordinated into the line and outward rolling motion with respect to the axis. There is a different inside rolling kwan as well.The concept of the kwan when done well is in the opening of the slt, in the chum kiu, and in the dummy. It can be strengthened with the right BJD motions.. As in other aspects of wing chun knowing one’s axis and sensing the weakness of the other person helps with effectiveness of motions.As with many other wc things both elbows work in coordinated fashion.
People usually think of dai bong and tan as kwan- but the devil in the details are more subtle and effective when learned well.The kwan is important enough to be in every section of doing the mook yan jong.

It is not just for chi sao. Application involves the right timing, distance, knowing the forces involved upon contact etc.The usage of the kwan depends on circumstances including the skill of the user.
If the YGKYM structure training is good and someone is about to tie you up in close quarters with a good kwan you can reverse the relationships and get out of the tie up and throw them, or make them lose their balance and hit them or other martial action.

PS- I don’t care to argue with LG and JG..would be wasted time and energy.

But re KG recent post-aside from lacking basic respect for wing chun teachers including the one he was the longest with–and his long jumbled and unclear attempts to explain wing chun…he refers to coming to Arizona, makes negative remarks about what he claims to have seen and posts a picture.
I have commented on this before but since he posts the same junk again..

  1. Once some years ago Augustine Fong was asked by Victor Kan to sponsor a seminar.Fong sifu did that and has courteously done so for others- WC and non WC masters of note. The Kan seminar was held in Tempe at what was then Tuft’s school on University drive and not in Tucson.
  2. I was there- I am in the group pic that was taken. So were others. Several people including a friend of Robert Chu from California can confirm some of my observations:

a) KG did an awful and stiff chum kiu demo when requested by his sifu..
b) he had little control over his limbs.
c)he made a general fool of himself
d)at one point -one of my kung fu brothers went up to him and “accompanied” the unwilling KG to the door right in front of his sifu.

There is more but why bother??

I have attempted to comment on the thread starters post and somewhat reluctantly comment on KG self adulation and thread diversion.

Joy Chaudhuri

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Good post Joy

I didn’t know it was held up there in Tempe. It must of been a nice school there on University!

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[QUOTE=WC1277;1111820]Good post Joy

I didn’t know it was held up there in Tempe. It must of been a nice school there on University!

Thx. It was in an old set of shops on North side of University between McClintock and Price. It was closed later. Kan sifu brought his banners and hung them on a wall for pictures.

joy

48

The opening of the forms doesnt have kwan, again this shows a complete lack of fundamental understanding of the centerline and its relationship to our fighting methods. … lets keep this on topic shall we . :smiley:

Dont mention that I started the whole thing by hitting the first instructor I did chi-sao with so easily and quickly, sending him back 5 ft that the whole place went quiet :smiley: Nobody liked me there after that I was a marked man and as we can read, still am in a feud with JOY :D.
And then the guy I hit, tried to then explain to ME how to do chi-sao , like, lets forget you just hit me 5ft backwards in less than a second and I will show you how to flow…:smiley: Like hitting a guy in the face , then having him tell you NO ! you hit me like this and you cant hit him his way ;), the rest as you can see is listed by my tense form display, my bafoonery, There was more too, the event with the woman instructor still makes me laugh. Then Sumo tan saos waddling to try and regain face for the earlier SLAP heard around the school.
Ask yourselves, why would a guy walk another anywhere if they were friendly. See my point, its like “well we walked you.” why ? to achieve what ? was I so in need of walking ?:smiley: Just mentioning it as a ‘we showed him , we walked him..’ makes me still laugh after all these years.
But thats just my side of it. I would like to add that, in most schools I visited, I was the guy to beat, a competitor, Arizona was no different. From the beginning I was made to feel unwelcome. Before any tense forms etc…
Generally insecure people with chips on their shoulders.

Saying anything against their idols isnt taken well either :slight_smile:

49

Had to bite my lip on a rebuttal :smiley: lets leave that stinking pile of bat guano where it sits in Aridzona way back then, lets move on together and try to stick to VT.

NO ! there is no kwan sao in the opening of the forms, wrong Joy.

heres another photo !:wink: just finished chi-saoing with Yip Ching & Yip Chun

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1111863]Had to bite my lip on a rebuttal :smiley: lets leave that stinking pile of bat guano where it sits in Aridzona way back then, lets move on together and try to stick to VT.

NO ! there is no kwan sao in the opening of the forms, wrong Joy.

heres another photo !:wink: just finished chi-saoing with Yip Ching & Yip Chun[/QUOTE]

There is in the opening in our system. We roll the X instead of just lifting it. Once again you see end movements and not the in between where the actual bread and butter is in most things.

I dare to ask you, in clear terms, once and for all, what is kwan sau then kevin?

On a side note, I find it funny that the only recognition you’ve ever had in the WC world is association with the people you dismiss exemplified by the pictures you post…

51

I agree with both WC1277 and Joy. In the HKM system, in the opening of the SLT, we do a roll to move from the lower X to the upper X position instead of just lifting it. This is Foundational training for the execution of the Kwun Sao technique.

52

I’d like to thank everyone for sharing their perspectives on my original question. I’ve been following most of the discussion with interest and I’ve learned a few things or at least got some new ideas to explore in training.

My observations:

First the youtube clip of Alan Lee that someone posted in, I think the first response, is a good example of one of the expressions I was mentioning. I have not met Sifu Lee, but if I’m not mistaken, he is in the bronx and was a NY student of Duncan Leung. I felt this type of kwan sao somewhat recently and until I did, I wasn’t really convinced, but I do think that it comes from sparring and not chi sao. I’m playing with it now and we’ll see if it’s something that sticks with me, but I have no doubt that it can work for some people. It wouldn’t have occurred to me on my own, though.

I find it related to a concept that is expressed in White Crane called “breaking bridge”. It doesn’t seem to be as a major of a focus in wing chun, but I don’t dismiss it as not belonging altogether either.

I also get and respect the argument of not attacking limbs, but attacking center/structure/person. This is something that I really like about wing chun. How much and to the exclusion of what else is this central I think comes down to linage a bit. I don’t mean that as either a good or bad remark, simply that I know some linages are more direct and some more shifty.

I don’t claim to have either deep or broad knowledge and I’m not trying to further that argument, but I do have some thoughts on the subject at large. We know at this point, in part thanks to our friend Robert Chu, that not all “pure, classical” wing chun relates to Yip Man. We also know that some of what have been calling “mainland wing chun” on these boards looks different than what we yip man descendants know as pure wing chun. We also know that among Yip Man’s next generation sifus, there are differences in interpretation, expression and emphasis. I personally reject the idea that any one person or linage has the real/exclusive truth that we’re looking for. Not to say that I think everyone’s equal, there are schools that I personally give more credence than others. I know that a Moy Yat student and a Duncan Leung student (for example) will have some different perspectives and approaches and I think we’ve seen some of them in this discussion alone. I respect them both and their differences don’t make me think that either of them is wrong. I’m training hard to find my own connections to good wing chun and welcome all of those perspectives. I’m also interested in some of the ones that don’t get expressed here and for that matter my interest extends to some of the other southern short bridge systems, just because I think there’s some shared DNA. It’s unfortunate that we linage squabble as much as we do, but I accept that it’s part and parcel to our community at this point.

I need to think a little bit more about the kwan sao expressions from the jong. I had kind of forgotten about them. Certainly I’m finding two related (to Joy’s point), but distinct ideas between what Alan Lee was suggesting and the concept of tying/untying. Both things that I’d like to spend a lot of time training in different ways to see where I settle.

For me, I had not embraced kwan sao until fairly recently. I just didn’t really get it. I needed to feel a few really good people’s kwan saos, which I have this year, which has what started my interest. Thanks again for responding and contributing.

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[QUOTE=Jon_Ray_Brooks;1111946]First the youtube clip of Alan Lee that someone posted in, I think the first response, is a good example of one of the expressions I was mentioning. I have not met Sifu Lee, but if I’m not mistaken, he is in the bronx and was a NY student of Duncan Leung. I felt this type of kwan sao somewhat recently and until I did, I wasn’t really convinced, but I do think that it comes from sparring and not chi sao. I’m playing with it now and we’ll see if it’s something that sticks with me, but I have no doubt that it can work for some people. It wouldn’t have occurred to me on my own, though.[/QUOTE]
If you compare the following 2 clips, you can see that Alan Lee tried to block the roundhouse kick with his right arm Bong Shou, and Cung Le tried to block and catch the roundhouse kick with his left arm. Please try both ways and let us know which way that you like it better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXXx01FDJIg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTCXhanxzk

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I’ve done both and to be honest, I’m not crazy about either one. I’m spending time with the Alan Lee method (don’t think that’s what it’s supposed to be called), but I’m not sure if I’ll get there with it, at least not as plan A.

But to get back on track, we were talking about kwan sao and not dealing with roundhouse kicks.

55

In our SLT we have a Low and High Ying Bong Sau that rolls not lifts an opponents energy. This expresses the element of Fa or “neutralizing” energy.

Not so different from what Joy and other’s here have expressed. :slight_smile:

As for Kwan Sau, it appears in many different forms throughout our system.

In regards to this thread, the most appropriate description of Kwan Sau would be for “changing of the line” or “restoring the line” to gain leverage and proper facing/range.

In this sense, it is primarily a bridging structure (Kiu Sau) that is used as a hand-off tool from one line of facing to another. And also falls into the Fa (neutralizing energy) category.

Nice discussion (Sans the PB Kool-aided dogma of course)

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[QUOTE=ntc;1111934]I agree with both WC1277 and Joy. In the HKM system, in the opening of the SLT, we do a roll to move from the lower X to the upper X position instead of just lifting it. This is Foundational training for the execution of the Kwun Sao technique.[/QUOTE]

I find this very inetersting, as I too do a ‘similar’ push/pull with the opening X arms of the forms. We do not call this Kwansau though, it’s Gaansau or ‘cultivating hand’ and is an extension/revolution of the original HK IP Man ‘linear’ version. From my understanding, this was how that set was taught in the mainland too but as long as it makes sense to yourself, all is good :wink:

And if some want to score kudos by posting pictures of themselves with the hieracrchy of Wing Chun, then that’s okay too! We could probably all do that…

That’s me with my Simo, Sihing and Sije. Meeting Ip Ching and Ip Chun in Foshan was ‘an experience’ but has no bearing at all on who or what I represent today. They were very pleasant to us though!

57

Ha! Yeah I know lets stick a kwan sau or a gaan sau in even before we’ve learnt about the ving tsun punch (tan and fook) or anything else because thats what’s SLT is for…complicated crossing actions right at the beginning! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1112000]Ha! Yeah I know lets stick a kwan sau or a gaan sau in even before we’ve learnt about the ving tsun punch (tan and fook) or anything else because thats what’s SLT is for…complicated crossing actions right at the beginning! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D

GH[/QUOTE]

Sorry to point out the obvious G! :smiley: But this IS a motion and method that is taught BEFORE punching from where I come from because it is in that order. Please don’t tell me your fistwork is before your cross arms in SLT? :confused: because that would explain a lot…

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1112051]Sorry to point out the obvious G! :smiley: But this IS a motion and method that is taught BEFORE punching from where I come from because it is in that order. Please don’t tell me your fistwork is before your cross arms in SLT? :confused: because that would explain a lot…[/QUOTE]

Ha! You may have misunderstood my post mate!!! LOL

Of course our crossing action is before the punch but its not kwan sau or gaan sau!!

…because that would explain a lot??? Funny!!!

GH

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[QUOTE=ntc;1111934]I agree with both WC1277 and Joy. In the HKM system, in the opening of the SLT, we do a roll to move from the lower X to the upper X position instead of just lifting it. This is Foundational training for the execution of the Kwun Sao technique.[/QUOTE]

Although I come from a different branch of Yip Man’s VT, I have to agree completely. My old sifu, Leung Ting, also performed the opening movements of SNT and Chum Kiu, that is to say the crossed gaun-sau and crossed tan-sau, with an inside roll, and he specifically noted that this was training for the kwun-sau movement, even though it has a different appearance. Now I am associated with a different group, but we still view these movements this way.