these were questions
Mooing mantis…the question marks they indicate questions. I’m just a student I know very little. Mr Desargo’s response is appreciated and sounds as if for he and Tim Cartmel the answer to the questions is yes.
Was actually responding to knifefighter…should have made that clear for the benefit of the reactive of nature. BTW I practice mantis and respect it but I’m open. Why did you stop teaching Jiujitsu?
[QUOTE=KwaiChangCaine;1045883]Mooing mantis…the question marks they indicate questions. I’m just a student I know very little. Mr Desargo’s response is appreciated and sounds as if for he and Tim Cartmel the answer to the questions is yes.
Was actually responding to knifefighter…should have made that clear for the benefit of the reactive of nature. BTW I practice mantis and respect it but I’m open. Why did you stop teaching Jiujitsu?[/QUOTE]
LOL, so that’s what question marks are for!!! :eek:
I didn’t take your remarks in an offensive way. It is hard to judge one’s tone when typing. So, I will try to be more clear in the future.
I have Knifefighter on ignore, so I didn’t see his comments.
Glad to hear you are open. It is the best way to grow.
I still occasionally teach jujutsu to family and close friends. Though I am very limited by a back injury. In fact, I practice Mantis because it is less strenuous than other styles that I practiced for decades (jujutsu and monkey).
Your comparison judo /jitsu (to a novice at least) sounds, with all its detail well considered and I thank you. Never saw traditional Jiujitsu training that’s why I was asking. Had heard the randori argument before. Don’t think a lot of the judoka out there think of their art as being designed for school children. Rather a way to practice effective technique without losing training partners to injury or death. Was wondering how traditional Jiujitsu practitioners trained assuming they had this concern for their fellow students. Thanks again.
[QUOTE=KwaiChangCaine;1045889]Your comparison judo /jitsu (to a novice at least) sounds, with all its detail well considered and I thank you. Never saw traditional Jiujitsu training that’s why I was asking. Had heard the randori argument before. Don’t think a lot of the judoka out there think of their art as being designed for school children. Rather a way to practice effective technique without losing training partners to injury or death. Was wondering how traditional Jiujitsu practitioners trained assuming they had this concern for their fellow students. Thanks again.[/QUOTE]
Judoka know the history. Judo can be brutal, no doubt about that and it can be useful in self-defense. Its just very different in intent than jujutsu. Judo was designed for sport, jujutsu for controlling or killing.
Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate’s or student’s safety. Read Angry White Pyjamas. It will be very illuminating read on the brutality of Japanese practice.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1045894]
Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate’s or student’s safety. [/QUOTE]
That is a false generalization.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1045882]Why would you assume they are superior? Have you ever seen traditional jujutsu? Judo was the “safe” way to practice techniques taken from jujutsu. Again, it was designed for school children. Is flag football superior to NFL football???.[/QUOTE]
You’ve got it backwards.
[QUOTE=KwaiChangCaine;1045880]So its the focus on randori and the ability to actually use your techs “live” that made judo and its successor arts (bjj) superior? Did the old school Jiujitsu not train in this same way?[/QUOTE]
Yes, the ability to practice full force over and over again is what makes the “sport” model superior. This has been proven over and over again for the past 150 years. When you put the sport model against the “deadly” model, the sport model wins every time. You can’t develop skill with something that is too “deadly” to practice for real. The old school JJ training was based on the theory that techniques which were to dangerous to practice for real were to make up the majority of the system.
The examples below are pretty much what happens every time the two models are tested against each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1045894]Judoka know the history. Judo can be brutal, no doubt about that and it can be useful in self-defense. Its just very different in intent than jujutsu. Judo was designed for sport, jujutsu for controlling or killing.
Actually the Japanese have little concern for their classmate’s or student’s safety. Read Angry White Pyjamas. It will be very illuminating read on the brutality of Japanese practice.[/QUOTE]
Anyone using some simple logic would quickly figure out that if the techniques were used for killing and they had little concern for anyone’s safety, there would be no one to train with because they would all kill each other off.
Exactly…that is why the military does not use real rounds when they are training war games. It would be kind of stupid to reduce your figtining force by as much as 20% each time you train. It would get expensive putting F15 against F15…nuclear sub against nuclear sub…
The MMA is also a sport. Most people teaching street survival wont want to go to the ground. Not saying you shouldnt train for that…you should be ready and skilled in this area.
The sad fact is that most of the mma schools in my area are tanking. The ones that make it only have one or two people who fight and the money is made from cardio kick boxing or some traditional style. I hear MMA has gone the way of most other things. You can go to a couple of seminars and BAM you are a certified level one instructor! Doesnt matter that you dont fight any better than the drunk guys in the bar that had wrestled in high school. I always say…put two monkeys in a cage and give them one banana a day. Sooner or later thier fighting skills will develop.
To be honest I find it some sort of sick perversion to enjoy watching another guy on top of someone beating them in the face. I have to deal with so much hate in the world I really dont want to sit down and watch that at night.
Not picking on MMA. It will produce the best fighters…all styles should be taught as “MMA”…and should have been for years. If yours doesnt then you have a problem. Most of the vids above were MMA against whatever…the reason for my post.
One last thing. It is sad to see these guys from traditinal styles think that they can fight…can they be that foolish?
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1045882]Why would you assume they are superior? Have you ever seen traditional jujutsu? Judo was the “safe” way to practice techniques taken from jujutsu. Again, it was designed for school children. Is flag football superior to NFL football??? :eek: That would be the same logic that you are using here.
Let me give an example of a common judo technique and its jujutsu counterpart:
In judo, tomoenage (circle throw) starts with tori and nage facing each other with gripped lapels:
In jujutsu yoroi-kumi-ushi (grappling in armor):
How would you rather be thrown? The sport method, or the traditional method?
As for how the koryu or traditional jujutsu arts trained, it was on a ryu by ryu basis. Some used only forms, some fought within the school, others stormed other dojos.[/QUOTE]
well i dont know how i’d want to be thrown, but i can guess out of the two who would be able to throw me
well the only time judo faced off against traditional JJ incompetition that I know of was the police trials, and the so called safe kids art put several traditional guys in hospital or the morgue, go figure
[QUOTE=mantid1;1045979]Exactly…that is why the military does not use real rounds when they are training war games. It would be kind of stupid to reduce your figtining force by as much as 20% each time you train. It would get expensive putting F15 against F15…nuclear sub against nuclear sub…
The MMA is also a sport. Most people teaching street survival wont want to go to the ground. Not saying you shouldnt train for that…you should be ready and skilled in this area.
The sad fact is that most of the mma schools in my area are tanking. The ones that make it only have one or two people who fight and the money is made from cardio kick boxing or some traditional style. I hear MMA has gone the way of most other things. You can go to a couple of seminars and BAM you are a certified level one instructor! Doesnt matter that you dont fight any better than the drunk guys in the bar that had wrestled in high school. I always say…put two monkeys in a cage and give them one banana a day. Sooner or later thier fighting skills will develop.
To be honest I find it some sort of sick perversion to enjoy watching another guy on top of someone beating them in the face. I have to deal with so much hate in the world I really dont want to sit down and watch that at night.
Not picking on MMA. It will produce the best fighters…all styles should be taught as “MMA”…and should have been for years. If yours doesnt then you have a problem. Most of the vids above were MMA against whatever…the reason for my post.
One last thing. It is sad to see these guys from traditinal styles think that they can fight…can they be that foolish?[/QUOTE]
around here its the MMA classes that are packed and the TCMA ones dying out, and like all styles yo have people cashing in, the good thing with MMA is that its easy to find the good schools, just go and see who is winning in all the comps in your area and go train there 
[QUOTE=mantid1;1045979]Exactly…that is why the military does not use real rounds when they are training war games. It would be kind of stupid to reduce your figtining force by as much as 20% each time you train. It would get expensive putting F15 against F15…nuclear sub against nuclear sub…?[/QUOTE]
Actually, the military DOES use live rounds. Training with techniques that are “too deadly” to practice full force would be the same as firing your weapon without ever using real ammo… you would never become a very good shot.
The basic principle of all human performance training is to get as close as you can to the actual event that you are training for. Neglect this and you will develop very little skill.
[QUOTE=mantid1;1045979]The MMA is also a sport. Most people teaching street survival wont want to go to the ground. Not saying you shouldnt train for that…you should be ready and skilled in this area. [/QUOTE]
One way to know a person is clueless about “street survival” is if they say you NEVER want to go to the ground. Of course there are times you want to go there, especially if you know what to do there. Most cops who work the street know this.
manti
The sad fact is that most of the mma schools in my area are tanking. The ones that make it only have one or two people who fight and the money is made from cardio kick boxing or some traditional style. I hear MMA has gone the way of most other things. You can go to a couple of seminars and BAM you are a certified level one instructor!
the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.
There is no reputation to go by, no long term staying in business power, no name recognition. etc etc
Frost,
the good thing with MMA is that its easy to find the good schools, just go and see who is winning in all the comps in your area and go train there
because students win some compeititions doesnt make it a good school…
thats like saying the kung fu school with all the trophies in the wondow must be a good school. It is actually the extact opposite. just sayin
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1045995]manti
the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.
There is no reputation to go by, no long term staying in business power, no name recognition. etc etc[/QUOTE]
Kind of like TMA schools have been doing for years.
[QUOTE=Michael Dasargo;1045881]I believe tim cartmell put it best: practical vs. practice-able.
sport is an opportunity to test a body of techniques vs. a fully combative opponent, thus proving the validity and reliability of said techniques.
many practical techniques are pretty straightforward, but also generally only tested on duty or illegally…which is a small percentage of the population.
So if you are neither military/LE nor getting into street fights, chances are you aren’t getting as many fully committed reps, thus reducing the reliability of ones performance under combative conditions.
M.
PS
What’s to stop a Judoka from kickin’ someone in the nuts in a street fight?
IMO, cognizance.[/QUOTE]
QFT +10
the vast body of Motor Learning research demonstrates pretty clearly that the context of practice is as, or in some cases, more important than the content; meaning that if I am primarily practicing “non-lethal” strikes like jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts against a fully non-compliant opponent, if I am out on “the street” and decide I want to now use my uber-deadly throat grabs, eye pokes, crane beaks, mantis claws, etc., I will have a much better chance of successfully using those than the guy who trains those techniques all the time in the air or against fully / semi-compliant opponent: I mean, to change a jab to a finger strike is not that big a deal - if I am doing finger conditioning and sparring full out using jabs, and mixing in some semi-controlled work w the finger strikes, that’s going to be as close as I get to actually jabbing an eye “for real”; of course, I;m not saying someone SHOULD do this, I;m just illustrating how the core work still should involve full-out sparring because that teaches the timing, distance, power delivery etc. in a way closest to a non-sporting altercation (and again, not forgetting the unique randomness associated w/street fighting, including environmental parameters, unpredictable behavior of people, etc., but again, ring training at least gets you closer to that than anything else)
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1045995]
because students win some compeititions doesnt make it a good school…[/QUOTE]
sure it does - if it’s an MMA, san da, BJJ or judo school - because they train to actively use their system in a competative venue, then it tells you that they are successful at what they train for; and since the students are used to / successful at using their skills in a live environment, you can have SOME idea that their ability to use it on “the street” is going to, on average, be based on this;
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1045995]thats like saying the kung fu school with all the trophies in the wondow must be a good school. It is actually the extact opposite. just sayin[/QUOTE]
this is also true - because most kung fu competitions involve forms or some weird version of point style fighting; so yes, being good at this stuff has no bearing on one’s abity to fight “for real”
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1045995]
the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.
[/QUOTE]
get real - you just described a large body of TMA schools, and even the ones that are “legit” with established backgrounds, just because they certify someone, who certifies THEM? MA groups that are legitimately certified would be ones like wushu, judo or (sad to say) WTF TKD, because they have oversite from various national governing bodies that have independent criteria for certification, are in essence “peer reviewed, etc.”; (i’m not saying these groups are perfect or without corruption, but my point is that the notion of certification is at least more credible)
and please, all the TMA guys cry about how NYS wants to institute professional credentialing requirements for MA schools (which would probably involve really dumb stuff like having instructors mandatorily certified in silly things like CPR / basic firs aid and to take ridiculous classes like Child Abuse ID / Reporting :rolleyes:)! and aren’t you a TCM pratitioner? THERE’s your certification / credentialing - oversite, accountability, professional code of conduct, practice act, etc. - these are the hallmarks of sound credentialing
so to talk about “credentials”, one has to think a bit more broadly than some TCMA organization in Hong Kong operating under it’s own auspices giving 'certification" to people as if that means anything
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1045995]manti
the Raging Wolf school just opened up across the street from me, the owner is not certified, no professional fighting exp and doesnt advertise where he learned from.
I find this a lot with these open over night schools. You can have no credentials but because the MMA is the new fad you can dupe the general public who will pay to join without knowing if thier instructor is any good.
There is no reputation to go by, no long term staying in business power, no name recognition. etc etc
Frost,
because students win some compeititions doesnt make it a good school…
thats like saying the kung fu school with all the trophies in the wondow must be a good school. It is actually the extact opposite. just sayin[/QUOTE]
nope of course not you should look for the schools that dont compete because they are above that and too skilled :rolleyes:
MMA is all about fighting, if a school has a lot of students doing well in comps then its a good bet its a good school, either that or it got lucky and all the best natuaral fighters all decided to go the the same school at the same time and decided to stay there…which of the above do you think is more likely?
And it depends how those trophies in the window were won, if it was by competiing in fighting then its probably a good school to go to if one actually wants to learn fighting, if they won them in forms comps its probably a good school to attend if one wants to do forms well, go figure competition being a good indicator of a schools worth, who would have thought that?
wow, OK I will try to respond to each of your posts and keep it short
TAAI
sure it does - if it’s an MMA, san da, BJJ or judo school - because they train to actively use their system in a competative venue, then it tells you that they are successful at what they train for; and since the students are used to / successful at using their skills in a live environment, you can have SOME idea that their ability to use it on “the street” is going to, on average, be based on this;
OK I will partialy agree with you here, however in my expereicene the TKD schools that turn out great tourney fighters are not tough perse and usually cant fight for ****e on the street. I would have to say if you follow rules for too long its hard to fight outside those rules based on engraining. this is the same with sport fighters If you do something to much and to long its hard to do it another way would you agree to this ?
get real - you just described a large body of TMA schools, and even the ones that are “legit” with established backgrounds, just because they certify someone, who certifies THEM?
I am certified through ACMAF, Bejing medical university and my teacher who is 4th generation 8 step. as well as the mantis cave. But i see your point however one finds a teacher based on his ability and skill but having a recognisable name is also sought after.
If a gym has a NTFT trainer as and the other gym has a guy who is in great shape but not NFFT the novice would train with the gym where the guy is at least holding some sort of certification of what he is professionallly trained in, this is the same with any degree education or certification. sonethign is better than nothing.
so to talk about “credentials”, one has to think a bit more broadly than some TCMA organization in Hong Kong operating under it’s own auspices giving 'certification" to people as if that means anything
I’m 100% poositive there are a ton of crappy TCMA schools, however i will only speak of mine.
I would say when you are recognized internationally form your system and ranked in that system that is in place for many decades in sveral countries its credentials are as good as any. what makes NYS credentials any better than say H.K USA CA?
frost,
nope of course not you should look for the schools that dont compete because they are above that and too skilled
My school/students only competed once becuse we were personally invited by a friend wo owns a TKD school. We dont do tourneys becuse they have gotten really commerical, they dont replicate real fighting, they are way too political. they give a flase sense of achivment. I know I used to fight ISKA full contact in the 80’s and 90’s and also I was a judge for few years.
MMA is all about fighting, if a school has a lot of students doing well in comps then its a good bet its a good school,
I will partially agree on this, however I know competition politics and the best fighters dont always win, we all know this… MMA comps are slowly getting as corrutp as PBA on a smaller scale. it just happned here in NY the better fighter did not train at the school who sponsered the monety for the fight and lost. go figure
And it depends how those trophies in the window were won, if it was by competiing in fighting then its probably a good school to go to if one actually wants to learn fighting, if they won them in forms comps its probably a good school to attend if one wants to do forms well, go figure competition being a good indicator of a schools worth, who would have thought that
?
Perhaps you have not been around the circut as long as I have but sponsership money, who knows whos, stratch my back guys will always be around. Not all the good fighters are in competition. You shoudl know this, for a lot of guys its not about the trophey.
I know alot of forms people who frown on commercialized competitions and we hate Wushu, so this is NOT a good measure of excellence.
fellas, dont get my wrong I was invloved with the UFC from the beginning, my teacher was on the board and I personally helped bring it to MY city Buffalo NY and Niagara Falls NY so Joel my kung fu brother who I trained with could fight in it., and he did and won both his alternate bouts.
I also hosted the world Pancrase Champion Yoshiki Takahashi and worked with the president of the WORLD PANCRASE CREATE INC. Masami Osaki and they came to the US and trained at my school.
I am buying an Octagon next week and Chuck Anzelone (the only instructor in NYS cerfied By Gracies themselves) is teaching MMA in my school so I am all for it NOT aginst it but some fo you guys are saying its the be all and end all of fighting…all Im saying is it has its place.