Kung Fu cross-training in some kind of ground art

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

hi guys,

i train in wing chun and in our lineage we do study groundfighting
applications, with wing chun the majority of the stuff you can do standing up, you can do on the ground… this is ok so far, but the important thing is YOU MUST practice doing this on the ground on a REGULAR basis, the ground is very tiring and a different environment from standing. you cant just expect to train standing up 95% of the time and assume that if you do go to the ground your vertical techniques will immediately translate, it wont happen.

what i would say however, is that a lot of people (including kung fu stylists) since the explosion of popularity for all things grappling, have denounced the potency of striking on the ground , almost favouring rolling around on the ground, looking for a position to secure a submission or choke from (and before the grappling biased people start howling in indignation about how “theres more to grappling than submissions and choking people out” (is there?) i do appreciate that some styles do have what looks like very bad kickboxing as their striking arsenal..).

a VERY good demonstration of what happens when a striker doesnt panic when the fight hits the ground , but carries on with HIS game (rather than trying to out grapple a grappler) was the recent UFC held at the royal albert hall in London.

Our british fighter ian freeman (who has some submission but is predominantly a striker), fought a very usefull american submission fighter (a ufc champ from the lions den i think).

anyway, the fight predictably went to the ground quite quickly and from that moment on, at every possible oppurtunity freeman punched/elbowed/kneed at the submission fighter who desperately tried a succession of ankle/arm locks etc, rather than throw away what hes good at , freeman carried on the barrage until the submission fighter was punched into oblivion…

grappling is usefull (and i do it myself sometimes), but lets not raise our hands in surrender all the time to the grappling “experts” out there who like to post on cma sites about how what we do is useless.

just because we practice kung fu doesnt mean we cant fight…

22

rubthebuddha

If I was the President,I would double your $$$$$ as my press secretary .

Very well said.

23

If you have short power - use it.

Would you guys out there consider sparing with guys who practice ground fighting and grappling arts cross training? I’ve Never really though of it that way…

The way I look at it is - Train for ways to stop a ‘shoot’ (and I mean shoot not tackle or whatever some people think a shoot is) using your system and train to use your system once on the ground and against stand-up grappling or joint manipulation. That way your using what your already know.

That is of course if you worry about being grappled or taken to the ground. Most competent strikers could be able to handle a generic tackle/rush with fast foot work and a deflecting/stricking combination.

24

you just need to have the right instructor who knows how to teach it. the majority of it is the same as the standing stuff as far as techniques go, you’re just applying them at non-verticle positions.

Biggest misconception in MA’s ever.

The way of moving on the ground is fundamentally different. Anybody worth their salt will thrash you for believing this if you don’t practice being on the ground with somebody good. Good doesn’t mean your teacher or partners that have never trained a groundfighting art of some kind. Good is a decently skilled wrestler, Judoka, BJJer, etc.

Ian’s a fine example and all, but he didn’t get that way practicing against kicboxers on the ground. You don’t have to grapple if you want to pound, but you need to know how to stay on top. You’re never going to learn that if do “groundfighting,” with people who don’t really know how.

25

I used to think that the limited ground work I’d done in Karate and Taiji was enough to get me up again at least.Then I started doing BJJ and got a huge reality check.

I expected to get owned in their natural arena - just not quite as comprehensively… by people who’d only been training 6 months+

To me this is a seperate issue to stand-up - all of them had trouble taking me down and I felt comfortable that I could have got a few good shots and locks in during the standup, obviously my Taiji stands me in good stead for that. But when we started on the floor or were working from a throw it was horrible - I had no familiarity at all with what was happening, I gassed very quickly and I was not able to preempt anything they were doing. A familiarity thing that everyone goes through I later discovered.

I also keep getting bollocked for planting my foot - some of the ground controls require the top of the foot to be in contact with the opponent. The ol’ Taiji insists this is wrong so I end up making a mess of it. My argument is that at 18 stone I don’t need anything else, I just squash them - then the instructor rolls me off him and chokes me again. and again. Eventually I agree with him until the next lesson when I make the same error yet again. I think I’m in denial.

I don’t think groundwork is vital for self-defence - but ever since I became aware of this whole new arena, I wanted to be competent in it - just in case. I’ll be honest in that I’ve never been in a fight where I ended up on the ground and I’ve never been in a fight where I was thrown. I haven’t seen any either. But I haven’t had a whole lot of confrontations in my adult life (less than 10 I should think) and I don’t make a point of looking for them.

Seeking ground work in Taiji was silly - I can apply principles and concepts from Taiji, but if I want to stand on the shoulders of giants I need to go to the people that do it full-time. It’s like a BJJ guy deciding he’s going to learn to strike on the basis of stand-up grappling and floor work.

I think a lot of systems understand that groundwork is necessary, i just don’t think any of them considered the possiblity that someone would be skillful there.

26

Well once again…the focus of CMA is that most of their styles are about STANDUP fighting…some style have excellent ways to deal with grabbing or a simple tackle takedown. But I have yet to seen or roll with any CMA guys that can handle themselves on the actual ground…only bjj and wrestlers have it down here…of course the bjj and wrestlers don’t have the standup capability of a CMA guy…that’s why many choose to CROSSTRAIN. Seems like many CMA guys are unwilling. OH WELL.

27

It’s strange really. I study how groundfighting and other styles work toget an idea to be able to counter them but I’m not gonna practice the art.

Legend no one is going to do a spin kick on the groun it simply can’t be done. Maybe a low side kick to the knee or a scissor kick if the person is standing but it depends on what you know and how to do it in that position. Whether you beleive it or not my style has lot’s of techniques to take the person to the ground but not fight htere, strange but that’s whow it is.

The only type of groundfighting that I have learned from my style is just a striking portion but not grappling. A couple of weeks ago when I was sparring with my calssmate I was actaully taken down for the first time in a very long time. I realise that I’m not invincible including that I am limited and accept my faults. I don’t like to bragg but thankfully God gave me a good abilty to know how to use my stance work properly and I can give your below average to average grappler a hard time before I am taken down. However I do realize that I can be taken down and that I am not exempt from it in any way.

My schools philosophy is that you have to keep from being taken down to the ground. Reasons why are obvious and I wont go through it. I’m not kocking groundfigthing and I acknowledge it’s practicality and effectiveness but I prefer my style and follow it’s philosophy.

Oh but dont’ get me wrong I have sparred some very good wrestlers who simply just pummeled me but that doesn’t mean I’m going to crosstrain with any style just because I lost. I simply look at my weaknesess and how that other system works. If I were to cross train every time I lost a sparring meatch I would have to study boxing, hung ga, another mantis, high school wrestling and a whole bunch of other styles.

The reason why I dont’ crosstrain in groundfighting is:

  1. I simply jsut don’t want to because I’m very comfortable with my own style since it has worked for me againts multiple styles and people.

  2. I would have been interested but those stupid trolls have made me resent the idea of taking it, although I always look for info on it and will sparr any grounfighter for the experience.

Hey I know it looks very closed minded but I’m open to all styles, I just wont study them. If I get grounded and pounded then it’s my fault and I’ll deal with it.

28

Oh and the main reason why most cma’ers wont crosstrain with bjj or groundfighting is because they want to keep cma purely chinese. It’s the way how it is.

29

Taji guys can fight on the ground.

To answer the question:

One of my training partners runs the local BJJ academy, I goto his school on free-rolling night, and get my ass kicked by usually 12 consequtive bjj blues and purples. I destroy most whites.

People need to train for all ranges of fighting (wether you consider ranges as contact vs non-contact, or standing vs on the ground, or kicking/boxing/trapping/groundfighting, or whatever, you must train them all, and then battle vs other competent people in those ranges.)

Actually, people dont need to do anything, I will train for all ranges, others can die at my hands one day in glorious combat.

30

Originally posted by bougeac
[B]hi guys,

i train in wing chun and in our lineage we do study groundfighting
applications, with wing chun the majority of the stuff you can do standing up, you can do on the ground… this is ok so far, but the important thing is YOU MUST practice doing this on the ground on a REGULAR basis, the ground is very tiring and a different environment from standing. you cant just expect to train standing up 95% of the time and assume that if you do go to the ground your vertical techniques will immediately translate, it wont happen.

what i would say however, is that a lot of people (including kung fu stylists) since the explosion of popularity for all things grappling, have denounced the potency of striking on the ground , almost favouring rolling around on the ground, looking for a position to secure a submission or choke from (and before the grappling biased people start howling in indignation about how “theres more to grappling than submissions and choking people out” (is there?) i do appreciate that some styles do have what looks like very bad kickboxing as their striking arsenal..).

grappling is usefull (and i do it myself sometimes), but lets not raise our hands in surrender all the time to the grappling “experts” out there who like to post on cma sites about how what we do is useless.

just because we practice kung fu doesnt mean we cant fight… [/B]

are you referring to the “anti-grappling” some WC guys do? I’m not sure that would even count as grappling. As for the bad kickboxing, you are likely calling what you see - bad kickboxing. remember, many grapplers now crosstrain, so they most likely do take boxing, muay thai, karate or kung fu (okay, well, boxing or muay thai in most cases) and they are no different than the avg CMA - you have a life other than MA and can’t spend equal time on both your standing or ground game. consequently, one will be worse than the other. Then you have the more elite who do spend ample time in both.

as for that last statement, nobody is saying kung fu guys can’t fight, HOWEVER, there are likely thousands that can’t. the same goes for karate, grappling, etc. not everybody is a fighter, and not everybody is trained properly; that’s not a stylistic issue. The nature of sport fighting however, produces an effective fighter faster than a traditional style will. Over the long run, the two may be equal, one may be better, etc. depending on the person, but from the beginning, I’d pick a 6 month boxer over a 6 month longfist guy any day.

31

“I disagree with some of these posts. alot of the techs do not directly translate to the ground. you can do 100 tornados a day if you want to, but if you don’t apply them on the ground, you will NEVER do an upa on the ground. movement is different on the ground, so alot of the chin na techs can be neutralized, as you can move in directions on the ground that you cannot do while standing.”

Granted in appearance the tornado kicks and the Upa drill (bridging) don’t “look” exactly the same. But your post lead me to think whether you have worked with either or both of them. Perhaps it’s the terminology that confuses you. Both techniques/drills are ground based. Here’s what Renzo Gracie and Rolyer Gracie have to say about the Upa drill in their book “Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Theory and Technique” P.36-37

[Quote] Another useful drill is the Upa drill. You will remember that the upa is one of the basic escapes from the mounted position. It consists of … then arching your body so that your hips come off the floor, … This movement of arching your body (often referred to as “bridging”) is essential to many escapes in Brazilian jit-jitsu. [End quote]

Having said that I must also add that both make use of one shoulder to pivet on the floor.

If your point is mainly standup grappling (Chin Na) techs differ somewhat from ground grappling tech because of what used to be vertical now becomes horizontal plus the present of the ground limits certain escapes, etc… I agreed that nothing will substitute hardwork in both areas. However, we should also remember, Human bodies operate under the very same set of physical principles for thousands of years. Perception of combat effectiveness might change from time to time. This set of physical principles has not drasticly changed since the beginning of our spiece. To admire groundwork is one thing; to mystify or idolize it is another.

The major handicap is that traditional Chinese martial arts have yet to have “star spokesmen” for their various aspects of combat. Anyway, believe what you will of what is lacking of TCMA.

Peace my friend.

Mantis108

32

ground based? a tornado kick is an aerial kick that lands on one foot. what are you referring to? describe what you are calling a tornado kick.

And actually, being on the ground doesn’t limit escapes, as you said. At least not in my experience. you have WAY more movement and freedom on the ground. that’s why there is a problem with chin na on the ground; stading, you may not beable to get out of it, buton the ground you can usually maneuver out of a small joint manipulation unless it’s used in conjunction with a bigger joint manipulation or with a pin. When you do that, it’s no longer the same chin na technique. it becomes a joint manipulation the way that ground fighters do it. I don’t idolize grappling in any way, however, training in both standup and grappling, I see and feel the differences, and don’t just speculate, like many people here.

33

Tornado kicks come up as the standard of kungfu techniques!?

God help us.

34

good point Braden :smiley:

35

Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]

The way of moving on the ground is fundamentally different. Anybody worth their salt will thrash you for believing this if you don’t practice being on the ground with somebody good. Good doesn’t mean your teacher or partners that have never trained a groundfighting art of some kind. Good is a decently skilled wrestler, Judoka, BJJer, etc.
[/B]

Merry,

totally agreed. as i hear pretty constantly in class, you need to be able to deal with people who are **** good at their stuff – not just those who learn it in our class in order to feed the attack to their partner. we have a former competitive thai fighter in our kwoon, and we take advantage of that. hapkido, jkd, tsd – lots of stuff. but our grappling was limited. so we brought in a collegiate wrestling coach to show us how to do stuff right.

it’s like i was talking about either earlier on this thread or on another – i have a couple sihings in law enforcement who are instructors in their own right of restraint work for law enforcement. when i work with my normal classmates, defending most attacks is simple. however, working with the coppers is a whole 'nother story, and i get my arm ripped off and handed back to me on a regular basis. it’s them that i learn the most from.

36

Obviously, there is a communication gap due to terminologies and different definations.

Here’s a clarification:

I come to realize that there might be certain confusion regarding some terminologies that are being used. So I would like to clarify them. As least in the way I would use them.

  1. Cresent Kicks - they are often called Lotus kicks. These are high kicks. It can be done inside to outside or vice verse. The inside cresent is sometime known as Hanging face Kick for it target the face/head.

  2. Hurricane Kicks - Kind of cresent kick with a leap. Usually, it starts and ends in a horse stance. The move resembles the whirl wind so it is thus named.

  3. Tornado kick - It starts off lying on your back and perform cresent kick. So it’s like a cresent kick on the ground. It can be used a mean to get up like the centipede leap (flip up). The name came from the way it resemble a tornado or twister. Some styles call it “Wu Long Jiao Chu” (black dragon twisting the pole). It can also be just to flip onto your belly and perform other ground move.

  4. Centipede leap - It starts off lying on your back and flip up.

These are basic kicks and leap in the fundamental training that most northern styles would have. Sometime the terms Hurricane and Tornado are mixed up. So for the record, I post this clarification.

Also I see you are drawing a line between what is Chin Na and what is ground grappling joint manipulation. Now I am not sure why you would come to think that Chin Na is mostly small joint (fingers and wrists?) . As fas as my understanding of Chin Na goes, small or large joint manipulations as well as chokes are within Chin Na domain. Your point of large joint manipulation coupled with pin/holds is a trait of ground grappling oriented styles is well taken. Finally, like you pointed out, people should see and feel for themselves the similarities and/or differences. Perhaps your training or your discipline(s) encourage you to discern the differences. That is great. But there are people who work to narrow the gap. I don’t mean to criticize But I think that presumption of TCMA people not knowing and not working with the ground range techniques and that they “speculate” the situation more so than articulate their personal experiences to bring forth a productive dialogue is not in keeping with the spirit of this thread. I for one do not draw that assumption about anyone participating in this thread. Sorry, if I have given you the impression that I did.

Mantis108

37

The school I’m interested in has two teachers teaching there. One (who owns the school) teaches the stand up. (white crane based with JKD priciples and other things such as chin na, a few things from wing chun etc.) The other teacher teaches the ground game.(BJJ) I thought that was kinda cool, having two teachers at the same school, one strictly teaching stand up, the other strictly teaching the ground. I’ll be looking forward to training there.

38

Are these big kicks in any classical styles, or a modern import?

39

Hi Braden

Those kicks are in traditional Kung Fu training (mostly Northern long fist styles) as well as modern Wushu. You can even find them in Beijing operas which Jackie Chan was trained in. The problem is that modern Wushu and Bejing opera exaggerate the moves to suit their purposes therefore the practical and real purposes of these moves are not clear to the observers any more let alone which principles are behind them so that they work functionally. Traditional Kung Fu would teach these moves in combinations (2 to 3 in a roll mostly and are logically linked together so that they work together when applied) in the forms and would have applications or 2 men drills to make sure the techniques are learned properly while Wushu put together these large moves (sometime 5 or 6) randomly that they don’t even work together practically yet visually pleasing to the audience. Modern Wushu has done a lot of damage, which they flatout denied, to the traditional Kung Fu. It is a very sad situation. :frowning:

Mantis108

40

Hi Mantis, thanks for the info. I agree regarding the negative influence of modern wushu (although some of it is quite stunning visually).

I was just curious about the kicks… I’ve had reasonable exposure to a variety of so-called northern styles (pigua, baji, tanglang, taiji, and bagua), and haven’t seen any evidence of the ‘northern legs’ that people talk about. I’m familiar with the big kicks from modern wushu routines, and I certainly identify them as being characteristically chinese, but I’ve never seen them classically and often wondered where they came from.

In the long (classic) bagua routine I know, there is only one move where the foot goes above the waist, but it’s been taught to me primarily as a groin (or nearby) kick done with extension for power training purposes, as well as conditioning (balance, etc).

I suppose I would see the big kicks in things like lohan, tantui, and cha quan styles?