[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;772802]Good choice for making your point. 
As for what they did, a rather large percentage of today’s so highly advantaged martial artists can’t perform those routines at that level either… let alpone the “general populace”.
[/QUOTE]
And what would that prove? Surely nothing in the content of this thread. It’s about fighting skills, MMA and Kung-Fu Bullsh1t. Who cares if a guy can’t flower some swords today?
Yeah, I think CMA trained alive combined with a grappling style (BJJ, Sambo, Shoot wrestling, Catch) would turn out some great CMA based mixed martial artists. With San Da and Shuai Jiao practiced ALIVE, CMA would already have 75% of the equation covered. Just add ground grappling and watch it grow, LOL.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772797]It was not all that long ago that living to 40 years of age was considered to be a relatively long life, and even so, some lived FAR longer than that.
Reply]
Nonsense, there are PRE agricultural cultures in the Amazons that routinely live into their 80’s and beyond and show NONE of the modern diseases like hyper tension, heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc…There are also some in Borneo as well.
That whole 40 year life span is nothing but a crock of Sh!t to promote the wonders of modern medicine…it’s a marketing ploy that has become so ingrained that it is held as fact, when the truth is more the opposite. Modern times has LOWERED the over all heath of mankind considerably.[/QUOTE]
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus06.pdf#027
Got to depend on just what flavor koolaid you drink?
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772797]It was not all that long ago that living to 40 years of age was considered to be a relatively long life, and even so, some lived FAR longer than that.
Reply]
Nonsense, there are PRE agricultural cultures in the Amazons that routinely live into their 80’s and beyond and show NONE of the modern diseases like hyper tension, heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc…There are also some in Borneo as well.
That whole 40 year life span is nothing but a crock of Sh!t to promote the wonders of modern medicine…it’s a marketing ploy that has become so ingrained that it is held as fact, when the truth is more the opposite. Modern times has LOWERED the over all heath of mankind considerably.[/QUOTE]
I think you’ve been smoking something ‘organic.’ Your grasp of history and fact is risible.
Interesting numbers…no sign of any data prior to 1900 though…by then we were already in the early industrial age though, so it’s kind of Mute to site it.
I think you’ve been smoking something ‘organic.’ Your grasp of history and fact is risible
Reply]
Ok there Bub…meanwhile there are 80 year old members of the Zowie tribe that can rip up to tree tops like it’s nothing, and the mid 20’s researchers studying them need frik’n ratcheting gear and take as much as 20 minutes to reach the canopy… :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772800]I have. You probably missed the other post. [/quote]
I’d call them rants…
What about it? If all the stories are 90% inflated baloney, and it’s based on 10% fact…
Then you’re still accepting, as opposed to disposing of, that other 10%?
And mentioning the whole thing about third world countries…I don’t see the relavance. There is a 4 year old kid in India, B. Sighn, have you heard of him? He can run 20 miles a day, 6 days a week. He runs for 6 hours straight. What does that prove? That there are bizarre anomolies in the world. Surely we can’t be assuming that all the founders of all the styles, and all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation guys were all ‘savantish’ with thier KF as well? Not so much..
Today’s Third World countries in many ways live in worse conditions than “yesterdays’” First World countries.
It’s so funny. Why is it that no one sucked backed then? All these guys, all these masters are great.
I don’t believe I said that.
Even today’s generation?
VERY DEFINITELY, didn’t say that, either.
Where are all the guys how were the LAST guy to be accepted by so and so as a student, never practiced that much, and was basically the school hack? Are you saying this guy never taught anyone and just died off?
HA HA HA.
Sure he did. He’s actually the one who rushed right out to teach as soon as he gave his teach a big red envelope or when is teacher died. But he never told anyone he sucked. He just kept up the facade, pumped up his teachers image and taught a bunch of other people who became convinced that they were great too! LOL
I don’t think you’ll see me say anywhere that this kind of thing couldn’t and hasn’t happened. I just happen to have a different reaction than you do… I don’t think it’s a laughing matter. 
You seem like a smart guy, do dont’ you see the fault in this logic (meaning yours, not mine)
I see that you’re p!ssed off over something.
And given what variance? You didn’t make a valid point. You are comparing lifespan to what? Increases in sports science and nutrition?
Lifespan today vs Lifespan “then”.
Physical capabilities, ditto.
And no, I dont’ think there were too many guys that had today’s level of skill.
You’re first going to have to find some good number of todays’ folks that have any skill at all… then we can “do the numbers” and see “what the percentages are”.
I do think there were a lot stories about guys breaking rocks with their pinky and chi-blasting a guy from 10 feet away.
I may have less patience with BS than you do.
Funny thing though. 99% of today’s Heih Gung tricks are merely physics tricks and can be learned by anyone in a matter of moments …
I also dislike “tricks” of any kind/description… no matter how long they take to “master”.
- and no one is willing to do that today? (but they were 100 years ago?)
A lot of that boils down to “what’s in it for me?” (in whatever era)
Open your mind for a minute and think of the motivations and the situations which would cause people to make up, embellish or misinterpret the accomplishments of their masters?
I think I just wrote about that above.
If you have trouble thinking about the past, think about the present; My master could do THIS, therefore, I’m sooo cool and you should train with me. I won’t tell you that I have no proof of this, and don’t know how to teach YOU to do this, but I’m still cool. Come train with me.
Same motive as above.
Personally, I subscribe to “the school of show me”.
I’m not trying to beat you up Pete, don’t take it personal. I just have a real axe to grind regarding the myths and stories surrounding TCMA. I’m trying to teach my students how to really use CMA in today’s world. Not the fantasy world that 92% of other TCMA schools are living in.
You haven’t said anything that I should take personally.
My own axe might actually be bigger than yours… I just don’t flash it around that often, or make as big a noise about it.
I’ve also always been all about use.
Again, nothing personal.
Noted/appreciated.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772810]Interesting numbers…no sign of any data prior to 1900 though…by then we were already in the early industrial age though, so it’s kind of Mute to site it.[/QUOTE]
“mute”? LOL, you ought to be :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772797]It was not all that long ago that living to 40 years of age was considered to be a relatively long life, and even so, some lived FAR longer than that.
Reply]
Nonsense, there are PRE agricultural cultures in the Amazons that routinely live into their 80’s and beyond and show NONE of the modern diseases like hyper tension, heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc…There are also some in Borneo as well.
That whole 40 year life span is nothing but a crock of Sh!t to promote the wonders of modern medicine…it’s a marketing ploy that has become so ingrained that it is held as fact, when the truth is more the opposite. Modern times has LOWERED the over all heath of mankind considerably.[/QUOTE]
Right. Unfortunatly, if the Jungle Amazon gets his little toe infected, unless he has a penicillin plant nearby (HA HA), he’s probably gonna be dead. How’s that for progress??
AND, where is the proof of these 80 year old amazons (and beyond, as you said)? Easy to say, please submit some proof of what you say, the name of a tribe perhaps? An author for reference? If not, it’s just babble..
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772811]I think you’ve been smoking something ‘organic.’ Your grasp of history and fact is risible
Reply]
Ok there Bub…meanwhile there are 80 year old members of the Zowie tribe that can rip up to tree tops like it’s nothing, and the mid 20’s researchers studying them need frik’n ratcheting gear and take as much as 20 minutes to reach the canopy…[/QUOTE]
Wow, and somewhere in Peoria, IL, there is an old lady who makes just the best apple pie!
And in 1875 the first recorded swim of the English channel took place!
Irrelevant? Proof of nothing? F-ing right.
(and learn to use the quote function, ****-for-brains)
:rolleyes:
Pete,
NOT everything in my post is directed towards you. If you didn’t write it, it wasn’t directed at you.
It’s nice to speak to someone who apparently feels the same way about TCMA, or at least close to it.
Again, no disrespect intended, I’m just passionate about this subject. I did not feel this way 10, 7 or 5 years ago. I thought forms were the sh1t and although I always hit pads and sparred, I did not train like I do today - with a BJJ black belt and with MMA in mind.
I am happy to train my Kung-Fu in a ‘live’ manner. One of my major ‘axes’ is simply that I don’t know if KF was EVER trained in a ‘live’ manner, at least not by 95 of all the TCMA people over the years. But with no empiracal evidence, we all buy into the idea that TCMA guys were better 70 years ago. Did the guys 70 years ago think the same thing? Did they cling to these old legends the same way we do today? If that is true, when were the guys the best? 300 years ago?
I think that THIS generation will become the best. I think each generation is improving. I think we also get MORE AND MORE waste products in the arts as well, but there are probably more people today that can kick ass with the respective martial art than at any other point in history. Don’t you agree??
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772811]I think you’ve been smoking something ‘organic.’ Your grasp of history and fact is risible
Reply]
Ok there Bub…meanwhile there are 80 year old members of the Zowie tribe that can rip up to tree tops like it’s nothing, and the mid 20’s researchers studying them need frik’n ratcheting gear and take as much as 20 minutes to reach the canopy… :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but can he wipe his @$$ without getting sh1t on his hand? Can he use a pencil? Can he drive a car? Of course not!
WTF is your point? He lives and hunts in the trees! Of course he can climb them fast…
As Tom Cruise says…‘You’re so Glib.’
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772829]
But with no empiracal evidence, we all buy into the idea that TCMA guys were better 70 years ago. Did the guys 70 years ago think the same thing? Did they cling to these old legends the same way we do today? If that is true, when were the guys the best? 300 years ago? [/quote]
I think the martial media out there feeds the myths also. We like to blame individuals but you have to look at the culture also. The messages we are exposed to over and over again.
How many people have watched the Wu Xia movies and been influenced by them?
I hate to say it but I think kung fu magazine, inside kung fu and the like feed into this too.
Kung fu magazine promotes people as masters of such and such style and reprints these myths without question. People read that and see it as fact. Hell they even print stuff about lin kong jing which is complete bull$hit.
People that train hard today probably ARE better. Living in industrial societies we can be more specialized..in the old days people spent more time just sustaining their existence.
FP
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772827]Right. Unfortunatly, if the Jungle Amazon gets his little toe infected, unless he has a penicillin plant nearby (HA HA), he’s probably gonna be dead. How’s that for progress??
AND, where is the proof of these 80 year old amazons (and beyond, as you said)? Easy to say, please submit some proof of what you say, the name of a tribe perhaps? An author for reference? If not, it’s just babble..[/QUOTE]
In the course of looking up that cdc table, I ran across a little blurb that said average life expectancy 200 years ago was 30!!!.
I also ran across commentary that most folks don’t take “infant mortality” into account.
Another blurb was that fewer that 5% of Egyptians would reach age 65…
Don’t know.
Don’t care.
Don’t live there.
It is entirely possible that there are some few 80 yr old Amazonians that probably give the proof of the term “statistical outlier”.
Don’t know/live/care re that, either.
Here, today, it’s got a lot to do with society/economics/etc and how the combination gives more goods/resources to support more people “better”/longer.
(“on average” and actually)
“Intellectually”, I could probably “make a case” for with-holding modern medical technology/care in the name of “survival of the fittest”… and it would certainly “fit” with some of the “greenies” concerns about “solving” the problems of “overpopulation”.
Anyway. that “penicillin plant” is actually a form of mold… and some jungle medicine man may have discovered that or even “something better”… maybe.
I’m not seeing any suddenly burgeoning Amazon population growth…
Although most of the apparent burgeoning IS going on in some few borderline Third World countries for “the traditional reasons”… having lots of family around to take care of the elders in their dotage.
The only “problem” is that their infrastructure is largely unable to supply the necessary resources for that growing population.
[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;772842]In the course of looking up that cdc table, I ran across a little blurb that said average life expectancy 200 years ago was 30!!!.
I also ran across commentary that most folks don’t take “infant mortality” into account. [/quote]
Yeah I think infant mortality in the first year used to be like 80% mostly due to infectious diseases.
Originally Posted by Lama Pai Sifu
A little contradictory, don’t you think?
Yah very
Why not put your theories to the test then?
That should be a normal part of any MA training… if it isn’t wtf? Why would someone go to that school?
Have you or your students compete in a NHB/MMA competition.
People do, its just not publicized. The fact is that most people who are interested in fighting in MMA and NHB aren’t interested in “kung fu” schools. “Kung Fu” fighters do go to NHB fights.. and Thai Matches and San Shao matches. Its not that common, and often the outcome isn’t so hot. Sometimes it is.. it really depends on the person, the style and the training schedule. The “kung fu” fighting looks like NHB, MMA , Thai fighting with a few differences.
Its just easier to train in BJJ/MT/Wrestling schools if your goal is MMA. Honestly to be as tough as nails like the people I have talked to (real life) … you have to commit the time and effort (combined with a quality instructor) on the same level as Pro MMA fighters.. we are Americans we like the 1 hr two times a week training schedule. Some people just aren’t “meant” to fight MMA (too many possible reasons to name).
I love the fact that most Kung fu Schools teach Tiger crane , monkey crap. Its wonderful that most kung fu schools are basically out of date dance schools.. I love the deep breathing “chi-kung”. Whats the big deal? Its called survival of the fittest. If you believe in the myth of shaolin, I prefer you wear the goofy looking Kung Fu uniform so I can tell you apart from the normal people. Yah, I was one of them in my teens.. but I grew up. If I see another adult walking around wearing those ******* pajamas, making animal sounds and dancing like a drunken snakes…
Come on, really… Every MA has the BS .. .its just that CMA has a very high quantity of BS. You can’t tell me you haven’t come across the Mcdojo BJJ , JKD, Muy Thai , ect.. schools? Its evolution, let the deep breathing dancers have their fun, and allow everyone else the opportunity to laugh at them.
Originally Posted by lkfmdc
Heck, ask some Wing Chun people about the correct way to do Biu Jee
HEY! there is only one authority on Bill G, and that is grand master Brian. It is done using the snake in the eagle shadow stance. Remind me to show you it one day.
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772829]Pete,
NOT everything in my post is directed towards you. If you didn’t write it, it wasn’t directed at you. [/quote]
Didn’t think it was, so stop awreddy.
No harm, no foul.
There were a couple that might have been “personal”, but the overall tone was not, so that “over-rode” any consternation I might have been able to “manufacture”… didn’t even think of it.
It’s nice to speak to someone who apparently feels the same way about TCMA, or at least close to it.
I’d say “close” is probably “right”, although there ARE lots of points of outright agreement.
Again, no disrespect intended, I’m just passionate about this subject.
AWRIGHT AWREDDY! :rolleyes:
So I’m an effin’ SENIOR! :eek:
Stop rubbin’ it in!
I did not feel this way 10, 7 or 5 years ago. I thought forms were the sh1t and although I always hit pads and sparred, I did not train like I do today - with a BJJ black belt and with MMA in mind.
You might be amazed to know just how I felt 29 years ago…
As for those forms… perhaps there’s someone somewhere who can show/tell
(if not “teach”) you “something about them”.
There once was a certain SPM Master who had an herb store with an unusual line of text in his window…
I am happy to train my Kung-Fu in a ‘live’ manner. One of my major ‘axes’ is simply that I don’t know if KF was EVER trained in a ‘live’ manner, at least not by 95% of all the TCMA people over the years.
In the course of my training/learning, I’ve run across 3 major “insults”/“disparagements” for TCMA “hands” (which included “sets”/“forms”)… “too many flowers”,“no use”, and “dead”… the implicit understanding was that their opposite was not only “desirable”, but mandatory… otherwise, you didn’t have sh!t!
True KF was ALWAYS trained “live”… if you could “get” the training in the first place.
THEN it was a “simple matter” if Yuan Fen (aka “fortune”?) would allow you to “click” with that particular Master/circumstance to actually “get it”… aka “make it your own”.
IME, 5% would be extremely “optimistic”.
We’re talking about the MA equivalent of graduating “Magna Cum Laude” from a top flight school and then being able to turn around and actually “hack it” in “the real world”. (which was actually the purpose in the first place).
OTOH, IME, somebody who “only” had 50% (ok,“some decent percentage”)(“like” a Bachelor’s or Master’s?) of “it” can be pretty d@mned good in their own right.
But with no empiracal evidence, we all buy into the idea that TCMA guys were better 70 years ago. Did the guys 70 years ago think the same thing? Did they cling to these old legends the same way we do today? If that is true, when were the guys the best? 300 years ago?
I didn’t hit your 50-70 year line… my TCMA only goes back 45 or so years.
My western and western-imported stuff (with a smattering of Shotokan) is over 50 years… Now, my TEACHERS’ experiences…
I thought you’d trained with someone who “went back a ways…”
I think that THIS generation will become the best. I think each generation is improving.
It’s still possible.
“I’ll believe it when I see it…”
I think I’m likely to start seeing it when today’s practitioners can invariably show decent basics. If they can’t do that, then there isn’t much hope for “anything more”.
I think we also get MORE AND MORE waste products in the arts as well…
Consumerism uber alles.
Consuming “stuff”/“sh!t” invariably leaves “more sh!t”/“waste products” .
but there are probably more people today that can kick ass with the respective martial art than at any other point in history. Don’t you agree??
In absolute numbers?
Yessss…
Taken as a percentage, I’m not so sure that it’s “any better” than “before”.
There’s even some possibility that the percentage is lower, since there are an awful lot of Mc-Dojos/Dojangs/whatever that wouldn’t have survived in a less litigious society with a correspondingly lower level of law enforcement.
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772776]I get your meaning, but you obviously have missed mine. And analogies about fruit, a silly philosophical rim-job, futune-cookie logic and PC discussions are EXACTLY what’s wrong about TCMA today.
“Uh, yeah, you really got me there…how on earth could I put down preservation when I’m teaching techniques that are preserved? HHmmmm.”
Dummy.
And yes, I call you a ‘dummy’. Not because you are an idiot, although you may very well be, but because you are trying to be cute - while alas, you are not. I also called you a dummy because I felt like it and I have read many of your other posts. They are definatly ‘dummy-like’ and wreak of Shaolin-Do. And no, I do not have to be PC.[/QUOTE]I have no idea why it is you took offense ,nor why you would think I was trying to be cute either. Whatever. If you want to get your panties all bunched in a knot then go ahead. I used to have more respect for you, until now.
Yeah maybe I was being funny but not at your expense . I did it to prove and make a point.
You think inside the box too much, just like the rest of these guys. Maybe if you did not have your head up your @$$ you might see the world in a whole new light.
I know a lot of these guys think you are an @$$hole .Now I am beginning to see why.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772798][I]I think TCMA’s step towards the future should be be through San Da and through Shuai Jiao. I think EVERY kwoon should teach ALIVE San Da and Shuai Jiao and compete. Just imagine if EVERY SINGLE Kung Fu school in the world taught San Da and Shuai Jiao and competed in those events, think of how many fighters would come from CMA backrounds instead of Muay Thai and wrestling. Just imagine how good TCMA tournaments would be if it was San Da, Shuai Jiao and Push hands instead of forms.
On the subject, watch Cung Le’s win over Tony Fryklund this past weekend. I know, he didn’t get taken down, but he displayed many TMA techniques and proved that they can be pulled off in an MMA setting if trained ALIVE.[/I]
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Well said. That is the real Old school ways of Kung Fu…not the modern form based curriculum’s! If everyone just goes back to the roots, Kung Fu would hold it’s own against anyone…if not outright dominate.
We have all the tools, it’s just a matter of shifting the focus back to when it was taught right.[/QUOTE]I have to tatally to agree with this . The idea that the way TMA is now is the way it was taught 500, 1000, or 1500 years ago is a joke.
Quite frankly I believe that it would be more like the way MMA fighters train. With a few things added and a few things left out.
I personally train people using modern scientific data and traditional training methods . With minor modifications. Many of the “new” inovations in personal training have been around for centuries.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;772671]syas whom? according to several of the guys on here, kung fu used to be trained in a format similar to mma.[/QUOTE]
Like i said in my post, if you are of that opinion, then you are best off just going and doing MMA. Several have indeed done that, and while i dont agree with them, i can respect their views. However it makes no sense to train TCMA unless you feel it gives skills/benefits that other forms of training dont deliver, and i would emplore anyone who does train traditionally and yet lacks confidence in their methods to either put more faith in the TCMA way of doing things, or go off and take MMA. Are we so afraid of being ‘wrong’ that we have to sit in the middle and not get the benefits of either?