Kung-Fu and MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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This thread reaks of the “95 of MMA followers are top fighters.” fallacy.

There is no doubt that there are schools out there that don’t cater to pro fighters. But that subsection of martial arts is, as it is, because of its practitioners. There are a good number of substandard practitioners on both sides of the fence. So if this is all based on whether sub standard student “A” can beat substandard student “B”, all I can say is “so what!??!” There will always be the substandard and the talented.

This “Dead” trend is relatively recent. If I’m to follow the “aliveness” buzzword to its full meaning then I’ve definitely been in an alive school. Even to the mid eighties, at least in Miami, if you entered a MA school you were expected to have your ass handed to you on a daily basis. So one can’t blame the styles/methods/training/etc of the talented just because the substandard people in the same styles aren’t fighting. In other words, its the standards that changed, not the styles. The whole lowering of standards to get more students happens universally. I would even dare to say that TCMA started to show signs of decay in the late 70’s and got really bad by the end of the 80’s, not 70 years ago.

The nutrition and science bent doesn’t really apply either. The same number of substandard to talented people still applies. We might have made strides in hygiene and medicine but the quality of the foods we eat in general aren’t that superior. Not to mention the air we breath is many more times polluted then ever. The average American teenager still makes fast food their #1 food source. They drink carbonated beverages like its going out of style. When was the last time you drank out of the tap in this country? Top fighters may not eat this way, but we aren’t talking about them if this is a general consensus.

To me the 800 lbs gorilla that is being overlooked is the utter disregard for the staggering NUMBERS of people that live and have lived doing MA that are being ignored. To show a video of some dude doing a street dance and make that a hallmark for an entire country and all time is extremely myopic. I’m sure somebody, and quite a few others, in 1927 china had enough to eat and were kick ass fighters.

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[QUOTE=cjurakpt;772717]well, a great example would be Musashi - he was the real deal when it came to fighting, and he also gained awakening using his practice as a vehicle - but as a result, he stopped using a live blade and switched to wooden ones - so in a sense, the killing took a back seat, although it evidently didn’t have a negative impact on his ability to win

I mean, how many kids who have grown up on the “mean streets” have gotten into MA and turned their lives around? for them, the arts became a way to temper their…well, temper? for them, in a way, it was never about fighting, more like finding a mthod to channel themselves

I guess my point is that you can’t climb two mountains at the same time, at least not in my experience - I am not denying the possibility that someone might be able to a great fighter and also use the art as a means of self-development, just that one eventually precludes the other, if you think about it: I mean, it is a bit paradoxical learning to fight so as to learn not to fight - as long as you are at one end of the spectrum, you can’t be at the other at the same time

BTW, while we may disagree, please know that I appreciate your perspective and the thoughtful manner in which you relay it[/QUOTE]

Okay, now I think I understand your point; the paradox of fighting vs. self-development. My gut feeling is that the paradox actually illustrates my argument. One might start out at one end of the spectrum, fighting, and progres towards self-development on the other end and therefore Kung Fu can be about more then fighting. If we leave it there then we could be done with it on a simplistic level however you bring up a very interesting point in the paradox question.

So now, the question is slightly different. Can one become a great fighter and at the same time move along the path of self-development. Here’s my take and I suspect many folks will take it as a cop out. In a nutshell yes, however there is no way to demonstrate it because of the paradox. Someone who moves along that path will learn to fight, and do everything in their power not to fight. If in fact they do happen to fight it will never be a big public display because that would be against their developed nature. Nowadays, it seems that it’s the big splash that everyone believes is important. The quiet unassuming things are ignored.

That’s my take on it. I’m not really sure we’re disagreeing at all, we’re just trying to answer a paradox and that’s inhererantly unanswerable. Regarding my thoughtful manner…thanks. I think I might create another screen name where I can just call everyone names and use slightly spelling altered curse words because I don’t want to miss all the fun <G>

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If we look at the “legends” of the past and try to “live off them” we do ourselves and our chosen systems a disservice.
Learn from them?
Sure.
But make your own “legends”.

This is, in many ways, an even more vital lesson for the current and next generation of MMA fighters and practioners that are riding the wave of others.

Most “names” that are with us from the past were “freaks”, be it the Wong feo Hungs of Kung fu or the Marcicano’s of Boxing or the Rickson’s of MMA.

Fact is, no matter what MA YOU chose, it doesn’t matter what OTHERS have done with it, its about what YOU are gonna do with it.

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[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;772853]I have no idea why it is you took offense ,nor why you would think I was trying to be cute either. Whatever. If you want to get your panties all bunched in a knot then go ahead. I used to have more respect for you, until now.

Yeah maybe I was being funny but not at your expense . I did it to prove and make a point.

[B]You think inside the box too much, just like the rest of these guys. Maybe if you did not have your head up your @$$ you might see the world in a whole new light.

I know a lot of these guys think you are an @$$hole .Now I am beginning to see why[/B].[/QUOTE]

Aw, my feelings are extremely hurt, Shaolin-Do. I would use your real name, but I believe that you are another ANONYMOUS Shaolin-Do’er.

And I think too much INSIDE the box? LOL. You are cute. And funny too.

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Cjurakpt-I think it is not only possible to “climb two mountains at the same time,” but you cannot train to be a fighter without self-development-albiet not David Carradine type. What I mean is this-People do not,will not, can not face their own weaknesses and innadequacies (sp?) Fat broads in spandex,comb-overs, bad toupe’s, short fat bald guys trying on tuxedo’s saying to themselves, “Bond-James Bond,” people who let themselves go, and go, and go, yet make excuses for themselves, the list goes on and on. People quit MA because they are faced on a day to day basis, right there for not only all to see, but for THEM to see, that they are not perfect, they will have trouble learning things, feel awkward, innadequate. When they quit, they will not hold themselves accountable, but blame the teacher, or their coddling mommy will.
We as Martial Artists, not only look at ourselves in the mirror, but place ourselves under the microscope, and when we do not like what we see, we work, sweat,drill, suffer, and not only overcome these weaknesses, but we turn them into strengths. Fighters MUST do this in order to become fighters.
If this isn’t personal development, strengthening of the spirit, will, focus, then what is? " A person that Knows himself…" “We are unique in the fact that we create ourselves. Through years of pain, suffering, denial, we forge our bodies in the fire of our wills!” (I love that line!)
Chris-I know you are well-versed in Buddhist /Taoist/Chan philosophy, so I am sure you can find numerous quotes that are describing exactly my point.
I think the problem arises when people mistake this Warrior-Warrior Path connection for something else, and have been raised on David Carradine, Granola,and political correctness.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;772903]Cjurakpt-I think it is not only possible to “climb two mountains at the same time,” but you cannot train to be a fighter without self-development-albiet not David Carradine type. What I mean is this-People do not,will not, can not face their own weaknesses and innadequacies (sp?) Fat broads in spandex,comb-overs, bad toupe’s, short fat bald guys trying on tuxedo’s saying to themselves, “Bond-James Bond,” people who let themselves go, and go, and go, yet make excuses for themselves, the list goes on and on. People quit MA because they are faced on a day to day basis, right there for not only all to see, but for THEM to see, that they are not perfect, they will have trouble learning things, feel awkward, innadequate. When they quit, they will not hold themselves accountable, but blame the teacher, or their coddling mommy will.
We as Martial Artists, not only look at ourselves in the mirror, but place ourselves under the microscope, and when we do not like what we see, we work, sweat,drill, suffer, and not only overcome these weaknesses, but we turn them into strengths. Fighters MUST do this in order to become fighters.
If this isn’t personal development, strengthening of the spirit, will, focus, then what is? " A person that Knows himself…" “We are unique in the fact that we create ourselves. Through years of pain, suffering, denial, we forge our bodies in the fire of our wills!” (I love that line!)
Chris-I know you are well-versed in Buddhist /Taoist/Chan philosophy, so I am sure you can find numerous quotes that are describing exactly my point.
I think the problem arises when people mistake this Warrior-Warrior Path connection for something else, and have been raised on David Carradine, Granola,and political correctness.[/QUOTE]

Well said.
MA is a life long pursuit for many, myself included and as such, as with anything long term, there are up’s and downs, periods of high activity and low activity.
There are times we kick ass and other times we get our asses kicked and no one knows better about that than fighters.
Outside the hype, most fighters are humble and just plain nice guys, I can count on one hand all the a-holes I know that are fighters and those are usually “young and stupid” or just plain A-holes that would be that way regardless of what they did, MA or otherwise.

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[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;772854]I have to tatally to agree with this . The idea that the way TMA is now is the way it was taught 500, 1000, or 1500 years ago is a joke.

Quite frankly I believe that it would be more like the way MMA fighters train. With a few things added and a few things left out.:wink:

I personally train people using modern scientific data and traditional training methods . With minor modifications. Many of the “new” inovations in personal training have been around for centuries.[/QUOTE]

His post was in response to a post about all CMA schools cimpeting in shuai chiao and san da. In another thread, you stated that competition is ego based and is not the goal of tma, but now you suddenly think differently?

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[QUOTE=sunfist;772859]Like i said in my post, if you are of that opinion, then you are best off just going and doing MMA. Several have indeed done that, and while i dont agree with them, i can respect their views. However it makes no sense to train TCMA unless you feel it gives skills/benefits that other forms of training dont deliver, and i would emplore anyone who does train traditionally and yet lacks confidence in their methods to either put more faith in the TCMA way of doing things, or go off and take MMA. Are we so afraid of being ‘wrong’ that we have to sit in the middle and not get the benefits of either?[/QUOTE]

I thnk you missed my point. What I am saying is many of the guys here say that in the old days, the traditional way of training was more akin to the mma guys of today - many style had only a handful of forms, if any at all. They focused on drilling and combat - akin to the way mma train today.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;772878]If we look at the “legends” of the past and try to “live off them” we do ourselves and our chosen systems a disservice.
Learn from them?
Sure.
But make your own “legends”.

This is, in many ways, an even more vital lesson for the current and next generation of MMA fighters and practioners that are riding the wave of others.

Most “names” that are with us from the past were “freaks”, be it the Wong feo Hungs of Kung fu or the Marcicano’s of Boxing or the Rickson’s of MMA.

Fact is, no matter what MA YOU chose, it doesn’t matter what OTHERS have done with it, its about what YOU are gonna do with it.[/QUOTE]

beautiful…

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;772925]beautiful…[/QUOTE]

Sorry about the typos…I really have to learn NOT to rush my posts !

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;772924]I thnk you missed my point. What I am saying is many of the guys here say that in the old days, the traditional way of training was more akin to the mma guys of today - many style had only a handful of forms, if any at all. They focused on drilling and combat - akin to the way mma train today.[/QUOTE]

A valid “fact” missed by most.
Common sense was more common then, your life depended on it more than nowadays.
Fighter A sees a move he has never seen before ( triangle choke for example), he sees it being effective so he goes out and gasps& learns it so that he can not only use it be know how to beat it.

Cross training in the techniques and principles of others systems ( if not in the systems themselves) was common place.
Why?
Because it made sense to do so.

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Re:

Since Lama Pai posted this based upon my post, I will say this, first of all my Tung Mo boxing is a fusion of several styles of Chinese martial arts linked together, actually the favorite techniques for me that I’ve grouped together to relieve me from the practice of the different styles.

Often times when sparring around with folks here in the bay area I found myself constantly switching styles on those I was sparring with and thus this was the inspiration for linking the techniques (talking about Mixed Martial Arts). No there is nothing new, the same old skills, yes a little restructuring, yes some of the movements have been grouped different I mean techiques from this style linked to that style so forth and on. For me this method has been very effective, like everyone else I’d like to think what i’m doing is the bomb but the reality is that the style and or technique isn’t it rather the person behind it.

Actually when it’s all said and done it’s about effective technique and practicality as far as fighting is concerned and this is what I’ve tried to accomplish by consolidating various techniques that works well for me.

In closing I tell you like they told me in Hong Kong, “It doesn’t really matter where it came from, or who established it, the question is can you use it in a fight”.

Troy

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;772928]A valid “fact” missed by most.
Common sense was more common then, your life depended on it more than nowadays.
Fighter A sees a move he has never seen before ( triangle choke for example), he sees it being effective so he goes out and gasps& learns it so that he can not only use it be know how to beat it.

Cross training in the techniques and principles of others systems ( if not in the systems themselves) was common place.
Why?
Because it made sense to do so.[/QUOTE]
what’s the history of the triangle choke anyway?

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[QUOTE=diego;772987]what’s the history of the triangle choke anyway?[/QUOTE]

Well…according to Kyuzo Mifune’s Book, The Canon of Judo, he “developed” it.
Wither that us true or not, I don’t know.
I know that it wasn’t the Gracies as was claimed at one point.
I think I saw an old wrestling pic once, a B&W sketch and it showed the triangle choke, I don’t recall of it was the choke or the arm bar variation and how old the pic was so…

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;772921]His post was in response to a post about all CMA schools cimpeting in shuai chiao and san da. In another thread, you stated that competition is ego based and is not the goal of tma, but now you suddenly think differently?[/QUOTE]I do not think where competition decides whether someone loses or wins is beneficial. It is not about winning and losing . It is about what you gain from the experience on a mental and spiritual level.

And I understand the competitors mind for the most part . But I believe that the money, fame , animosity, negative emotions toward other fighters, etc. is tooo prevalent in these matches.

And I also understand that these guys get a certain amount of what I said previously , but if you think that the money fame, ego, negative emotions toward other fighters,etc. is not the largest motivating factors in these matches you are mistaken.

Maybe at first it is not but when you start climbing that ladder, more times than not, this is what happens.

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[QUOTE=tattooedpunk;772989]I do not think where competition decides whether someone loses or wins is beneficial. It is not about winning and losing . It is about what you gain from the experience on a mental and spiritual level.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that’s what losers tell themselves to feel better about their inability to win at anything.

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[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;772989]I do not think where competition decides whether someone loses or wins is beneficial. It is not about winning and losing . It is about what you gain from the experience on a mental and spiritual level.

And I understand the competitors mind for the most part . But I believe that the money, fame , animosity, negative emotions toward other fighters, etc. is tooo prevalent in these matches.

And I also understand that these guys get a certain amount of what I said previously , but if you think that the money fame, ego, negative emotions toward other fighters,etc. is not the largest motivating factors in these matches you are mistaken.

Maybe at first it is not but when you start climbing that ladder, more times than not, this is what happens.[/QUOTE]

More often than not, these guys don’t hate eachother. drama = ticket sales. Let’s say I was a pro mma fighter. Can you imagine the money to be made off of a grudge type thing between me and rampage since we are from the same city, went to school together and trained at two different schools - which at the time were the only two mma type schools in the area? play the grudge like we don’t like eachother. In reality though, we barely knew eachother. After one match I had, my opponent came to my school a few months later to attend a seminar we were having. He was actually bouncing at a club my coach also bounced at at the time. outside of the ring, we are all cool with eachother.

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san-kaku jime is a ne-waza technique from Judo (Triangle)

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;772992]More often than not, these guys don’t hate eachother. drama = ticket sales. Let’s say I was a pro mma fighter. Can you imagine the money to be made off of a grudge type thing between me and rampage since we are from the same city, went to school together and trained at two different schools - which at the time were the only two mma type schools in the area? play the grudge like we don’t like eachother. In reality though, we barely knew eachother. After one match I had, my opponent came to my school a few months later to attend a seminar we were having. He was actually bouncing at a club my coach also bounced at at the time. outside of the ring, we are all cool with eachother.[/QUOTE]I know this , but the negative vibe is not neccesary IMHO.
There is no need for that. Drama is so prevalent in our lives anyway why do we need more? Again I understand it is about selling tickets= Money.

This brings up something else I was thinking about. Imagine how much money Dana White and the other corperate guys are making as opposed to the fighters, I certaininly would not want someone making more money off of me than I make, not failing to mention the type of physical , spiritual, and mental trauma that is aquired by doing so.