Kung-Fu and MMA

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 24, 2007, 10:17pm

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;772753][B]Progress and preservation . Well I think that progress and preservation are both equally important . Progression is the way to preserve what it is that you already have or else you would not be able to preserve it ,correct??

Now do you not preserve the teachings of your masters Sifu Parella??

I mean think about it, how could you not have your school and your students practicing and promoting your art if you were not preserving it and how have you preserved it??? Through progression.[/B]

If you were just always progressing and just taking what the flavor of the month was and leaving what it is that you have already learned behind ,then eventually what you have now will not be what you had before and so you could not claim to possess or teach it. Correct??

The arts are always evolving ,adding to, and taking way, just like recipes.

However just because you take out sugar and use apple sauce does not mean that you can not put sugar back in or that it ( sugar) was never there.

Get my meaning??

Just in case you do not, I am refering to Groundfighting in CMA.[/QUOTE]

I get your meaning, but you obviously have missed mine. And analogies about fruit, a silly philosophical rim-job, futune-cookie logic and PC discussions are EXACTLY what’s wrong about TCMA today.

“Uh, yeah, you really got me there…how on earth could I put down preservation when I’m teaching techniques that are preserved? HHmmmm.”

Dummy.

And yes, I call you a ‘dummy’. Not because you are an idiot, although you may very well be, but because you are trying to be cute - while alas, you are not. I also called you a dummy because I felt like it and I have read many of your other posts. They are definatly ‘dummy-like’ and wreak of Shaolin-Do. And no, I do not have to be PC.

lkfmdc · June 24, 2007, 10:34pm

a wise man at Shaolin once wrote the greatest riddle of all time

since the riddle was written, fighters in China sought its meaning

Only those who understood its meaning opened up the secrets to the shaolin art

today, that riddle and the answer are almost lost

but I feel now is the time to share it with you all

but it can not leave this forum

promise?

–

the wise man said;

how much wood
could a wood chuck
chuck
if a wood chuck
could chuck
wood

the answer, my disciples, is…

(to be continued)

SifuAbel · June 24, 2007, 11:39pm

[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772774]
I’ll tell you what I DO KNOW, is that 50-70 years ago, they didn’t have the training equipment or the nutritional advantages we have today. I would venture a guess that MA people of today are MUCH stronger and punch and kick WAY harder than some guy who lived at the end of the Ching Dynasty…[/QUOTE]

How do you know this?

Fu-Pow · June 24, 2007, 11:45pm

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;772725]

Mike is probably referencing “Chinese martial arts training manuals” by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo, ever TCMA person should read this and meditate on it’s contents[/QUOTE]

Just ordered it, should make some good summer reading.

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 24, 2007, 11:46pm

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;772783]How do you know this?[/QUOTE]

Which part, Rudy?

The equipment part? You can’t be serious. Bags, Mitts, Matts, Weights (yes, they had rudementry weights, but not the diverse types of today - and even if they existed, who is to say that Mr. Chan from Guangdong in 1925 had access to them?)

Besides, I’ve been training for over 25 years, and the equipment you can train with today BLOWS away the stuff I used as a teenager/ealy twenties..

Or how about nutrition?

You can’t possibly believe that a diet of rice and vegatable, at a time when animals protein was relativly more expensive than it is today, would produce stronger people? Don’t forget, people in southern China - uh, not wealthy. Check it out, read a book or look it up on the web. Or better yet - go to CHINA (been there, got the t-shirt) and visit the people in Guangdong. THEY ARE STILL POOR and SKINNY! Or learn to speak Chinese and have them tell you about their parents or their grandparents and how KF people had to beg or put on shows for food. I don’t just know this from books or hearsay, I’ve been there a few times already, and talked to 85 year old people who were alive when guys like Lam Sai Wing were teaching, etc. The majority of these guys could barely get one meal of protein in a day.

Not to mention that most of these Chinese people from ‘whatever’ years ago, were like 5’5" at best and about 120lbs. Go figure. Could these guys compare, power-wise with the fighters of today? Hardly.

Since I’m not sure what part you are challenging/inquiring about, I’ll give you an opportunity to elaborate.

But seriously, think - before you write about some legendary guy or some myth that no one can prove, about guys killing horses with one blow or masters chopping down trees with a slicing palm…

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 24, 2007, 11:51pm

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;772784]Just ordered it, should make some good summer reading.[/QUOTE]

Great book, you’ll love and hate TCMA as it is today - even more.

RD_S_Alias_1A · June 24, 2007, 11:58pm

And how do YOU know what was happening 50-70 years ago? How do you know what the ‘roots’ were?

Reply]
I don’t really care about 50-70 years ago, but in my research into my own style for the last 10 years it has become VERY apparent that it was not taught with a forms heavy curriculum, it was basics, conditioning and heavy application work + more basics. Granted a lot of that was weapons being a military style, BUT the formula was all about direct, to the point training. The forms were for the trainers (Ming dynasty…forms for my style were scarce prior) to keep thier class structure and keep a standardize curriculum.

It wasn’t untill the advent of commercial schools for the general public that it started to be taught in a heavy form choreography manor.

What if 90% of all the stories about training back then were untrue? Myths, legends…

Reply]
I highly doubt it…I think all the stories of guys learning 100 forms before they could learn an app are fake.

I’ll tell you what I DO KNOW, is that 50-70 years ago, they didn’t have the training equipment or the nutritional advantages we have today. I would venture a guess that MA people of today are MUCH stronger and punch and kick WAY harder than some guy who lived at the end of the Ching Dynasty…

Reply]
I have been doing a lot of online research into the Old Time Strong men of the late 1800’s early 1900’s, and guess what…theses guy were lifting literally SICK amounts of weights that would make the steroid pumped Iron Pumping power lifters today cringe…all with NO steroids, and no knowledge of nutrition other than eating lots of Fruits and veggies with thier meats.

Oh, and BTW back then ALL food was organically grown (because they hadn’t invented any other way yet), so they probably ate better than you do even WITH all your modern Knowledge.

You know, if you really think about it, our species has been around for roughly 200,000 years…you honestly think it took until the last few seconds of our existence to figure out how to train right? Modern science has done little more than Explain why things work, than given us any super training methods that make us Supermen compared to the athletes 100 years ago.

boshea · June 25, 2007, 12:01am

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;772783]
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772774]And how do YOU know what was happening 50-70 years ago? How do you know what the ‘roots’ were?

What if 90% of all the stories about training back then were untrue? Myths, legends…

I’ll tell you what I DO KNOW, is that 50-70 years ago, they didn’t have the training equipment or the nutritional advantages we have today. I would venture a guess that MA people of today are MUCH stronger and punch and kick WAY harder than some guy who lived at the end of the Ching Dynasty…[/QUOTE]

How do you know this?[/QUOTE]

In fairness, he did say he would “venture a guess,” which is not quite the same thing as a statement of fact.

What he said he does know is that we have better training equipment and nutritional advantages today over what we had 50-70 years ago, which is probably partly true. Certainly nutrition has come a long way since then.

-b

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 25, 2007, 12:05am

[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772787]

I have been doing a lot of online research into the Old Time Strong men of the late 1800’s early 1900’s, and guess what…theses guy were lifting literally SICK amounts of weights that would make the steroid pumped Iron Pumping power lifters today cringe…all with NO steroids, and no knowledge of nutrition other than eating lots of Fruits and veggies with thier meats.
Oh, and BTW back then ALL food was organically grown (because they hadn’t invented any other way yet), so they probably ate better than you do even WITH all your modern Knowledge.

You know, if you really think about it, our species has been around for roughly 200,000 years…you honestly think it took until the last few seconds of our existence to figure out how to train right? Modern science has done little more than Explain why things work, than given us any super training methods that make us Supermen compared to the athletes 100 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Who said anything about Old Time Strong Men. I’ve done and read about kettle ball training and can probably do a few feats of strength that would make your draw drop. But we are talking about TCMA’sts here - the grandmasters of our current styles, of whom there are exceedingly tall tales about their legendary feats…

They barely could afford protein. And organic? Remember, I’ve been to southern China, YOU STILL CAN’T DRINK THE WATER. EVEN THE LOCALS DON’T. IT HAS TO BE BOILED FIRST. They’re lucky that they didn’t die of a disease or some crazy bacteria from eating the quote “organic food”, lol

AND WHEN WILL YOU GET IN LINE WITH FORUM ETIQUETTE ALREADY? READING YOUR POSTS ARE LABORIOUS ENOUGH, WITHOUT HAVING TO DECIFER “WHO WROTE WHAT?”

And if you think all those stories are true, YOU too are living in a dream world…lol

bakxierboxer · June 25, 2007, 12:12am

[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;772774]And how do YOU know what was happening 50-70 years ago? How do you know what the ‘roots’ were? [/quote]

It’s possible that anyone really interested could find someone from that ancient-history era and do something unusual like… ask them?

What if 90% of all the stories about training back then were untrue? Myths, legends…

Using your own figures… what about that other 10%?

I’ll tell you what I DO KNOW, is that 50-70 years ago, they didn’t have the training equipment or the nutritional advantages we have today.

True, although some of those advantages are simply due to the relative affluence of today’s societies… and it’s also worth noting that most of those advantages accrue to those in the so-called “First World” economies.
It’s entirely possible that some folks in those “old days” were affluent enough to afford to eat and live well enough to approximate a good many of our modern-day advantages.

Hey! wait a minute! It certainly seems that, from time to time, some few athletes from “Third World” countries still manage to give “First Worlders” “a run for their money”.

I would venture a guess that MA people of today are MUCH stronger and punch and kick WAY harder than some guy who lived at the end of the Ching Dynasty…

Good/educated guess and…
Probably true… “in general”/“on average”… even taller/bigger in many cases.
Again, as with wealth/affluence, these are all RELATIVE abilities… and probably ought to be evaluated relative to the rest of the population AT THAT TIME.

It was not all that long ago that living to 40 years of age was considered to be a relatively long life, and even so, some lived FAR longer than that.

Given such variance, it’s equally possible that some percentage of those “ancients” had many of the physical capabilities of today’s top-flight athletes.
It’s even possible that some of them were TCMA practitioners.

lkfmdc · June 25, 2007, 12:13am

Do you think these 1927 Chinese kung fu practicioners

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtz0AJzVYPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5XpUPbBmBc

Look like they are healthier, stronger, faster and better trained than today’s martial artist?

WinterPalm · June 25, 2007, 12:16am

The Brian Kennedy book is not bad. It is funny when he derides word of mouth as a method of transmission…his argument against it? There are no documented sources!! Some of what he does in an attempt to debunk many myths could be considered his own creations or modern myths.
However, the focus away from the airy-fairy floating through the clouds and dancing like a cable tv special to the nitty-gritty reality of TCMA is enjoyable to read about.

RD_S_Alias_1A · June 25, 2007, 12:20am

Certainly nutrition has come a long way since then.

Reply]
No it hasn’t…we just have bigger pills now…and we have to pay exorbitant prices for Organically grown food, which was ALL THEY HAD back then due to the fact that nothing else had been invented yet.

I really belive that the hwole superiority complex we alve about our modern ways is all an illusion.

Take my daughter for excample, when she was a competitve gymnast, we had the modern supplement jinkies, and we had my daughter who was fed NOTHING bout a pure organic diet that was heavy on raw fruites and veggies duringt he day, and as much organic meats for dinner.

The nutrition junkies NEVER developed ANY faster, or did ANY better, in ANY way than my daughter did. In fact must of them were scoring in the upper top 10, where as my Daughter almost always scored top 5 or better. This is a comparison of the SAME girls, on the SAME team, trained by the SAME coach for thier entire childhood in the SAME way. The only variable was the way the parents fed them.

Now, to add to that, we tried following the advice of the nutritionist, got her on the supplements and the smoothies and ed her according to the rules layed out and all that, and her scores DROPPED…and stayed dropped untill I put her back on the original diet recommended by her Old School Romanian coach who just did things the old way form her native country.

Infact, you had all these gyms with modern, state of the art facilities with on staff nutritionists, physical therapists and the latest, most advance knowledge available, and they could not touch my daughters team. That gap just grew, and grew once you started looking at the higher levels.

Another thing, even though we have all these modern advancements, regardless of nutritional system being used, Gymnasts are STILL considered to be, “Pound for Pound” the Strongest athletes on the planet of ANY sport.

Thier equipment consist of a skinny, leather covered length of wood on a stand, various bars supported by some pols, and some metal rings hanging form the ceiling on rope or strap and little else outside of a springy floor (Made of foam blocks and 4X8 length plywood crisscrossed in a couple of layers with a heavily padded carpet on top). They have no weight, machines, exercises balls, none of that stuff. It’s all pretty much about as bare bones basic as you can get.

Modern is NOT better…it’s just an illusion.

quickjab · June 25, 2007, 12:24am

San Shou/San Da and Shuai Jiao

I think TCMA’s step towards the future should be be through San Da and through Shuai Jiao. I think EVERY kwoon should teach ALIVE San Da and Shuai Jiao and compete. Just imagine if EVERY SINGLE Kung Fu school in the world taught San Da and Shuai Jiao and competed in those events, think of how many fighters would come from CMA backrounds instead of Muay Thai and wrestling. Just imagine how good TCMA tournaments would be if it was San Da, Shuai Jiao and Push hands instead of forms.

On the subject, watch Cung Le’s win over Tony Fryklund this past weekend. I know, he didn’t get taken down, but he displayed many TMA techniques and proved that they can be pulled off in an MMA setting if trained ALIVE.

RD_S_Alias_1A · June 25, 2007, 12:27am

It was not all that long ago that living to 40 years of age was considered to be a relatively long life, and even so, some lived FAR longer than that.

Reply]
Nonsense, there are PRE agricultural cultures in the Amazons that routinely live into their 80’s and beyond and show NONE of the modern diseases like hyper tension, heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc…There are also some in Borneo as well.

That whole 40 year life span is nothing but a crock of Sh!t to promote the wonders of modern medicine…it’s a marketing ploy that has become so ingrained that it is held as fact, when the truth is more the opposite. Modern times has LOWERED the over all heath of mankind considerably.

RD_S_Alias_1A · June 25, 2007, 12:31am

[I]I think TCMA’s step towards the future should be be through San Da and through Shuai Jiao. I think EVERY kwoon should teach ALIVE San Da and Shuai Jiao and compete. Just imagine if EVERY SINGLE Kung Fu school in the world taught San Da and Shuai Jiao and competed in those events, think of how many fighters would come from CMA backrounds instead of Muay Thai and wrestling. Just imagine how good TCMA tournaments would be if it was San Da, Shuai Jiao and Push hands instead of forms.

On the subject, watch Cung Le’s win over Tony Fryklund this past weekend. I know, he didn’t get taken down, but he displayed many TMA techniques and proved that they can be pulled off in an MMA setting if trained ALIVE.[/I]

Reply]
Well said. That is the real Old school ways of Kung Fu…not the modern form based curriculum’s! If everyone just goes back to the roots, Kung Fu would hold it’s own against anyone…if not outright dominate.

We have all the tools, it’s just a matter of shifting the focus back to when it was taught right.

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 25, 2007, 12:35am

[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;772790]It’s possible that anyone really interested could find someone from that ancient-history era and do something unusual like… ask them?
[/QUOTE]

I have. You probably missed the other post.

What about it? If all the stories are 90% inflated baloney, and it’s based on 10% fact…

What’s difference why?

And mentioning the whole thing about third world countries…I don’t see the relavance. There is a 4 year old kid in India, B. Sighn, have you heard of him? He can run 20 miles a day, 6 days a week. He runs for 6 hours straight. What does that prove? That there are bizarre anomolies in the world. Surely we can’t be assuming that all the founders of all the styles, and all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation guys were all ‘savantish’ with thier KF as well? Not so much..

It’s so funny. Why is it that no one sucked backed then? All these guys, all these masters are great. Even today’s generation? Where are all the guys how were the LAST guy to be accepted by so and so as a student, never practiced that much, and was basically the school hack? Are you saying this guy never taught anyone and just died off?
HA HA HA.
Sure he did. He’s actually the one who rushed right out to teach as soon as he gave his teach a big red envelope or when is teacher died. But he never told anyone he sucked. He just kept up the facade, pumped up his teachers image and taught a bunch of other people who became convinced that they were great too! LOL

You seem like a smart guy, do dont’ you see the fault in this logic (meaning yours, not mine)

And given what variance? You didn’t make a valid point. You are comparing lifespan to what? Increases in sports science and nutrition?

And no, I dont’ think there were too many guys that had today’s level of skill. I do think there were a lot stories about guys breaking rocks with their pinky and chi-blasting a guy from 10 feet away.

Funny thing though. 99% of today’s Heih Gung tricks are merely physics tricks, and can be learned by anyone in a matter of moments (Many of the old videos of the Guangdong team breaking rocks - watch how their done, the rock hits the other rock first) But if old masters 75 years ago could do amazing feats, why is it that no one else can? WAIT! Did they all die with the knowledge? Or wait, they had to train 12 hrs a day, meditating against a wall for 9 years - and no one is willing to do that today? (but they were 100 years ago?) How convienent…

Open your mind for a minute and think of the motivations and the situations which would cause people to make up, embellish or misinterpret the accomplishments of their masters? If you have trouble thinking about the past, think about the present; My master could do THIS, therefore, I’m sooo cool and you should train with me. I won’t tell you that I have no proof of this, and don’t know how to teach YOU to do this, but I’m still cool. Come train with me.

I’m not trying to beat you up Pete, don’t take it personal. I just have a real axe to grind regarding the myths and stories surrounding TCMA. I’m trying to teach my students how to really use CMA in today’s world. Not the fantasy world that 92% of other TCMA schools are living in.

Again, nothing personal.

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 25, 2007, 12:37am

[QUOTE=quickjab;772796]I think TCMA’s step towards the future should be be through San Da and through Shuai Jiao. I think EVERY kwoon should teach ALIVE San Da and Shuai Jiao and compete. Just imagine if EVERY SINGLE Kung Fu school in the world taught San Da and Shuai Jiao and competed in those events, think of how many fighters would come from CMA backrounds instead of Muay Thai and wrestling. Just imagine how good TCMA tournaments would be if it was San Da, Shuai Jiao and Push hands instead of forms.

On the subject, watch Cung Le’s win over Tony Fryklund this past weekend. I know, he didn’t get taken down, but he displayed many TMA techniques and proved that they can be pulled off in an MMA setting if trained ALIVE.[/QUOTE]

Good Post. I concur. I just think you should add MMA into the begining, unless you are suggesting that San Da and Shuai Jiao would help TCMA guys to transition into MMA…

bakxierboxer · June 25, 2007, 12:41am

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;772791]Do you think these 1927 Chinese kung fu practicioners

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtz0AJzVYPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5XpUPbBmBc

Look like they are healthier, stronger, faster and better trained than today’s martial artist?[/QUOTE]

Good choice for making your point.

I noticed that the titles of those videos called them “Street Spectacles”, meaning that they were “spectacular” in the sense that everyone “back then” could not do them.

As for what they did, a rather large percentage of today’s so highly advantaged martial artists can’t perform those routines at that level either… let alpone the “general populace”.

OTOH, they did look like they were undernourished to a degree, but I’m not so sure that’s any different in the overall statistical “scatter effect” than being over-nourished (aka “slightly plump”) is today…

Lama_Pai_Sifu · June 25, 2007, 12:44am

[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;772794]Certainly nutrition has come a long way since then.