Kiu Sao and Chi Sao

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

Hi Scuba Steve

Hi Scuba Steve,
You will have to ask/call/e-mail/write Sifu Loewenhagen himself. The contact information is on his web site.

Although I do like philosophical discussions (not to dismiss any other questions), I would like to spend more time on this thread with Kiu Sao/Chi Sao. I would like to ask that we move the discussion away from the article :).

Body Momentum, Emptiness and Stillness…

Hm, actually Terence, I think I should clarify something in the bridging example. It is definitely an involved problem trying to explain these type of ‘what if scenarios’ online.

Let’s put this into the perspective of Intercepting vice Redirecting from the initial engagement. The difference in these two methods is this:

  • Intercepting is a more aggressive strategy, where Time allows you to intercept the weapon upon delivery. In this case, there is also the neccesary space to acheive this (more time and space). Pres. Bush might call this a pre-emtive strike. Also, using this method is highly dependant upon you being able to maintain your structures (what we refer as Body Unity) in motion. Your mass+velocity against the weapon is what I mean by Body Momentum, body unity in motion.

  • Redirecting is a defensive strategy where the weapon is already in your space. Less time and space to deal with the threat. This is a much higher risk situation.

Stillness, in my context, is to be in complete awareness of your environment, where all your senses are tuned into the ‘here and now.’…a state of mentality. So from my perspective it applies at all times. You may be moving (like scanning the battlefield), or still (like locking onto the target, but waiting for it to come to you)

Emptiness, as I understand it, is to be receptive, yielding to energy so that you may transfer the energy through yourself to direction/place suitable for you to function and capitalize on the opponent. More of a redirective strategy, but can also be utilized in the interceptive method. Using an aggressive strategy with a redirective technique (ie: tan sao)

I was visualizing the punching/biu sao-kiu sao example where more time and space were available to use the Intercepting method stated above.

-Savi.

82

How to enjoy your tea

Reneritchie,
You don’t want the truth all you want is the tea and the dialogue. Why are you always the first to stand disturb the tea and object when you feel someone has not delivered the truth. If you want to stay on the topic might I suggest you not reply to every post off topic.

83

Footwork

Originally posted by Mckind13
[B] I noticed that the distance in the Kiu Sau drills were not conducive to immediately using your legs as a tool (in other words, required a change).

When I bridge with an opponent one goal is to place my bridge, body and ma into a favorable position that allows me to interact with my opponents arm, body, legs etc.

David [/B]

During the seminar, leg strategies were briefly covered. HFY shares the same strategy that one must have all limbs ready and able to attack/defend on the battlefield. This is consistent with the Time and Space Concept which was stated on “The paradigm shift of the Time and Space Concept” thread.

When drilling HFY Kiu Sao in the first three progressions, if you recall, the foot work must carry you to each side of the opponent for a proper flank. If you are able to express the TSC throughout the range of motion you will always have both legs in range for defense and offense.
-Savi.

84

–Rolling_Hand

  • As if your repeated attempts to discredit HFY through feigned association weren’t bad enough, your mention of Jee Shim, despite Hoffmann sifu’s express request to have his family left out of trolling, is an all time low. Now, please stop stalking me, and please remember Hendrik is a married man (making your obsession with him all the more disturbing).–RR

Rene Ritchie,

Can you have your cake and eat it, too.? Unlike you, I’ve had many good experiences with HFY family members in the past. Dwelling on other people’s faults. Multiplies your own and you accelerate your aggression. The harm you do turns against you grievoisly. Know this. Seek wisdom, and purity. Please stop stalking HFY’s name with your nonsense. (making your obession with them all the more disturbing).

Live in joy, in peace, even among the troubled.

Humm…

85

No Ch’an for Hendrik…

–That is not Chan teaching. That is the opposite of Chan teaching.
That is not return the light to shine. That is diffuse the light…–Hendrik

Do your thoughts trouble you?
Does passion dirturb you?
Do you really understand the teaching of Ch’an?
The fool is his own enemy.
Honor the man who is without passion, hatred, illusion and desire.
Then,
Ch’an…

Humm…

86

Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]

BTW how does the CHO family approach wing chun and the ethics involved? Curious.

Joy Chaudhuri [/B]

Joy,

I am a buddhist and then I practice Yik Kam or Miu Soon’s SLT.
The mother is the Emei 12 zhuang as you know.

So, here are how the Emei 12 Zhuang’s writing about the subject you are asking.

" The character of Crane is no fighting.
Thus it has the virtue of the Phenix…

Holding the Buddhism Precepts and politely social with the visitors…

(Even when we are) in Asura’s Realm,
Compassionate is always there
As the disciple of Buddha,
We hold the precept of not killing and hurting as the ultimate.

The Dharma place subduing the Heart’s Demon in the important place.
Once attain the Samadhi, instantly one be one with the Amitaba Buddha…"

Hope this give you a snap short of what is the mother’s teaching which I belive in.

Joy, notice it said in “Asura Realm.”
Meaning when one get into the fighting state one had roll into the Asura Realm, That is no longer the Buddha or Boddhisatva Realm. Fighting can never be Chan.

Even in the Surangama sutra, the buddha recalls a story in his previous life that he poke at a big fish’s head with a spear. and, in the present life, he still has to carry the karma of having headache due to that poke at the big fish.

One has to pay back the karma one created without exception even one is Buddha.

Again as the Hui Neng put it in his stanza:

Fighting is the mind of win or lost
that is opposite to the Dao
That kind of thought give raise to You/Me, Race, Time.
How can such thought lead one into Samadhi?

Thus it is absurd to claim even in fighting one still doing Chan.

Who say so? the 6th Patriach, Hui Neng.

87

Re: Off Topic

Originally posted by Savi
[B]Forgive my directness…

When speaking about Chan/Zen Philosophy we must be mindful not to step on Hendrik’s toes. Mr. Hendrik has demonstrated an extreme bias to the HFY’s relationship to Shaolin Chan in the past and today. I understand Hendrik’s bias being that the HFY is complete non-sense because it doesn’t fit into his picture.

It is with great humility that we all share [with others] our PERSONAL understanding of our kung fu and history in a respectable manner, but to be received by Hendrik’s words [I see] is tough, and difficult to see his intentions as Sifu Chaudhuri pointed out…

I find your comments gravitate more towards negativity and gossip; counter-productive to this discussion–Savi

-Savi. [/B]

Savi,

First, the subject is about Kiu Sau.
Then you bring Chan up.

I comment on Chan as I have learn it and read it from Chan teaching’s sutras and sastras.

You seem to not like that so you accuse me on extreme bias…negativity and gossip; counter-productive.

and then
bring up the HFY and Shao Lin which is not the Chan topic.

As for Chan, Chan is Chan. I don’t create it. and you cannot define it as you like.

It was Documented in the Sutras, Sastra, and passed down with 47 Patriach of Chan since Kasyapa. So you don’t like the facts?
Don’t blame me or accuse me.

Check into the teaching of those 47 Chan patriach.
Check into the Sutra and Sastra.
and look for yourself what is what?

Why is the world has to be as you like it to be?
And when it is not the way you like it.
You blame me.

Now, if you convince that your great understanding of Kiu Sau and Chan.

Proof to all of us where you can find kiu sau and Chan in the Sutras and Sastras. I am interested to learn from you.

By the way, the following is what Joy wrote:

“…But there has been a lot of rationalization of justifying one’s opinions by claiming the umbrella of Chan -both historically with the hung men and Japanese militarism and contemporaneously. On the latter atleast some of Dogen’s shoto zen folks opposed the militarism and paid the price of imprisonment and death. The others (many rinzai folks etc) got manipulated by the militarists…”

Joy see what I am talking about clearly.

Look Savi, I am not interested in this WCK family or that WCK family.

I am here to discuss technical issues about CHAN.

You can understand you Kung fu anyway you want but stop accusing me.

Why shoot the messenger?

88

Re: The wise harm no one…

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]

People are not interested in your personal opinions and politics. You guys have been playing your silly game with HFY/Jee Sim families for too long. Enough is enough and stop trolling. Many of us here are more interested in learning about HFY kiu Sao, not your personal opinions. [/B]

Rolling Hand,

1, The subject of discussion is about KIU SAU and CHI SAU, then get migrate into CHAN. Since you always act wise please return to the focus CHAN.

2, You like it or not like it there are Chan Patriach’s Teaching documentations, Sutras and Sastras one can checked into.

3, if you belive you are right, it is no need to accuse or blame or set up others to others. Just shows the evident of connection to Chan.

Bottom line it is a techincal discussion. That simple.

89

To bring things back to the original topic.

Hello,
In hopes to bring things back to the original topic at hand. HFY has kiu sau like many other southern shaolin systems. HFY has a very precise Kiu sao. HFY has a very precise Chi sao. Kiu sau is the foundation for Chi sao. Of course I do not mean for all WCK only HFY. I have to say this becuase HFY Chi sao is a very specific thing and we are not speaking for all WCK only HFY. Sure I understand that alot of people have different ideas and understandings of what Kiu sau is. This may not be consistant with HFY Kiu sau. Thus causing some of the confusion.

Rene,

I have to admit Rolling hand does have a point. I have also noticed that every time HFY or Chi Sim history has been mentioned Hendrick, yourself and a few others seem to jump in a repeat your opinions and theorys on the subjects. It does seem like you and those others seem to have some type of personal interest in doing this. It comes across as though you all have some sort of conection. I could be wrong but I think many other would agree that this has been the case. In most of these cases we are only sharing what we have to offer and in some cases we do not have any interest in debating the topics. I could be wrong but this does seem to be the case. I’m just asking you to step back and take a look at this. Again I could be wrong but things can be precieved this way. It has been going on for quite some time now. Maybe you don’t see it.

At this point I would like to get back on topic of HFY Kiu sau and Chi Sao how they are connected. I think maybe those that are interested in further discussion of this information might find some answers from reviewing some of the reviews from the workshop. Here is a link so that you can read through and maybe gain many perspectives on the subject.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/timeline/2002/nov01-03_2002.php

Chango (SGS)

:smiley:

90


“You last post about Foo Hui should have been directed towards the HFY members. Why? The Hung Fa Yi was named after the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty, therefore you speak of HFY heritage and I do not appreciate how you are wording your history lesson. Can you distinguish the reality from the illusions (fact from fiction) of your last post?”

Stop putting words in my post.

Ask the TaiChi guys, is TaiChi really created by Chang Sang-Feng?
Ask Hung Siew-Chuen the King of Taiping. is he the son of GOD?
Ask…

Have you ever think about:

As in the story, Chu Yuan-Chang doesn’t execute his wife Emperor Ma and Liu Po Wen. But instead agree with them to do the right thing to protect his good name.
That is a good attitude one needs to learn.

91

Re: To bring things back to the original topic.

Originally posted by Chango
[B]
I have to admit Rolling hand does have a point. I have also noticed that every time HFY or Chi Sim history has been mentioned Hendrick, yourself and a few others seem to jump in a repeat your opinions and theorys on the subjects. It does seem like you and those others seem to have some type of personal interest in doing this. It comes across as though you all have some sort of conection. I could be wrong but I think many other would agree that this has been the case. In most of these cases we are only sharing what we have to offer and do not have any interest in debating the topic. I could be wrong but it this does seem to be the case. I’m just asking you to step back and take a look at this. Again I could be wrong but things can be precieved this way. It has been going on for quite some time now.

Chango (SGS)

:smiley: [/B]

Chango,

Certianly everyone has thier point if looking with thier point of view.

In my understanding,
The whole thing started with
VTM published a magazine article about HFY and Chisim are the oldest of WCK.

Certainly, with that publication, VTM sets it up for others to question that claim.

Since VTM mention Ip Man’s Line, YSK… and mine line. Certainly, we will like to ask VTM to back the claim with evidents.

It will not be fair if one can make claim on others and expect others to take it as the truth isn’t it?

It is also not fair that only VTM can make claim and others cannot show evidents that it is not the case, right?

See, it is simple if you don’t want others to jump in the history discussion. Don’t make claim for others.

If one makes claim for others one has to accept other’s questioning and discussion.
what do you think?

By the way, Chan discussion is about Chan not about other.
It is not right that the non Chan practitioners talks about Chan and the Chan buddhist cannot present the Chan teaching.

Why should a Chan Buddhist accept quitely about what other claim about Chan which is not accord to Chan teaching for past 1000years?

May be you can say it is the USA it is a free speech place. Certainly, but Free Speech goes both ways.

May be we all have to call a halt on all of these.
but then will everyone willing to look into oneself other then blame others?

92

I’m very nice to the VTM/HFY members on this board, and I’m very respectful of their claims. However, many of them (Savi, Levi, Matt Kwan, and a few others are noteable exceptions) are quite rude and disrespectful towards me and mine. It goes both ways.

Right now, its a few bad apples from the HFY/VTM side who are being closed minded, and ruining what is an interesting thread for the rest of us. Cut it out.

And Chango, you especially are a disappointment. Despite Andreas’ very express request, you keep lumping his system into your discussions. While I know you have no respect for me or my views, I thought, at least, you’d respect his wishes.

Let us also not forget that Yip Man, Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung, Cho, and almost every other family traces their lineage back to Shaolin (mostly through Ng Mui Si Tai), so singling out theories to the contrary as being anti-HFY just shows the incredible tunnel vision still being practiced by some people. It is our heritage as well. You have no exclusive rights to any of it. If you think you do, you’re the problem.

Instead of jumping all over anyone who disagrees with you, which is counter the precepts your own organization is supposed to stand for, how about extending the same respect you seem so adament in demanding? If you can’t, you have no place in mature discussion and only do your own argument harm. Get off the board and stop the embarassment.

Now, if any of you really want to have a discussion, and don’t just want everyone to listen, doglike, at your feet and bark out nothing but appreciation for the scraps we are tossed, please do so and cut out the cr@p. No more trolling_hand posts that are nothing but personal attacks without any on-topic content, and no more Chango personal attacks with requests that everyone get back on topic. Leave Levi, Savi, myself, and those with interest in the actual topic get on with it. Have that much decency at least.

And Hendrik, you stop trolling to. It takes two to tango and while the HFY/VTM people should stick to the topic, so should everyone else. Not everyone of their posts is about “original” and “Shaolin” and “Chan”, and even if they mention it, you don’t have to let it be a hot button.

RR

93

Hendrik- thanks for explaining how you link ethics with wing chun.
It is very clear to me…but then since many of the terms…asura realm, samadhi, karma(the way you are using the term). amitabha
etc are very familiar to me- I didnt have trouble seeing the links.
joy chaudhuri

94

I Have To Agree With Chango On This!!!

Chango Wrote>

I have to admit Rolling hand does have a point. I have also noticed that every time HFY or Chi Sim history has been mentioned Hendrick, yourself and a few others seem to jump in a repeat your opinions and theorys on the subjects. It does seem like you and those others seem to have some type of personal interest in doing this. It comes across as though you all have some sort of conection. I could be wrong but I think many other would agree that this has been the case. In most of these cases we are only sharing what we have to offer and in some cases we do not have any interest in debating the topics. I could be wrong but this does seem to be the case. I’m just asking you to step back and take a look at this. Again I could be wrong but things can be precieved this way. It has been going on for quite some time now. Maybe you don’t see it.

Hendrik Wrote>

Since VTM mention Ip Man’s Line, YSK… and mine line. Certainly, we will like to ask VTM to back the claim with evidents.

I would still like to have a look at the book Hendrik has talked about on many occasions detailing “his” familys history.:confused:

Rene Wrote>

I’m very nice to the VTM/HFY members on this board, and I’m very respectful of their claims. However, many of them (Savi, Levi, Matt Kwan, and a few others are noteable exceptions) are quite rude and disrespectful towards me and mine. It goes both ways.

When you say your very nice, do you mean “you” don’t openly attack them but on a certain mailing list you wouldn’t shut down the people that do attack them:confused:

Rene Wrote>

Let us also not forget that Yip Man, Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung, Cho, and almost every other family traces their lineage back to Shaolin (mostly through Ng Mui Si Tai), so singling out theories to the contrary as being anti-HFY just shows the incredible tunnel vision still being practiced by some people. It is our heritage as well. You have no exclusive rights to any of it. If you think you do, you’re the problem.

I can understand this but certain people on a certain mailing list “I’m naming no names” wouldn’t even entertain their ideas or theorys.:frowning:

I have allot of respect for you Rene and the VTM people, but fairs fair, you keep on dragging in Sifu Hoffmanns name, I’m sure if he had such a big problem with it he would chime in and say so himself.:confused:

Sheldon:(

95

Hi Savi,

Savi wrote:

Body Momentum, Emptiness and Stillness…

Hm, actually Terence, I think I should clarify something in the bridging example. It is definitely an involved problem trying to explain these type of ‘what if scenarios’ online.

Let’s put this into the perspective of Intercepting vice Redirecting from the initial engagement. The difference in these two methods is this:

  • Intercepting is a more aggressive strategy, (Savi)

For me, jeet (intercepting/cutting-off) is not a “choice” (any more than dap/jip is a choice) of strategy, but is part of the core expression of WCK. TN

where Time allows you to intercept the weapon upon delivery. In this case, there is also the neccesary space to acheive this (more time and space).
(Savi)

From my perspective, jeet involves more than just dealing with my opponent’s “weapon” and instead deals with cutting-off his offensive potential – his total offensive potential; distance/space isn’t a factor IMO (I can jeet from contact, non-contact, close-body, off-fighting, etc.). TN

Pres. Bush might call this a pre-emtive strike. (Savi)

Do you mean in the sense of “ne dong, wo dong sien” (he moves, but I arrive first)? TN

Also, using this method is highly dependant upon you being able to maintain your structures (what we refer as Body Unity) in motion. Your mass+velocity against the weapon is what I mean by Body Momentum, body unity in motion. (Savi)

That is what I assumed you meant. I agree that one should always maintain body-unity and structure (fwiw, I think we all use the “buzzwords” but I don’t think we all necessarily mean the same things). From my perspective, body-unity in motion is something different than body momentum. TN

  • Redirecting is a defensive strategy where the weapon is already in your space. Less time and space to deal with the threat. This is a much higher risk situation. (Savi)

My perspective is different. As I see it, WCK doesn’t use “defensive strategies”; and “redirecting” - by which I assume you mean dai (leading/guiding) - can be used at any range/space IMO. TN

Stillness, in my context, is to be in complete awareness of your environment, where all your senses are tuned into the ‘here and now.’…a state of mentality. So from my perspective it applies at all times. You may be moving (like scanning the battlefield), or still (like locking onto the target, but waiting for it to come to you) (Savi)

I see “stillness” as more than a “state of mentality” and more as a description of WCK’s fundamental approach toward application. TN

Emptiness, as I understand it, is to be receptive, yielding to energy so that you may transfer the energy through yourself to direction/place suitable for you to function and capitalize on the opponent. More of a redirective strategy, but can also be utilized in the interceptive method. Using an aggressive strategy with a redirective technique (ie: tan sao)

I didn’t bring up “emptiness”. FWIW, I don’t particularly like the term “energy” since it sounds so very Star Warsy and isn’t an accurate description of what is really going on. And without repeating my points above, let me just say that from my perspective tan sao is not a “redirective technique” (any more than a punch is a redirective technique - i.e., any “redirection” is incidental to controlling the line and bridging to the opponent’s center). TN

I was visualizing the punching/biu sao-kiu sao example where more time and space were available to use the Intercepting method stated above.

-Savi.

See above. TN

Terence

96

Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]
Let us also not forget that Yip Man, Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung, Cho, and almost every other family traces their lineage back to Shaolin (mostly through Ng Mui Si Tai), so singling out theories to the contrary as being anti-HFY just shows the incredible tunnel vision still being practiced by some people. It is our heritage as well. You have no exclusive rights to any of it. If you think you do, you’re the problem.

And Hendrik, you stop trolling to. It takes two to tango and while the HFY/VTM people should stick to the topic, so should everyone else. Not everyone of their posts is about “original” and “Shaolin” and “Chan”, and even if they mention it, you don’t have to let it be a hot button.

RR [/B]

Rene

This will my last post on these subject because I don’t think it goes any where.

1, with Yik Kam’s SLT writing, Miu Shoon Told his student Yim Yee that the Art he taught to Yim Yee is not Ng Mui’s White Crane style. But a fusion of his own style and White Crane.
Now, we all know with evident that is Emei 12 Zhuang and White Crane from Fuchien.
As for Shao Lin, Which Shao Lin? Nothern? Southern? Southern Po tien, Southern Chuan Chiu,… You read history from Ching Po-Chi.

2, Chan is Chan. it is similar to Wing Chun cannot be Wrestling.
Personally,
I can accept that others have opinion or their view. However,
when it comes to FACT.
As in Buddhism said, one never use Dharma to trade for relationship. Eventhough in Chan teaching everything is equal but one still has to be differentiate between Black and White.
The question is: is it or is it not.

I sincerely hope that WCK progress.
without the back ground of differrentiating Black and White how is the WCK going to progress? Based on fable?

Finally,
before I stop posting for this subject.
Here is a stanza from Young Chia

" right or not right
Wrong or not wrong
if it is right, One will similar to the Dragon Princess instantaneously attain buddha.
If it is wrong, one will fall into hell similar to the buddhist monk ( Lucky star)…"

Note: Lucky star claim that he had attained the 4th stage of Arahatship where he only attain the 4th level of Samadhi.
When he got into uncontrolable situation, he blaimed Buddha to being lie to him and not taking instruction to set himself free . he doesnot realized that it is he himself has make a mistake.

97

Gee, Geezer agrees with Chango who agrees with Rolling Hand. What a surprise. 8) You guys really have to take this act on the road sometime. Barnum would be thrilled.

(BTW - As you well know, the WCML was an is a level playing field, the only problem is some people don’t like to take as good as they give, and cry and moan about it, never addressing their own behavior, and, it seems still not willing to.)

And congrats to all for ruining another great technical thread with all this BS. What a proud moment. (And just to intercept Trolling_Hand, you are already incorrect and stop stalking me).

RR

98

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- thanks for explaining how you link ethics with wing chun.
It is very clear to me…but then since many of the terms…asura realm, samadhi, karma(the way you are using the term). amitabha
etc are very familiar to me- I didnt have trouble seeing the links.
joy chaudhuri

Joy,

This will be my last post in this forum.
So, you might asking why is Hendrik here?
As you might already know.
It is about sharing the education based with WCK people.

I purposely directly translate the term, ASURA, SAMADHI, AMITABHA… because hopefully someone care enought to read more into the related Buddhism teaching be it the Chan… TCM, or Chakras related subject.

YEs, there are 9 level of training in the EMEI 12 Zhuang based.
And starts from 4 level or so it is about Ilumination Body or the RainBow body type of deal. So, without the based of education and stuck in all the fables of Chan this Chan that and Shao Lin this Shao Lin that and not willing to speak for the truth is not going to go anywhere.

I wish WCK the best. However, if people not starting to read, think, and learn the flatform of the past. There is no way out.
May be I am wrong. But what if I am right? The development of WCK in the past 40 years has shown, IMHO, pulling the reverse gear or not progressing compare with the RedJunk era. Just look at the terminology we use today. it is confusing and not specific.
Tan can be anything. Kiu can be anything…
Sorry I am not attacking anyone but just take for example.
Still I might be wrong but what If I am right?

Bye to all.
Sorry if you think I am against any family or you or your teaching.
I am not. I am just a messenger.

Sensing? Chi sau? Kiu Sau…
I know where you want to go. However, without the understanding of Wai, Shen, Sai…, the Mai transportation, the syncronization of breathing… .
How can one get there? Can Just argue the death out of it can get there?
see, even making a neuclear bomb one needs uraniun. Can’t just argue.

I

And as someone said before giving the Neuclear bomb out is similar to giving a kid a sharp razor blade.
Without the proper Chan teaching what to manage the “Neuclear” bomb?

I rather go live in the MARS!

will not win popularity contest and that is not my goal.
My point is simple. I take the path I took. and if what I did is right follow it. If not, through them into the Garbage.

Best wishes for all and have a Happy Thanks giving.
Hendrik has died in this forum. Isn’t it great. No more Hendrik’s trolling and stalking. LOL

99

Hendrik,

It’s our loss, though I’m sure several troll types are too self-involved to realize it yet. Anyway, I never believe you when you say you’re done. You care too much about WCK and Chan, and can’t help but drop in from time to time.

(As they say, it’s no good speaking if people aren’t ready to listen, you just get frustrated and they just get upset).

RR

100

Hendrik says;
Joy,

This will be my last post in this forum.

((Why? Hope not. But understandable if it is.
Thanks for your honest efforts in discussing
the links or the lack thereof between Chan
and the martial arts. Important to be “disengaged”
in net discussions.))

Joy Chaudhuri/yuanfen

“No more good should be attempted than people can bear”
Solon- the ancient classical western law giver.