Kiu Sao and Chi Sao

Re: fau kiu

Hi Tony,

Originally posted by canglong
[B]Grendel,

“do you have instances when you’d move to chi sao, but you remain in kiu sau range because you have control over your partner anyway? Please clarify this use.”

The short answer is yes, the reason being you can attain san da position to strike from kiu sau. No need to go to chi sau, but if your opponent is not a threat and you have control that control at kiu sau range may be all that is warranted in that situation, or
[/B]

Your posts are very well worded and clear up a lot of my confusion. :smiley:
[B]

or paraphrasing my Sitiagung chi sau is a priviledge that you attain via persuasion of your kiu sau. [/B]

LOL! :smiley: Well said, again.

Regards,

Tony wrote:

I think that would be a common mistake. To the priciple of the question as I see it, there is no need for strategy where no threat exist. The philosophy as I see it, says you are in a state of harmony so enjoy it. As for application kiu sau does not necessarily mean san da will follow or that it has to. Kui sau is a means of demonstrating your ability to get to a nuetral or superior position in order to curtail the need for strikes. If your opponent is unable to recognize your ability to attain these positions you can further demonstrate them by moving from kiu sau (arm bridge) to chi sau (striking point) while preventing your opponent the opportunity to do the same and that I think is key. Then further if he is unable to recognize your ability to do this you can further demonstrate your superiority by striking.

Me Wrote :slight_smile:

Okay I can see if it is a philosophical thing but darn if I have been able to get anyone from your camp to explain the flow of interaction between themselves and an opponent outside the context of what I heard at the Kiu Sau seminar.

To difficult or has this idea not been introduced to the majority of you yet?

Not trying to be inflammatory here but if I use my understanding of my WCK I get it from the that’s not HFY side and if I try to use my limited HFY knowledge I get the its not write or that is outside of the Kiu Sau drill bit.

Some minor points

There is no need for strategy where no threat exists – You always need strategy when dealing with people, even when no perceived threat exists.

You are in a state of harmony so enjoy it – Harmony exists as balance, balance needs to be both passive and aggressive. Both waiting for the attack and ready to take the initiative.

The point being if your kiu sau is good enough you will seldmon have to move to chi sau and even less likely will be the need for you to strike. – This does not seem to fit in with the “combat system to train soldiers and overthrow the government ideals I have heard about.

In your opinion how does the HFY Chan philosophy fit with the battlefield philosophy of fighting for your life?

How does that fit into Kiu Sau?

(This is nice dialog lets keep it up)

David

Maybe this should be a new post but what about

Kiu Gerk.

Making a bridge with the legs :slight_smile:

I noticed that the distance in the Kiu Sau drills were not conducive to immediately using your legs as a tool (in other words, required a change).

When I bridge with an opponent one goal is to place my bridge, body and ma into a favorable position that allows me to interact with my opponents arm, body, legs etc.

Have you experienced any drills that address using the legs in a similar fashion as you do your arms in Kiu Sau.

David

fau kiu

Hello all,

t_niehoff,
May I ask is that your perception of what you were taught or is that indeed exactly what you were taught because it sounds to me as if you presume you are either faster or more skilled than everyone you meet. Your definition of bridge seems to be a one way bridge. Meaning if someone were controling your center you might not consider that a bridge. I believe there could exist a situation where two equally skilled operatives create a bridge without advantage and this too would constitute a bridge, this is just what I was taught and I believe that to be true.

reneritchie,
I am not sure if we are here for respect some might be but I tend to think one thing we are all after for sure is truth. You don’t have to respect the messenger you just need to understand the message.

Grendel,
yeah that was funny when I heard it too you need to see his face when he says it.

fau kiu kiu sau

Hey David how’s the surf?

"explain the flow of interaction between themselves and an opponent outside the context of what I heard at the Kiu Sau seminar. " – I don’t fully understand the statement so I can’t answer, could you elaborate.

“if I use my understanding of my WCK I get it from the that’s not HFY side and if I try to use my limited HFY knowledge I get the its not write or that is outside of the Kiu Sau drill bit.” – hey David so do I so do I. lol

With the strategy we just differ because no I don’t believe you need strategy 24/7 ready and aware yes but strategy comes as needed.

"The point being if your kiu sau is good enough you will seldmon have to move to chi sau and even less likely will be the need for you to strike. – This does not seem to fit in with the “combat system to train soldiers and overthrow the government ideals I have heard about. " – I think it fits into a combat system that distinguishes between a battlefield and a non battlefield where on one death is expected and on the other life is respected.

Chan philosophy as I understand it does not see war as fighting but as an existence out of balance. When chan seeks to restore harmony death may occur but that is not the intent. To that end kiu sau is a tool for restoring harmony of one’s immediate personal space.

but I tend to think one thing we are all after for sure is truth.

Truth is man’s attempt to deal with the mind numbing vastness of the universe. It’s a crutch, an illusion, a maguffin, an abstract of human hubris. It’s a closed mind, an easy answer, an aborted journey. If anyone ever tells you they offer the “truth”, or asks you if something is “true”, they are either placing artificial constraints on their subset of reality, or trying to sell you something, and you should run as fast as you can the other way ('specially if they’re ringing your doorbell on the weekend, pamphlet in hand).

What I’m here for is something between good tea table conversation and the chance some other perspective, through the mental work required to determine its value, may spark some personal insight (an iterative process). That and a productive pass time while I wait, chained to my desk, for some work related material to finish processing…

RR

Tony Jacobs wrote:

t_niehoff,
May I ask is that your perception of what you were taught or is that indeed exactly what you were taught because it sounds to me as if you presume you are either faster or more skilled than everyone you meet. Your definition of bridge seems to be a one way bridge. Meaning if someone were controling your center you might not consider that a bridge. I believe there could exist a situation where two equally skilled operatives create a bridge without advantage and this too would constitute a bridge, this is just what I was taught and I believe that to be true.


My perception is based on what I was taught, what I have experienced, and my personal understanding. It has nothing to do with “speed”, but does indeed have to do with having skill (do you really expect to beat someone better skilled?).

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your questions. Certainly according to my view one can create a bridge without advantage (just connecting to my opponent’s center doesn’t in and of itself give me an advantage if I don’t use that connection), and two people can have their centers connected without either having an advantage. Our drills in WCK (can) teach us, IMO, how to establish a bridge (center-to-center connection), how to use it, how to prevent our opponent from using it against us, etc. The point of my original post was that “kiu” for me denotes a certain quality of connection – as I see it our arms can touch in any number of ways (wrist-to-wrist, forearm-to-forearm, wrist-to-forearm, palm-to-wrist, and on and on) but merely touching in and of itself doesn’t give us the ability to control, it is the quality of connection that does. I hope this makes my meaning clearer.

Terence

Re: fau kiu kiu sau

Originally posted by canglong
Chan philosophy as I understand it does not see war as fighting but as an existence out of balance. When chan seeks to restore harmony death may occur but that is not the intent. To that end kiu sau is a tool for restoring harmony of one’s immediate personal space.

The Hui Neng’s Stanza said.

There is not a Bodhi Tree
There is not a Mirror
There in the orginal is not a thing
How can it collect dust?

From one’s Buddha nature, one give raise Wu Ming, then create a me and you, then space then time then create a Kiu Sau…then fighting… it goes on and on to create more karma …

That is not Chan teaching. That is the opposite of Chan teaching.
That is not return the light to shine. That is diffuse the light…

All these differentiation false attachment mind and creation of different fighting Karma.
Can you call that Chan?
is that accord to Chan’s teaching?

In the Qing Dynasty, Some Hung Mun using the name of Chan and Damo to propagate thier non sense. That is not Chan.

Some Japanese uses Chan as a tool to provoke self righteousness for figthing and killing. That is not Chan.

This is 2000’s. Don’t fall into those trap. , Chan teaching is about return to the origin. Not to travel away from the origin. not create more ignorance karma.

Certainly people will start all sort of arguement to attack.
That is fine and expected.

the facts is where is the mind seal from Kashapa and who passed it to one.
Don’t using Chan to mess up other’s mind and life.

What is not balance when all living beings are equal ?
Chan is about The Samyaksambodhi not about Kiu Sau.

Foo Hui

Rene,

in Chinese,
There is a term “Foo Hui”
Meaning, to attach things to what it has no relationship just to make things look and sound big.

There is a story about Foo Hui
When the first emperor of Ming Dynasty, Chu Yuan Chaang decided to become emperor.

His ass kissing officials like Hu Wei-Yoong… started to link Chu’s ancestors to great scholars..

Luckily that Chu has a very good empress, Empress Ma
and a great official Liu Po-Wen. They stop these stuffs.
Otherwise, there will be big back fire years later.

This is a bad habit. Hopefully WCK people don’t learn this bad habit. otherwise when it back fire. one will be in deep souce.

It is not worthed.

Hendrik-While your English will give some folks fits- you make some very good points. The question of Chan and the martial arts is a topic that will take a long time to flush out ina net forum.

But there has beena lot of rationalization of justifying one’s opinions by claiming the umbrella of Chan -both historically with the hung men and Japanese militarism and contemporaneously. On the latter atleast some of Dogen’s shoto zen folks opposed the militarism and paid the price of imprisonment and death. The others (many rinzai folks etc) got manipulated by the militarists.

Buddhism is the middle way and different from Jain ahimsa. An attacked monk using his staff and folks using double knives and also using violence because someone has disturbed harmony in their opinion by entering their space are quite different things. And of course the PRC pushing the Shaolin myths commercially is also nonsense.. In the Qing Dynasty, Some Hung Mun using the name of Chan and Damo to propagate their non sense. That is not Chan. You make the appropriate points on Hui neng, Kashyapa and other aspects of Chan.

The mechanics and dynamics of wing chun and other TCMA-s have their own logic and uses and responsibilities…but to simply wrap the mantle of Chan to legitimize a specific martial art is spurious IMO…who else’s can it be?

BTW how does the CHO family approach wing chun and the ethics involved? Curious.

Joy Chaudhuri

Off Topic

Forgive my directness…

When speaking about Chan/Zen Philosophy we must be mindful not to step on Hendrik’s toes. Mr. Hendrik has demonstrated an extreme bias to the HFY’s relationship to Shaolin Chan in the past and today. I understand Hendrik’s bias being that the HFY is complete non-sense because it doesn’t fit into his picture.

It is with great humility that we all share [with others] our PERSONAL understanding of our kung fu and history in a respectable manner, but to be received by Hendrik’s words [I see] is tough, and difficult to see his intentions as Sifu Chaudhuri pointed out.


Hendrik, from your posts I can see you do not fully comprehend Hung Fa Yi or Shaolin Chan. Tony Jacob’s depiction is based on ethics and address the ‘here and now’ (war time vs. peace time) situation. Is that not Chan/Zen? His answer is very accurate, skillfully worded, and in accordance with HFY/Shaolin nature. If you understand HFY nature and history, you will see how accurate it is. If you do not fully understand the history and nature of HFY, you should not speak for us. The question was about HFY’s marriage to Shaolin (Chan) Buddhism, not another sect of Chan. From what I know, you do not study HFY. Can you answer McKind13’s question? Are you familiar with Shaolin Chan? Does your Chan originate from there, or another place?

Hendrik, when I read your posts I find certain comments very insinuating. This may be my ignorance, but that’s why I’m letting you know. I find your comments gravitate more towards negativity and gossip; counter-productive to this discussion. What do I mean? You last post about Foo Hui should have been directed towards the HFY members. Why? The Hung Fa Yi was named after the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty, therefore you speak of HFY heritage and I do not appreciate how you are wording your history lesson. Can you distinguish the reality from the illusions (fact from fiction) of your last post?

Did you feel it neccesary AND relevant to educate Rene on this forum about Foo Hui for any particular reason, IF NOT to express your feelings indirectly about the HFY family heritage? Why not address ‘Foo Hui’ to us all? And please tell how Shaolin Chan is a part of HFY since you seem to be an authority on that particular relationship. You make it a point to have the HFY family sound like we do not know what we talk about. We speak of our understanding. That’s it. Are you saying that we do not understand our understanding?

If you have something to say about HFY or Kiu Sao, then please say it. Remember, McKind13’s question was about HFY’s operational connection to Chan. If you do not recognize Shaolin Chan as legitemate, then you are right and we are wrong. No more discussion neccesary. Not to mention everything else from Shaolin… Are you the rock skipping over the water, or the water itself?

McKind13, your question is well received, but it does require an understanding of HFY history to understand the answer. If this is going to be an in-depth discussion about history and philosophy (which would be a great discussion too) I think it should begin on a seperate thread.

I recommend that you and Mr. Hendrik both visit www.mengsofaz.com under the academics link. Read up on the ‘internet chat rooms’ article and this may bring new information to your table. More information on HFY history is also available on the website, and at the VTM website.

Sorry for wasting any bandwidth.
-Savi.

Hey Hendrik, Joy,

Good points, if off-topic. In history, this was often the case with the Secret Societies, which made up links to Shaolin or Ming (no one seems to have had any direct ones, they just knew a friend who knew a friend who had once met a Ming Scion or a Monk) and would use it to raise money, as would some local temples (not Shaolin, also often not Buddhist) the way modern churches use Bingo. It was, for lack of a better modern parallel, a network marketing enterprise, used to fund many things, some noble, some not. Sun Yat-Sen, like your story, also sought to make up history to help make his Nationalist movement more attractive to Foreign Secret Society leaders, based on these olds marketing ploys. Despite his group of “historians” he ultimately failed as well. Perhaps he lacked as far-seeing an Empress. Yet many in the West were raised on these stories and will do and say much in defense of them. People will, in most cases, believe who they want to and what they want to, since they have vested interest in doing so.

Did Chan monks fight and kill in the old days? Maybe some did, didn’t make killing righteous under Chan precepts, but it probably did provide opportunity for rationalization, the way other religions have rationalized Crusades.

Anyway, to get back to application, this is also something common. Does you application really work, or do you make up rationalizations? And do your rationalizations hold up? (It didn’yt work because you made a mistake is one thing, but it didn’t work because your adversary ‘punched wrong’ is quite another).

With things like San Sao, Chi Sao, etc. whether they are 1000 years old or made up last Tuesday, they must also hold up under application, and not just philosophy (lest ye be the most philosophically enlightened body on the ground), and if they are claimed to be from a certain culture, must hold up to that culture (A ‘space shuttle uppercut’ is nice in modern lingo, but anachronistic from a latter Song Dynasty art :wink: ) And, if the art being discussed is extent in varying forms, it must also hold up in contrast to those art (an art claiming to be WCK with no Tan, Fook, or Bong, and a set remarkably similiar to Yangjia Taiji, would be questionable).

So, to sum, it is useful to analyze any teaching/learning process (which is what we’re really discussing here) in terms of its benefits to us (does it help us learn/teach better, with better being more efficient attainment, and attainment in this case being successful application). Not as useful, but still interesting, is to analyze whether its historically consistent (though older != better, there is some folk sense that it does).

BTW- For those not familiar with t_niehoff, and despite his desire to remain an anonymous troll, he is a 20+ year WCK practitioner (who refereshingly eshews the titles master, sifu, and even poobah) with previous experience in the Leung Ting WT, William Cheung TWC, and currently Robert Chu approaches to WCK, with degrees in physics and law (good for science vs. ‘science’ debates :wink: ), and some training in logical reasoning (which makes his choice of participating here rather bewildering). I believe he’s available somewhere in the US (you folks have far too many states for me to keep track of) for contact WCK, and, rumor has it, latin dancing. Agree or disagree (and we’ve done both over the years), IMHO, Terence is an aset in that, either way, you’re always forced to really think through your ideas, which serves to strengthen, or challenge previous perceptions, and always leads to new insights. (I’m sure the stalkers are already warming up, but don’t sweat them, TN, their impotent little buggers and hiding behind screen names and talking tough is the only thing that keeps them from remembering that).

RR

Hi Savi,

Mr. Hendrik has demonstrated an extreme bias to the HFY’s relationship to Shaolin Chan in the past and today.

This is true, and so does your group, the only problem lies in that you both seem to extremely dislike the bias of the other, and not recognize it goes both ways. A wise person knows there’s some Yin in Yang and vice versa, and that each of you could be wrong (if you don’t believe you could be wrong, IMHO, you have no place in a reasonable discussion). I will point out, however, that over the course of this discussion, we have learned that Hendrik has studied directly with a student of Xu Yun, and has spent time with 2 or 3 other students of Xu. And while he’s asked who provided the Shaolin Chan training and the mind-seal to your group, he has repeatedly been ignored (even though he himself has been accused of dodging questions).

Also, since we’re being direct, I find it odd that people who always seem to demand others be open minded aren’t themselves upon to other ideas/beliefs. What if Hendrik is wrong, or what if Savi’s group is wrong? Both are possibilities. Can we accept them, and thus prove our place in a mature discussion?

I personally lean away from their being any ancestral Shaolin or Chan connection to WCK, but I remain open to the possibility there might be, and would enjoy seeing information (not opinion, because while I enjoy that, and it makes me think, there’s nothing tangible about it) supporting that theory. Because of this, should I be called closed minded? Should I be attacked on message boards, insulted, bullied, etc.? Because, like Hendrik, I have been and am still. And are such acts worthy of those who ask others to be open minded?

I recommend that you and Mr. Hendrik both visit www.mengsofaz.com under the academics link. Read up on the ‘internet chat rooms’ article and this may bring new information to your table. More information on HFY history is also available on the website, and at the VTM website.

That “article”, which is now in edited version, along with a companion article, were part of disgusting, dishonorable, deplorable attacks on myself and others. They were ill-conceived, poorly informed, badly written, factually inaccurate, petty, politcal manipulations of the worst kind. I assume you’re not aware of what went on there, but it is not something I consider good form in bringing up.

RR

This Is Slightly Off Topic.

Richard Loewenhagen Wrote On
http://www.mengsofaz.com/>

In the past, a direct attack on a person’s integrity would result in a duel or challenge. If such attacks persist, they will once again do so! Attacks on personal integrity will not be forever ignored! There is an ancient martial phrase called “Ming Yi” meaning “name righteousness”. If you study martial arts, you must understand this courtesy. Your name is everything. It is the root of Chinese culture that emphasizes never insulting another’s integrity or name. To do so will most certainly result in direct confrontation!

I find this interesting, I don’t think this is completely an Asian thing, I’m all about an “Eye For An Eye”.
The part of London I’m from it’s part of life there, you take care of buisness. How many modern day MAs are adopting a turn the other cheek attitude, how many people think it’s childish too talk about “actually taking care of a verbal/physical attacker”.:confused:
My family means the world to me, if someone knocks on my door and insults my Wife I’m not going to ignore it and hope they go away I’m going to knock(give it a go anyway)the living $hit out of them.:confused:
When will people realise that for some this is what there all about and if you make the insult you should be prepared to back it up and except the challange if it comes your way.
How many people are prepared to fight even though they know there may be a chance they might get the cr@p kicked out of them.:confused:
I know this went off topic abit but I think it fell in line with what Rene talked about and Richards article( I didn’t want to quote everything though).

Sheldon:)

Geezer,

[Edited because I’ve said my piece on the matter and I’d rather stick to discussing the art and not the people]

As for the rest, philosophically, it’s immature (not a personal attack, a description of that thinkings place on the human evolutionary scale). It is might makes right, rather than might for right, mob rule, and the dominance of thuggery over civility. In such a world, anyone with strength could say whatever they wanted, no matter how much BS it was, and through sheer initimidation, keep any other opinions, no matter how righteous, subjugated. It is also why countries like the US, UK, Canada, etc. have representational forms of government, and legal systems.

If someone insults you (not you Sheldon, the generic plural you), and you cream them, you’re a fool and will likely go to jail, where you’ll probably find out pretty quickly what being on the receiving end of things feels like. If someone insults the martial arts you practice, and you threaten them, you’re beyond a fool (and should really seek psycological help for anger management, impulse control, ego wrangling, and emotional attachment prioritization, etc.). Fight to protect yourself, your family, and your land from threat of physical violence. Otherwise, if it ain’t true, answer it in kind or laugh it off.

RR

The wise harm no one…

Hendrik, when I read your posts I find certain comments very insinuating. This may be my ignorance, but that’s why I’m letting you know. I find your comments gravitate more towards negativity and gossip; counter-productive to this discussion–Savi


Hung Fa Yi = Honey

Bees = Robert Chu’s camp (Hendrik, David Mckind, Terence)

See what is.
See what is not.
Follow the honey bees.
Noises


Rene and Hendrik,

People are not interested in your personal opinions and politics. You guys have been playing your silly game with HFY/Jee Sim families for too long. Enough is enough and stop trolling. Many of us here are more interested in learning about HFY kiu Sao, not your personal opinions.

Apologies, Apologies!!!

Rene, Terence, All…

Truly sorry about mentioning the article. I was not aware there was more history AND other parties involved. My intention was to focus on the Chan discussion. Terence, I did not know you were the same one involved in the article either.

:frowning: My apologies to all involved. :frowning:

Hopefully water under the bridge?


Terence, thank you for sharing your information on this thread about Kiu Sao. Let me share my understanding of the bridge:

Bridge: point of control where the opponent’s center of gravity can be identified and manipulated.

To me, striking and mere contact with someone does not constitute a bridge. From my understanding, a bridge:

  1. gives me the ability to gather info: read movement, weight distribution, and energy about the person and

  2. is a point where I have sufficient control to manipulate their center of gravity to where is ideal for me and

  3. allows me to move in harmony/sync with their movements and energies without losing my own harmony

Will bridging always occur? I say only if they give you a reason to establish one. One example… If a punch is coming in long, wide and high from the side, I say go into the strike with a ‘Kiu sao’ ready for the intercept (ie: a Biu Sao Structure) whilst striking the centerline (preferably the head) with body momentum. Upon contact of the weapon into the Biu Sao Structure, your own momentum should shift the opponent’s center of gravity towards that contact point. As long as you maintain your structure throughout the ranges of motion you should not lose control of the Kiu.

Kiu Sao, that has been discussed here, shares a place in all Wing Chun, and other styles, in one form or another. I am glad we are all openly sharing our kung fu here :slight_smile:

If anyone is willing to share, what type of steps does your WC lineage follow to train Chi Sao?


Again, please excuse me about the article. I had no ill intentions.
-Savi.:frowning:

Savi - Apology accepted, and water definately under the bridge. I didn’t think it was meant to invoke old problems. Nuff respect for the continued mature manner in which you conduct yourself.

Your comments on bridging match many of my own thoughts. I always try to do the least I need to, and force my opponent to the most they have to, yet I remain ever ready to do more if I’m unfortunately forced to.

We train Chi Sao as we train most things, in a step by step manner. In terms of movement, we take almost every one from the form and train the single motions until they move properly and begin to become reflex. Then, over time, we add additional movements, explore error recovery if we make a mistake, etc. In other words, move from the simple to the more complex (though we try to avoid the really complex 8) ).

Rolling_Hand - As if your repeated attempts to discredit HFY through feigned association weren’t bad enough, your mention of Jee Shim, despite Hoffmann sifu’s express request to have his family left out of trolling, is an all time low. Now, please stop stalking me, and please remember Hendrik is a married man (making your obsession with him all the more disturbing).

RR

Savi wrote:

Terence, I did not know you were the same one involved in the article either.

My apologies to all involved.

Hopefully water under the bridge?

No need to apologize; I wasn’t offended. :slight_smile: TN


Terence, thank you for sharing your information on this thread about Kiu Sao. Let me share my understanding of the bridge:

Bridge: point of control where the opponent’s center of gravity can be identified and manipulated.

To me, striking and mere contact with someone does not constitute a bridge. From my understanding, a bridge:

  1. gives me the ability to gather info: read movement, weight distribution, and energy about the person and

  2. is a point where I have sufficient control to manipulate their center of gravity to where is ideal for me and

  3. allows me to move in harmony/sync with their movements and energies without losing my own harmony


Seems consistent with what I was saying. TN


Will bridging always occur? I say only if they give you a reason to establish one. (Savi)


From my perspective, since I always seek to control the opponent then I always seek to bridge – we have the second form (chum kiu) telling us that as well as the kuen kuit (for example, when there is no bridge, establish one). TN


One example… If a punch is coming in long, wide and high from the side, I say go into the strike with a ‘Kiu sao’ ready for the intercept (ie: a Biu Sao Structure) whilst striking the centerline (preferably the head) with body momentum.


Again, from my perspective, your punch should be a bridge (kiu) in that it connects to the opponent’s center (and fwiw, the choice of target, like most everything else, depends on the circumstances) to destroy his structure. However, as I practice WCK, “body momentum” is not a power source. TN


Upon contact of the weapon into the Biu Sao Structure, your own momentum should shift the opponent’s center of gravity towards that contact point. As long as you maintain your structure throughout the ranges of motion you should not lose control of the Kiu. (Savi)


I strive to “use stillness to overcome movement”, not momentum to overcome movement. TN


Kiu Sao, that has been discussed here, shares a place in all Wing Chun, and other styles, in one form or another. I am glad we are all openly sharing our kung fu here (Savi)


IMHO there is no “all WCK”, rather there is just WCK. And I agree your sentiments about sharing. TN

Terence

For Savi

Savi,

I read the article in question by Sifu Lowenhagen.

I was struck by one of his comments:

“In truth, Chan (Zen) teaching itself requires the passing on of knowledge in a person-to-person, face-to-face format. In other words, Chan (Zen) will never truly lend itself to the “freebie” learning concept of email and the Internet. True students will still have to carry the burden of seeking knowledge from true teachers and true participation in action, not just written words. Likewise, true students will need to remain dedicated to supporting those teachers or they simply won’t exist.”

Out of curiosity how long has Sifu Lowenhagen been a Chan Buddhist?

What does he think of:

“The Buddha is a dried piece of dung of the barbarians, and sainthood is only an empty name.”

“What is Buddha?” “This Flax weighs three pounds.”

Would Ming Yi apply to either?

More to the point, is Ming Yi part of Chan dao?