I do know of several ‘white crane stylists’ in the UK, but they are laughable, I reckon they jumped on the band wagon.
Not long back from a lomg weekend training with Ryozu Tsukada (Shitoryu) which we spent on the Bunkai of Tomari Rohai, Itosu Rohai, Goju Sesan and Matsumura Sesan. Although I had worked on these Kata before what was refreshing was Tsukada Senseis intimate knowledge of the subtle (and sometimes not so) differences and the nuances of the different schools. Bunkai, bunkai and then more Bunkai. Good training.
Also recently been training with a Shotkan godan under Taji Kase, who recognise the limitation of their style but boy can they make it work for them.
Train hard, train soft, but train.
Sesan is one of my favorite forms! It has numerous hidden grappling techs. Your style of Shito Ryu practices Matsumura Sesan? Awesome!!! What is the difference between Goju’s Sesan and Matsumura’s Sesan. Rohai is a beautiful form, I wonder if it’s similar to the Shorin version(s) ?
I think I remember of one Dojo my Sensei did a seminar at a few years back. This was in the late 80’s but the dude might still be around. If I remember correctly it was in Hatfield, England, but I can’t remember any instructor or school names. I’ll ask Kyoshi Lindsey this weekend when I train.
In Sensei Lindsey’s organization (Kokusai ShuriTe Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai, All Shorin Ryu Style) we are continuously learning and researching the White Crane aspects of our style. He corresponds and trains with a Sifu Wong of Fujian White Crane in NYC. Many people from multiple styles, Kyokushin, Goju Ryu, Shotokan, Shito Ryu, all styles of Karate, study under Lindsey, and many travel hundreds of miles to do so. He is truly a hidden font of fighting info! He can be reached at this address: Ronald Lindsey, PO Box 689, Bastrop, Tx. 78602. Ask about our professional journal “Maishin Shorinji” and any other questions you may have. The info in the journal is history, strategy, and bunkai, as well as a reflections section which concentrates on a notable Okinawan stylist. Unlike Black Belt mag it is very well written with no advertisements. Peace and I hope this helps…
Hi OP,
Difficult to explain in any detail over the net without writing out each Kata, move for move.
Basic differences, Goju sesan is very short and is performed in sanchin dachi, the moves are similar but the central section of the Matsumura version is missing and of course the matsumura version is performed in ayooba(sp?) dachi.
The versions of Rohai, I know know five versions called Rohai, the most different ones are the Itosu Rohai sho, ni and sandan. Some moves are similar to the Tomari version and also another version I learned from a goju kai instructor.
O.W.: Rogue asked a question about differences in Isshin Ryu Seisan and other Seisans and I gave him an outline of the steps in Matsumura Seisan. Maybe you’ve already peeped, but it’s on this same O.R.A. section of KFO if you’re interested. Our Rohai Kata are Rohai Jo, Rohai Chu and Rohai Ge. They are used to prepare the student for learning the Hakutsuru (White Crane) forms. The Rohai are very cool kata! Talk with ya’ later…
Wolf: The stance we use is called a Pinan Dachi. It’s Matsumura’s version of the forward or front stance. Also, we use an L-Stance in the middle segment of Seisan. Do you know of a site where I can see the steps for the Rohai you learned?
Kristoffer: What’s up brother! Shuai Jiao is PHAT!! I have done Judo, Caique JiuJitsu (Rickson Gracie’s Highest Ranking Black Belt) and wish there was a Shuai Jiao school near me! I wanna study it someday. I think that your original observation about the Sport Karate chicks was right on! Just look at Cynthia Rothrock’s ass! Damn!!!
There is real Karate out there though, and some of it is very Chinese in its approach to the MAs. I don’t know about that Tournament stuff, man. Other than exposure, its only admirable attribute might be the FIIINE females that are part of the circuit. Later all…
As for Karate being effective, I for one feel that is up to the teacher. I’ve been to many schools where I can honestly say they would not be able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
But on the other hand, I have been to several excellent schools. Many of these schools were from the old-school Okinawan styles, such as Uechi Ryu and the different Shorin Ryu lineages, such as Matsumura Seito and Ryute (formerly Ryukyu Kempo). I definitely found the way bunkai was taught in Ryukyu Kempo to be very effective.
As for Japanese Karate, there are many strong styles as well. I only have experience in a couple of these, namely Kyokushin and Ashihara (with a little bit of Shotokan). I think Kyokushin and Ashihara are very no-nonsense styles with very practical and effective techniques. Of course in Kyokushin there is a big emphasis on their Knockdown fighting, which is of course rule-bound. Otherwise it’s an awesome style. Ashihara is a spin-off from Kyokushin with a bigger emphasis on self-defense and practicality.
I want to reiterate the fact that the effectiveness of most styles are dependent of the teacher.
Kyokushin’s goju influence is as significant as its shotokan influence. Many other arts influenced Mas Oyama’s martial development and many found their way into the kyokushin curriculum (and others have disappeared in recent decades). Oyama personally used and taught extensive breathing techniques (ibuki, tensho, sanchin, etc.) and internal development exercises (various seated and squating breathing routines). His Karate is real deal, MANY of his students are the real deal, and MANY of the student’s students are the real deal. Nobody is claiming it is traditonal, but to deny their track record is illogical. They blended old and new training techniques in an effort to create a Renaissance in Karate away from “physical education” Karate being promoted in Japan at the time. The 100 man kumite is not dead. Shigeru Oyama is one instructor I can name off the top of my head that has done the marathon more than once and actually twice in one week if I recall.
In our dojo,once a month, we have 2 Kyokushin guys who travel about 200 miles to train. They explained to me that the majority of the fighting techs come from the emphasis of the Northern Kata (Shotokan and/or Shorin Ryu derivation). They also learn Sotuhern Kata such as Tensho and Seipai, but explained that their style was much closer to its Shotokan lineage. Regardless, many knowledgeable Ryukyuan stylists feel that the designation of Shorei (NahaTe/Goju Ryu) and Shorin (ShuriTe/Shorin Ryu) are meaningless (they mean the same thing) and that all Ryukyuan Ti descended arts are basically the same. The only significant difference may be in later interpretations, and in the commercialization of the art. When was the last Hyakunin Kumite? Just wondering 'cause these dudes told me it was basically extinct.
I asked them why they were training Matsumura Seito and they explained that my instructors knowledge of bunkai and body-change was exceptional and it has made them much tighter fighters and competitors. Later…
In 1993-ish my friend (and on a few occasions me) were training under Sensei Tom DiGiaccomo (sp.?) from World Oyama Karate. During that time, they were trying to get together enough people for a hundred man kumite. It was not Tom doing it and, I don’t know who he was recruiting for, but I believe it was happening at Shigeru Oyama’s headquarters in NYC. I think that Shigeru Oyama did the two 100man kumite in a week, when he first set up shop in NY- which was quite some time ago. I don’t know if the 1993 kumite was for him or not. I don’t know how old he is.
I totally believe that a Kyokushin karateka who studied Traditional Okinawan Karate would learn quite a bit (of that we are in total agreement), however I choose not to discount the talents that Kyokushin fighters have on their own.
I believe the last Hyakunin Kumite was done by Hajim kazumi in March '99. They are done few and far between (at least in the IKO), as I believe the one prior to that was done by Francisco Filho in 1995. I believe he did this twice that year (in Feb. and March), one completed in Brazil and the other in Japan.
I have a few questions about karate that maybe sombody could help with but some have nothing to do with each other so I will list them in a 1,2,3 order
In CMA people tend to think that lineage is the most important thing and that if your lineage is good than your individual practice will be better than that of someone with a not so clear line. Do Karate practitioners think like this to? Or is the individual practice more important? (example of some kungfu guys thinking)
I trained with Sifu brown at usa kungfu and learned some kind of kungfu but I won a world championship with it.
(kungfu guy)
You don’t have a solid lineage, so you must suck. I train under famous master x, I didn’t win any fights cause I have never been in any but you must listen to me cause I have a solid lineage.
Is most Karate interchangable? Can a practitioner of Shotokan switch to another style with no problems as far as principles?
Is there any emphasis on leaning low stances like in some kungfu or are the stances higher?
What is the most important aspect of Karate fighting?
I know, I get sick of it myself. I feel lineage has little to do with what you can actually DO. It seems most people use it to validate their practice you’ll here alot of kungfu guys say stuff like “Well my teachers, teachers, teacher won some lei tai challenges and private matches so I can fight”. I was wondering does this happen often in JMA? Or do they “walk the walk” instead?
It happens everywhere, I have several friends that study and/or teach Karate (different styles too) and they see the same problems as we do.
I was talking to a good friend of mine that teaches Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-I Chuan, that studied under a famous Master in Taiwan. We had the discussion about how in the last decade or so there has been this rise of the lineage issue. His words were “to guys like you and me what’s important is how good our teacher is and if he can teach us the stuff, not the dead people on the wall”… how true, how true
What does that mean though? Not trying to be argumentative, but I’m curious.
Say you’ve got a teacher who charges a lot, advertises a lot, has trophies all over the windows, has contracts, etc. (all stereotypical trademarks of the mcdojo). he teaches you the roundhouse kick. you practice it. you become good at it. now you can DO the round kick. well.
so how does lineage guarantee OR rule out anything?
“Yeah but if your style came from Ronald McDonald then your not practicing a kug fu”
True in a way. Yet I personally don’t see the point in claiming to teach Kungfu if you teach somthing else(but it does happen). Some people in Kungfu assume because they can trace a long lineage that they are combat superior to somone who can’t. I am not sure which branch of Mantis you practice exactly(I don’t know much about mantis) but let’s say some from another line which taces back farther(don’t know if this could happen but stay with me) and they started telling you how to do things and that they were better than you, how would you deal with it? My guess would be in a put up or shut up attitude, right?
I don’t have anything against history and lineage as I am activly researching my own. I have even posted what I know on my site.(for sure I left out most of the stuff I couldn’t verify) What I am opposed to is people who don’t fight and don’t spar yet assume they can cause their martial grandfather did. :rolleyes:
I believe that lineage is probably more relavent in certain areas of CMS because some styles are incredibly complex, and the only way you can really know you are learning the true style, the way the originator intended it, is by having proof of lineage.
However being from good lineage in no way guarantees the person can fight, and people do claim this.
Put it this way my first kung fu sifu was a european & world heavyweight kung fu champion, but he is also 6’ 6" tall and 250 pounds. While i’m 5’10" and 150 pounds. So I don’t really fight like him!
Also lineage within Karate cannot really be as relevent being that Gichin Funakoshi only formulated modern karate less than 100 years ago.
Saying this I spent my first 4-5 years in MA’s studing Shotokan under Kanasawa sensi, and he’s the best!
If the sifu’s good and he/she really knows their stuff then it doesn’t matter who taught them.
Likewise a pet hate of mine.
Every person that EVER trained for any time at all under Bruce Lee is automaticaly given some sort of God like status.
This seems crazy as he surely had crap students too.
Just like all these guys that have trained with people like Dan Inasanto, just because they attended a few seminars it doesn’t mean there invincible.
I have to admit though when I was looking for an instructor to teach me Xing Yi Quan, I specifically chose someone that had excellent credentials, I did this to ensure that I received the correct training.
