With all this verbal bashing and biased criticizing upon Karate, do you guys really think that Karate is inferior (with exclusion of McDojos) in anyway compared to Kung Fu? That a good Karate-ka and his style (with plenty of throwing and grabbing) has no chance against a good Kung Fu practitioner of a certain style; another words, if they are both good, then it should depend on the style, their technique, principles, etc, etc aka kung fu?
I can beat up people who practice kung-fu!!!
then again i’ve only fought 1 person in my school…and he sucks:D
But seriuosly if you have a good karate student and a good kung-fu person go at it, it would be a good fight
Pure Karate, against pure Kung Fu, both 9 years experiance (Same hours), Kung Fu wins becaue is contains all ranges of combat (Yes, even groundfighting, although it’s mostly like brutal full weighted knee drops on people’s necks and such, but it is there). Karate on the other hand only does kicks and blocks and punches.
Now, if the Karate guy has crosse trained in Judo, Akido and such things, he has full range training too, and the only advantage the Kung Fu guy has is superior more well rounded conditioning and more fluid and mobile movements. In this case, the winner is most likely going to be the one with the most fighting experiance. If the fighting experiance is even, I’ll bet on the better conditioned, more fluid and mobile Kung Fu guy. However, if the greater fighting experiance is had by the Karate guy, my money’s on him, so long as he’s cross trained in comperable grapeling and throwing arts that are inherently, already contained in all Kung Fu styles.
Karate is Just Striking? Since when?
“Karate . . . only does kicks and blocks and punches.”
Since when?
For as long as I’ve been learning karate (caw-raw-tea), I’ve seen kata (forms) which present grappling, trapping, clinch fighting, the works. yes, karate (car-ah-tey) is lacking the more athletic techniques present in many Kung Fu forms, but does this weigh that heavily if the karate student is athletic otherwise (weight training, cardiovascular training, et al)?
So, who wins? All things being equal . . . the better fighter 
Ummm ur kinda wrong there, the “pure” Karate that kept its elements like good Shorin Ryu or Goju schools, have all the good throws and locks, however nowadays, most McDojo schools and such would only focus on kicks and punches
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]Pure Karate, against pure Kung Fu, both 9 years experiance (Same hours), Kung Fu wins becaue is contains all ranges of combat (Yes, even groundfighting, although it’s mostly like brutal full weighted knee drops on people’s necks and such, but it is there). Karate on the other hand only does kicks and blocks and punches.
Now, if the Karate guy has crosse trained in Judo, Akido and such things, he has full range training too, and the only advantage the Kung Fu guy has is superior more well rounded conditioning and more fluid and mobile movements. In this case, the winner is most likely going to be the one with the most fighting experiance. If the fighting experiance is even, I’ll bet on the better conditioned, more fluid and mobile Kung Fu guy. However, if the greater fighting experiance is had by the Karate guy, my money’s on him, so long as he’s cross trained in comperable grapeling and throwing arts that are inherently, already contained in all Kung Fu styles. [/B]
you know that’s BS, right?
which part? lol.
pretty much all of it.
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karate does feature more than kicks, blocks and punches
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good karate is quite fluid.
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even though the kung fu guy trains all those ranges, how adept is he in them? Just because you know a technique doesn’t mean you’ll fight with it. I have learned willow palm strikes, various clawing strikes, etc. Have I ever fought with them? No. Why? because I don’t use them when I spar. No matter how many techniques a style has, the practitioner is likely to only use the core set of techniques that he prefers and uses on a regular basis.
4.You can’t really make the assumption that the kung fu guy is better conditioned.
- the whole cma groundfighting thing…
another reason why karate probably has a bed rep because it doesnt have much media exposure like kung fu films do. now if karate was choreographed to be in an MA movie, i think people would suddenly consider it very effective again like they did when it first came to US.
Nah, MA in the movies has been bad for EVERYBODY. With the exception of “The Bourne Identity”, which had AWESOME choreography, I haven’t seen anything really representative of what a MA style is really about. All of the flash and wires make s the art look bad. People go to schools expecting to learn that stuff, thusly increasing the demand for McSchools.
ya but think about it, this causes more commercilization for kung fu schools, most people would think oh cool, i wanna do this and that, so kung fu is the way to go. the rest who pick karate is school is because either it’s near where they live, kung fu seems complicated, or they are skeptic about pulling that stunt they saw on kung fu movie, or simply they think hmmm id like to practice kicking more, or simply because karate is such a common word and that their friends are in there too, etc. But it’s the media attention which kung fu enjoys more, and hence those techniques of the movie seem to defeat the bad guy are lot more effective than a karate chop.
I mean overall, it’s the children’s fascination that makes the “cha-ching” for pseudo-masters.
RD really dropped the ball on this one.
Anyway,it´s all the same hypothetical song with little relevance.
I don´t see how one would have an advantage over other,to add something to this.
Gee, I don’t know.
BK Frantzis was writing about this, though i don’t know how good info that is. He wrote that he was a 3rd dan BB in shorin, with judo exp. when he ran into some chinese internal masters. Now, these were masters, so again that might be unfair, who knows.
He was getting his butt kicked by ba gua stylists, even students and much older ones at that. The master just got bored of it all- he could circle him and touch him at will.
Apparently, the same kind of thing happened with hsingyi stylists as well, so…who knows. One case doesn’t prove it, and he was writing a book on CMAs so he wouldn’t say “well, karate’s better, but…”
Originally posted by StickyHands
[B]ya but think about it, this causes more commercilization for kung fu schools, most people would think oh cool, i wanna do this and that, so kung fu is the way to go. the rest who pick karate is school is because either it’s near where they live, kung fu seems complicated, or they are skeptic about pulling that stunt they saw on kung fu movie, or simply they think hmmm id like to practice kicking more, or simply because karate is such a common word and that their friends are in there too, etc. But it’s the media attention which kung fu enjoys more, and hence those techniques of the movie seem to defeat the bad guy are lot more effective than a karate chop.
I mean overall, it’s the children’s fascination that makes the “cha-ching” for pseudo-masters. [/B]
That’s exactly my point. All of that leads to McKwooning.
Originally posted by ZIM
[B]Gee, I don’t know.
BK Frantzis was writing about this, though i don’t know how good info that is. He wrote that he was a 3rd dan BB in shorin, with judo exp. when he ran into some chinese internal masters. Now, these were masters, so again that might be unfair, who knows.
He was getting his butt kicked by ba gua stylists, even students and much older ones at that. The master just got bored of it all- he could circle him and touch him at will.
Apparently, the same kind of thing happened with hsingyi stylists as well, so…who knows. One case doesn’t prove it, and he was writing a book on CMAs so he wouldn’t say “well, karate’s better, but…” [/B]
This is probably where the experience and training methods cards come into play.
Originally posted by ZIM
[B]Gee, I don’t know.
BK Frantzis was writing about this, though i don’t know how good info that is. He wrote that he was a 3rd dan BB in shorin, with judo exp. when he ran into some chinese internal masters. Now, these were masters, so again that might be unfair, who knows.
He was getting his butt kicked by ba gua stylists, even students and much older ones at that. The master just got bored of it all- he could circle him and touch him at will.
Apparently, the same kind of thing happened with hsingyi stylists as well, so…who knows. One case doesn’t prove it, and he was writing a book on CMAs so he wouldn’t say “well, karate’s better, but…” [/B]
when u play with rhetorics such as instructors against a master, the whole ball games changes. i mean an old traditional CMA INTERNAL master who knows his (pardon the french - sh!tz), obviously even 20 years experienced kung fu (externalist) guy would be wiped on the floor.
From my experience, little separates GOOD and AUTHENTIC karate, not the mcdojo junk, from certain styles of kung fu. It incorporates many of the same principles and techniques as kung fu including striking with all the parts of the body, throws, joint manipulations, grappling and chi gung. Of course there are differences in how certain aspects are performed, but we are talking about 2 totally different cultures here, the Japanese and the Chinese.
The most glaring difference to me is that karate tends towards one hit kills. They train for powerful, fight ending strikes or throws. They condition thier arms and hands to become very effective weapons not only for offense, but defense as well. Karate's forceful blocks destroy the attacker's limbs paving the road for thier devastating attacks.
Karate gets a bad rep i think because it appears elementary. It is simple and direct. Understand, techniques like the classic chambered, reverse punch to the chest were designed to penetrate samurai armor. Being without armor themselves gave them the mobility and time in comparison to their enemies to consider chambered attacks with proper rotation as thier main form of power generation.
Is this as effective in modern times where people are not generally encountered in armor? I think yes but it needs slight modifications. Thier attacks, since we arent prancing around in armor anymore, would be partially telegraphed and easier to avoid. However, those same attacks would probably kill you or at least put you down since we arent wearing the protection that didnt even aid the samurai. In my conclusion, karate is superbly effective when taught and trained as it was intended. But you will rarely find the man who walks that path.
I agree with, intellectually speaking, both responses- yes, training and experience count, and internal versus external counts, too.
But here’s the thing: he says he was 20-ish, 3rd dan shorin, judo trained. He’d seen and trained with wing chun, TCC, a little external kung fu- so he couldn’t be totally off guard, you’d think. And, he was doing a lot of tournaments- back in the late 60’s, early 70’s- you know, the old stuff. At the time, he was in okinawa or somewhere learning advanced stuff.
So: he goes to the 60+ year old ba gua guy, he tells him: “karate is good for beating up old ladies and kids.” Then he shows him a little ba gua by slapping him around, then he has him fight… old ladies and kids. They were ba gua students of maybe 2-3 years. They kicked his butt, he says. 
Now, I’m NOT saying that proves anything, cuz i still think the man counts for more. It only proved something to HIM.
FYI: info comes from “power of internal martial arts”, BK Frantzis.
EDIT: thats kind of a common attitude with internalists, though, that ‘we are doing high-level stuff, you are not’.
Wait a minute, Karate is pretty fluid, and has ground work. Not as much as kung-fu or judo but, theres one thing that seperates good authentic karate and McDojo sh*t. Can anyone guess?
no kids classes.
Hey this is cool! on another mailing list, i just got a link to the ba gua guy he referred to- some clips if you want to see them. I have not, as of yet.