I saw a recent tape called the Art of War. It showed Karate cats (from Europe) fighting in tournaments. It was an excellent tape. It showed serious Karate fighters that were fast, used technique and well conditioned. Now I’ve touched with Karate fighters and I’ve seen them fight. ( I mean real hardcore fighters). Now my question to all is that what techniques would one use to fight these individuals? Is pa kua effective against them? Can we take a punch or kick from a karate fighter? I know as Internalist we have a tendency to criticize karate because its hard and rigid…but on the other hand most fighters in the US are karate fighters…they are in tournaments, they are aggressive, they aren’t punks, and there is little theory and more action…
So my brothers I ask can a Pa Kua figther of today compete with a Karate fighter of today? Can our high level of Chi, softness, and palms beat such a fighter?
how can you denigrate an entire family of systems?
Here we are dealing with the Rolls saga (again), which escalates because he makes uninformed posts about the CMA. Please don’t make us look as bad.
Karate is a huge family of styles - some are good
, some are bad. They are all disciplined and rigorous. They are not all hard. The guys I train with are relaxed, not tense - it is an external style though.
You would be shocked if you ran into a serious Karateka, don’t underestimate the external styles just because the style you follow is internal.
The guys I train with train Taiji as well - they suffer a bit in terms of sensitivity (as I did when I started) but their Wado-Ryu Karate is exceptional now. They have softened enough for it to be used as (they believe) it was originally intended. We train Chin Na and they have now created a ‘locking Kata’ from the principles and techniques they have learned - it is very effective.
The crucial part of fighting Karate people is to get in as close as possible - if they are well trained then their kicking is very hard to deal with. They can also take a fair bit of punishment.
I read your post very informative…I hope that you were not referring to my post because as you can clearly see I was not making any insults to Karate. I was giving Karate fighters respect because of their skill and no nonsense approach. I’m just asking my Pa Kua brothers who are fighters if they had any ideas how to deal with Karate fighters. If you are not referring to me please ignore this comment.
Thanks…
P.S. To anyone reading and answering this post - I just want to get ideas and learn. This post will hopefully educate all of us on how to use Pa Kua Chang effectively and efficiently.
I’m not too sure I’d try to force the clinch. Okinawan Karate has a helluva lot of influence from the Southern Chinese systems. The reverse punch draws back so far because it is used as a short “rabbit” punch.
There is a huge difference between traditional Okinawan Karate and the Japanese versions. Thin about it. If the Japanese did to you what they did to the Okinawans, would you teach them the good stuff. My first style was an Okinawan style called Shuri Te. I have found it just as vicious and usable as the Chinese systems. Power development is even similar, believe it or not.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
Oh, Sorry Raz. Try to fight them off-angle. Use the same strategy you would against Hsing I. Spin off them and attack on the oblique. If you try to clinch head on they will blast through you.
Unfortunately, (unfortunate that I have to say this) If you know it’s a Japanese stylest, fight them like you would Taekwondo.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
Yeah I like what you said by fighting with angles myself I would step to a 45 degree angle. What choice do I have? Karate fighters are strong so I would not want to get touched (in a real fight its almost impossible not to get touch - I know it sounds conflicting but I’m still learning). If I’m quick enough I would use Pi Chaun on the attacking arm and try to step to the side with a Pau Chan (cannon fist)…Just some ideas…
Also Stai-Nyce - I hear what you are saying about a serious pa kua person over Karate master but let me say this…what about a average pa kua fighter over a karate fighter? How many pa kua fighters are conditioned to withstand blows and keep on coming with their own technique? I learn learn not to sleep on anybody …whether are martial artist or not…I live in brooklyn and I haven’t met a cat in the streets that couldn’t take punches and would not hit back with their own…so again I don’t sleep on anybody skills at all
Sort of a tough question to answer, because I’ve never seen anything to make me believe karate guys are any tougher or stronger than other MA’s. I’m not saying this isn’t the case, but I’ve never seen it.
If I’m fighting a very aggressive, powerful enemy (regardless of style) my strategy is to yield and evade until they surrender their balance (or I take it with a hook or well placed koubu) and get a vital opening. Throw a damaging strike, adhiere, and follow into more strikes or chin na as opportunity allows.
I know that sounds a bit vague at best, but general questions will typically yield general answers ;). The important thing (IMO) is to remain very soft and avoid any “force against force” actions. Once you’re through the door and inside trapping range, do your best to stay very close and use every weapon you’ve got.
we have a saying that goes, "If you think you can beat your opponent, go in through the front door, if you think you can’t beat him, go in through the side door.
Off topic but relavent, in my favorite kung fu movie of all times, The shaolin player has a contest with each Japanese style individually. When it comes to the karate fighter he beats him with drunken style. It’s a riot but I can’t give the title. It was changed like 3 times and I haven’t seen it for a long time.
Was it “Challenge of the Ninja” where the guy was married to a Japanese girl and they got in a fight and she returned to Japan. She said that he was saying that Japanese styles were ineffective and they sent like 5 ppl to show him what’s up. He fought one guy who had a katana and after defeating him didn’t take his sword which was big insult(taking his sword was a sign of friendship). At the end he did end up taking it. The last guy he fought was a ninja. That the one?? That’s one of my favorite movies.
The name of the movie is called Challenge of the Ninjas - its a Shaw Brother flick with Gordon Liu …dont worry brother we will have a product list on our site soon for the movies…See Duel of the Seven Masters - a good movie of Kung fu vs Karate..Kung Fu cat has to learn all the major styles of Chinese Boxing…the black taoist will be sending another butter tape to you…
That is the title I have it under. Really good messages in that movie and I loved the scene where he went to learn drunken style from the drunken master. I have to dig it out and watch it.
My experience with karate stylists (and Chinese hard styles as well) is that they are almost always vulnerable in their connection to the ground. While they are fast and can hit, they tend to have a lousy root (probably too much stiffness in the hips). I find the smallest angle changes are necessary to achieve an advantage. My experience is also that their structure tends to be rigid to the point of being brittle, so that they are quite unresponsive and change their energy rather crudely.
Ma Hong says about Song (energized relaxedness) “if this is not understood the fists will be hard and the feet will coil and leap.”
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
That would be interesting, cause the japanese, and brazilian love to rumble at that sport. Those have some karate guys, mauy thai, jujitsu, can pakua survive?
Thats the question Ma…I think its about how realistic people train for combat… again maui thai, karate, and jujitsu fighters - fight…they work hard to condition themselves and they just talk but they put up…they also fight in tournaments to prove if they have thier skillzzzzzzz
I have long been of the idea that tournament fighting is really nothing more then a sport and shouldn’t be confused with actual fighting.
The first priority of a sport besides fun is safety, thats a given, thats why there is rules, and pads and judges, safety so people don’t die or just greviously injured.
Safety of the other man is not my concern in physical conflict, good possibilty of premenant injury and or even death is a first priority that should be in the attacking/offending man’s mind, this is because I expect no less of him doing the same to me.
Seems to me that a lot of what I do now naturaly might not be aceptable in a controlled and safety minded enviroment.
How you train is how you will re-act to any stimuli that trips that trigger, is there a diffrence between fighting for sport and the outside real world encounter?
I always thought there was, maybe I’m wrong, please enlighten if so, I’m interested in hearing more.
When I practice shooting, It is draw-aim-fire. Always. I have pulled my gun on an individual once. I drew, I aimed, I did not fire. Even though that is what I practiced.
Do not forget that we are human beings. As such, we have the ability to think critically and respond appropriately to a situation. That ability will also serve you well in life as it is a good cure for foot-in-the-mouth disease.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
