Is Western Boxing Tong Bei?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

[QUOTE=Cataphract;1287987]Ok, let’s just derail this thread some more.

There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations

This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the Wiki links. I have yet found time to read that pdf file. I skimmed it.

I would say sorry to be the impetus for derailing the thread but I may not be completely to blame but I did my part, lol and really when these things happen threads that may not have potential to grow because they are answered in 2 posts change direction because one writes something of further interest that has parallel relationship to the topic. I know some hate that. Neat and tidy but I think that way of thought chokes learning and understanding. Even if there is disagreement in what anyone believes. It present alternate possibilities.

Most nomadic or isolated tribes. Those that tended to remain outside of any civilization tend to stagnate in development across the board. So aside from the most primitive of skills there impact on civilization is next to nil. Now we do not have to go back tens of thousands of years even though some believe evidence exist that we may have got around a lot more than once believed. But just to time frames of around Jesus. We find people got around rather well, Traveling vast distances in relatively short time frames. Not days like now but perhaps months depending on water ways or a year depending on land paths. Trade is a basis of all civilization and commodity is the cause of all wars between civilization. Money and power. Even then. This is why archaeologist uncover material that should not be in one area because it has always been associated as only from another area. How did it get there ? Yes the possibility exist that someone figured out the same way. It happens but more likely it was traded somewhere along time and potentially modified so much the source has been lost and it becomes a educated guess at best.

If convergent evolution is such a great theory then why do primitive, isolated tribes have little in the way of anything advance, science or medicine or war like ? Basically they stayed hidden to avoid conflict. Not a bad thing if you want to live in a shack in the middle of nowhere. Which is for the most part how they live.

So for myself, I believe more so in we learned and expanded on that learning and dropped what had no need for in our area. Regardless the skill. We have always shared and improved on what we learned when possible. So, some country invade and kicks your ass. Captures prisoner soldiers. They have a choice after being removed by sat 1000 miles to be kept as slaves. Teach us your war arts or die. I wonder how many decide, death sucks, this is how we kick !

Could that not have been a [possibility and one that may in fact have more " belief" basis than , it came to me out of thin air. Which I also believe happens but not so much across the board or map if you prefer.

Edit. I watched some vids on the art. Just quickly. For the most part I believe most of the methods I watched share very little in common with modern or older methods of boxing going back a couple of hundred years. It looked closer to standing wrestling methods with hit inserts. I did watch another short clip and the guy was doing very similar motions with his staff that he did empty hand. Does anyone know if this art was derived from staff or spear arts as the base ?

22

[QUOTE=Cataphract;1287987]Ok, let’s just derail this thread some more.

There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations

This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf[/QUOTE]

Look at the dates on those links again. Where does that fit into the timeline we’re speaking about?

23

[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287988]Everything you write makes sense but is it correct ? I don’t know.[/quote]

Good thing there’s internet for searching.

Recently, maybe 3 month ago I was watching some documentary on tv. I think it was about Mayan or Ancient Puruvians.

The people you are looking for are the Valdivia of c 3000 BC Ecuador. TV documentaries are not academic grade resources. You are referring to the hypothesis proposed by Meggers back in the 60’s.

What they were saying was they found essentially Japanese artwork on the pottery. That was the same as what Japan was creating at the same time.

Not same. Similar. They weren’t talking just about artwork. They were talking about overall traits. So lets see, two coastal peoples with similar tool needs, and its surprising that what they would create would be similar? (And no, they were not “essentially” the same, there were differences.)

Convergent Evolution ? One monkey discovered something and puff- we all know it know. Super conscious Jung stuff ? Maybe. Or maybe they covered more distance and a much faster rate than tens of thousands of years.

Or maybe you should do more reading than spouting off, in the process revealing you have no clue what I’m talking about.

It all really is a guess and whom you choose to believe I think,

No, you either have a value for evidence or you don’t. I suppose those that don’t would by result be ignorant enough of the matter to think its all guesswork.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287999]Thanks for the Wiki links. …
stuff
…[/quote]

You’re rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you’re trying to say.

Could that not have been a [possibility and one that may in fact have more " belief" basis than , it came to me out of thin air. Which I also believe happens but not so much across the board or map if you prefer.

Here you go with the ridiculous “out of this air” strawman again, masking that you don’t actually know what I’m saying. I’m going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That’s called efficiency.

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[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1288050]You’re rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you’re trying to say.

Here you go with the ridiculous “out of this air” strawman again, masking that you don’t actually know what I’m saying. I’m going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That’s called efficiency.[/QUOTE]

SoCo,
You have very good points about convergent evolution and different cultures finding similar solutions to problems out of efficiency. I would agree with what you said about the different cultures finding similar but different plants to cure a common illness. However, Billy originally said that they were finding pottery that was similar (S. America and Japan.) Sorry I am writing this on the fly and don’t have a link to any examples. But my question to you (and I will respect your input- I have grown to appreciate it) is, how would you account for a similarity in the expression of art, such as pottery styles (in both the shape of the pot/vase as well as the artwork on such an object)? This may even be seen in elements of architecture, etc. across cultures (an Indian architectual design compared with a Mayan design for instance). There are even striking common similarities in some of the ancient heiroglyphic alphabets of the oldest civilizations throughout the known world. It is in this sort of an area that somebody like myself or Billy or whoever might step back and say “well, maybe this isn’t a coincidence.” Also, alot of old cultures not only got around on foot but were able to travel great distances through the water ways and were very keen/ highly intellegent navigators (through river systems, in some cases, like the Polynesians across the Pacific ocean, etc.) What are your thoughts on these specific issues? Thanks.

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[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1288048]Look at the dates on those links again. Where does that fit into the timeline we’re speaking about?[/QUOTE]
Nowhere in particular. Someone started talking about Jews in China and Japanese pottery in South America and I thought they might fit the general theme. Hence the remark on derailing.

As a matter of fact I was always thinking of convergent evolution. Maybe my starting post should have been: Would somebody familiar to the original core ideas of Tong Bei say that western boxing exhibits “through the back” characteristics?

By the way, I read (on the internet) that the Japanese were unfamiliar to boxing with closed fists before Meiji restoration. Maybe the western way of boxing isn’t as universal as some might believe.

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[QUOTE=Cataphract;1287919]So how do you punch somebody through your back?[/QUOTE]

valsalva maneuver

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[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1288050]You’re rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you’re trying to say.

Here you go with the ridiculous “out of this air” strawman again, masking that you don’t actually know what I’m saying. I’m going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That’s called efficiency.[/QUOTE]

I ramble a lot. Probably brain damage. Thanks for pointing direction to look at.

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Did y’all notice…

He (SoCo) never responded to or looked at the orginal evidence that was brought up (the similarity in pottery/art styles.) What he did was, he introduced some other points to the topic of the conversation so he could say/ make the points that he wanted to. Notice how there is no mention on his behalf of the pottery styles— he basically just ignored it and looked at things like styles of spear points, from other regions of the world (and I would have to agree with his points in that particular case) and how people used plants (again I would have to agree.) But he totally ignored the pottery/ similarities of art and what this might imply if further researched… which is why it won’t be further researched. The thing is, he made good points but not from the examples others were talking about, all while sounding like it is the final word on the subject, while trying to make other people look like idiots, which is dangerous. I tried to be nice about it and wasn’t even met with a response.

30

[QUOTE=MarathonTmatt;1288067]Did y’all notice…

He (SoCo) never responded to or looked at the orginal evidence that was brought up (the similarity in pottery/art styles.) What he did was, he introduced some other points to the topic of the conversation so he could say/ make the points that he wanted to. Notice how there is no mention on his behalf of the pottery styles— he basically just ignored it and looked at things like styles of spear points, from other regions of the world (and I would have to agree with his points in that particular case) and how people used plants (again I would have to agree.) But he totally ignored the pottery/ similarities of art and what this might imply if further researched… which is why it won’t be further researched. The thing is, he made good points but not from the examples others were talking about, all while sounding like it is the final word on the subject, while trying to make other people look like idiots, which is dangerous. I tried to be nice about it and wasn’t even met with a response.[/QUOTE]

My main thing is, I do not believe as much in isolated development. He may be correct in that I used examples to make my case that are time appropriate .Stylistic differences will happen. But, I still believe things were shared and altered. How they got shared may be hard to source. I used the Jews in that era to point out , the possibility exist that the Chinese may have adopted ideas from them. And vice versa. How many of those Jews may have decided after 5-10 years, China is not for us and left. Taking with them ideas and methods they picked up while there. Only to have to modify things once they settled elsewhere. Do to the now environment they were in. If in the case of pottery it could happen. Why not then in the case of martial arts or anything ?

Hope that makes sense. Is it true ? I don’t know. But, I do believe the possibility exist and has stronger circumstantial evidence than many other possibilities. Could arts have developed isolated and complete form? I believe it is possible but it becomes unlikely in my opinion. What really makes it hard is even things 200 years old have convoluted history.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1288068]My main thing is, I do not believe as much in isolated development. He may be correct in that I used examples to make my case that are time appropriate .Stylistic differences will happen. But, I still believe things were shared and altered. How they got shared may be hard to source. I used the Jews in that era to point out , the possibility exist that the Chinese may have adopted ideas from them. And vice versa. How many of those Jews may have decided after 5-10 years, China is not for us and left. Taking with them ideas and methods they picked up while there. Only to have to modify things once they settled elsewhere. Do to the now environment they were in. If in the case of pottery it could happen. Why not then in the case of martial arts or anything ?

Hope that makes sense. Is it true ? I don’t know. But, I do believe the possibility exist and has stronger circumstantial evidence than many other possibilities. Could arts have developed isolated and complete form? I believe it is possible but it becomes unlikely in my opinion. What really makes it hard is even things 200 years old have convoluted history.[/QUOTE]

edit, Matt. I am glad you are posting again. I always enjoy your additions. BY the way, I asked you about Apache foot fighting in another thread on herbs I believe. You may have missed. If you know anything about that art could you pm me about it please. I used to know what it was more specifically called but the first time I was made aware of it was from a Mohawk who mentioned it by what I am calling it here. Thanks…

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Greetings,

The meaning of Tong Bei was one I never accepted. I thought it was a reference to the heaviness and strength of the fist, being powerful enough to punch into the chest and exit through the back of the opponent. Time will tell on this.

mickey

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[QUOTE=mickey;1288070]Greetings,

The meaning of Tong Bei was one I never accepted. I thought it was a reference to the heaviness and strength of the fist, being powerful enough to punch into the chest and exit through the back of the opponent. Time will tell on this.

mickey[/QUOTE]

You mean to actually punch through a guy ? I believe, possible only with a weapon. Not a bad mental picture for ideal. I just don’t see it happening. There may have been some that could pierce certain areas of a body with the fingers. If so, it is doubtful there are any left in modern times. Can you imaging the time and effort it would take to achieve such a thing ? 10-20 years. And the damage done to the hands. I am not sure dit jow would help prevent damage.

34

Hi Billy,

Not literally. Just a name indicating that their striking method is a strong one.

mickey

35

The Greek boxers Cleomedes and Damoxenus disembowled their opponents with spear hand strikes.

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[QUOTE=Cataphract;1288098]The Greek boxers Cleomedes and Damoxenus disembowled their opponents with spear hand strikes.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I do not know very much about ancient Greece boxing or their martial arts in general aside from brief history study. I just found this Googled Cleomede’s.

https://books.google.com/books?id=U-fc5X0cUjwC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=cleomedes+boxer+spear+hand+strikes&source=bl&ots=vx3fEKAgSh&sig=bzRuAWPe-tD6ueG1NmJ45SOt6ic&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIy467mqXZyAIVRl4eCh0ddwPU#v=onepage&q=cleomedes%20boxer%20spear%20hand%20strikes&f=false

If you scroll up a page it is being said that Boxing was considered more lethal than Pankration. First I have heard of this. I would have considered Pankration more so. Perhaps if these guys could penetrate flesh as deeply as suggested, (something I still have trouble believing ) , then maybe their boxing art was more complete and potentially sophisticated than we may give them credit ?

Edit, okay poking around my own gut, maybe they could have going upward under the rib cage, grabbing the rib and whatever else they could secure and ripping out. The speed of execution we might think needs to be great but maybe not ? Maybe it is all about having strong straight fingers to dig in as deeply as possible and then secure a bunch of everything and pull like the devil out. Maybe one would not need 10 years to do that ?

I never want to do that to anyone, LOL. No thanks!

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And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.

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[QUOTE=Cataphract;1288104]And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.[/QUOTE]

Is he the one credited with making karate safe for school kids ?

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Yes, that was him. He was a government official and the driving force behind Karate’s inclusion as a physical education program. He changed many the older forms. Some say he based his Pinan forms on a Chinese Channan, others argue he created them himself. Anyway they became the basic forms of his lineage. He was a very athletic man, but there were tensions with his master Matsumora (who had studied for many years in Fujian) for not being nimble enough, or so the story goes.

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[QUOTE=Cataphract;1288104]And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.[/QUOTE]

Chef Chan can eviscerate a chicken without the use of knives. I think that has more to do with physiological understanding of the skinned beast in question. It is pretty amazing to watch someone de-bone a chicken without a knife though.
We can all tear at meat. It’s fibrous muscle tissue.