Is western boxing Tong Bei, or rather “through the back”? From what I’ve read Tong Bei refers to a muscular chain from the feet, legs, hips, back, shoulders, arms to the fist. That is by my definition a standard straight punch, if torque from the hip action is not mentioned.
no lol
kjhkhkjhk
So how do you punch somebody through your back?
western boxing is simply western boxing.
“through the back” is an older conceptualization of the posterior chain and anterior chain.
Born in ancient time and changed and developed with rules etc etc over time up until we have what it is now.
What we have now is pretty much 100 years old or so.
It merely has a rule set and you can be orthodox or not in how your train and fight.
Western boxing developed independently of chinese martial arts style but lately, people are pulling from all over to make whatever it is they are training work.
We should be back at Pankration in a year or 5 at this rate. 
Yes, of course it developed independently. I mean, is Tong Bei functionally equivalent? Do western boxers use their bodies basically the same way when they throw a straight punch as Tong Bei fighters do? It is hard be a pugilist without using the posterior/anterior chain.
I hear Tong Bei used to be a training method before it became a style and used to be popular. Tong Bei influenced Taizu Chang Quan and thus probably all Shaolin based styles incorporate its ideas to some degree. So what exactly distinguishes it from fighting methods that came before? The term “through the back” is used quite often, but no one ever really explains it.
[QUOTE=Cataphract;1287944]
I hear[/QUOTE]
who
[QUOTE=Cataphract;1287915]From what I’ve read [/QUOTE]
where
wat kung fu u train
[QUOTE=bawang;1287948]who
[/QUOTE]
- Figure of speech. See 2.
[QUOTE=bawang;1287948]
where
[/QUOTE] - Internet. Here, Sal Canzonieri‘s site and some others.
[QUOTE=bawang;1287948]
wat kung fu u train[/QUOTE] - What‘s that got to do with anything?
I‘m just curious what “through the back” is.
But if you really must, launch an ad hominem and make fun of me. I am willing to train with anybody who has something to teach and I get along with. Right now that is Karate, Tai Chi and an eclectic style of kickboxing.
Here is what reminds me of western boxing:
Originally Tong Bei referred more to a method of training and an approach to power.
http://www.plumpub.com/kaimen/2004/tong-bei-quan-or-tong-bi-boxing/
The essence of Tong Bei is that power is generated from the back to pass through the shoulders and then out the arms.
In this way, heavy strikes can be delivered at arm’s length.
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle8.htm
Also, a ‘body shaking‘ method was used for transferring this internally generated energy; the opening and closing of the Kua caused the heels to alternately press into the ground in such a way that the body was used as a lever to transfer the body weight up the legs, around the hip/waist area (the ‘dantian‘), up through the spine, and out the striking area. The Long Fist idea itself consisted of moving this kinetic energy in an attack as one long fist, moving from one arm through the shoulders and back and out the other arm.
This idea was the original use of “tong bi” – “through the arm”, which was pointing and piercing movements for striking. […]
All these concepts can be found today used in various ways within Tongbei Quan and the ‘Big Three Internal Martial Arts‘.
[QUOTE=Cataphract;1287949]
But if you really must, launch an ad hominem and make fun of me. I am willing to train with anybody who has something to teach and I get along with. Right now that is Karate, Tai Chi and an eclectic style of kickboxing.[/QUOTE]
lol
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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1287936]western boxing is simply western boxing.
“through the back” is an older conceptualization of the posterior chain and anterior chain.
Born in ancient time and changed and developed with rules etc etc over time up until we have what it is now.
What we have now is pretty much 100 years old or so.
It merely has a rule set and you can be orthodox or not in how your train and fight.
Western boxing developed independently of chinese martial arts style but lately, people are pulling from all over to make whatever it is they are training work.
We should be back at Pankration in a year or 5 at this rate.
[/QUOTE]
I think MMA is basically Pankration. Minus the really evil stuff.
Also, although we often believe this or that developed independently. I am not so certain that is correct. We have traded since we invented trade. Or WAR. All over. People go one place see or learn and take it back and figure it out. In so doing things may be altered for their area and needs, etc. I believe influence of many if not all systems has been and always will be global. Perhaps now more so than ever with the click of a button we are seeing some obscure art in Africa or some other place we would not associate H2H with.
I have read Thai Boxing influenced Savate and I have read that is incorrect, it was the other way around. I believe both are true statements. They influenced one another. To what degree is and how would be the real questions. Time and people forget and think, I do not see any similarities. Cold not have happened. Maybe, maybe not.
This may be of interest to some. It is likely that China had Jewish settlers during the Shang Dynasty. I am unsure if Tang is another spelling for the same era ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_China
Pankration is potentially 700 years older than Kung Fu. Of course that is if we base solely off of recorder records. And believed dates of inception. I believe things are much older and old records lost and these are what we have left to base beliefs on.
Again, my main point is, I believe everyone influenced everyone in the development of the human species regardless the subject. To believe one county independently developed all that there is inside their art is just not believable to me. Again, things are shared either directly or indirectly. A guy may have taught something one guy said to him, was developed in this area and we dig deeper and find it actually is an offshoot of this art and that art was actually influenced by another system from another country and round and round it goes. Along the way, incomplete information is spread or things are dropped because for all intent purpose they serve no ideal function in the new area. Or the applications are no longer viable beyond historic value. Better ways have been shared or discovered but as the old saying goes, Nothing new under the sun. A discovery today may have been common practice in another area but was essentially lost do to time and changes of needs.
This makes me wonder all the more if Bawang was not onto something with WC is a knife art. It may not have begun that way. But, ideas may have been adopted based on a certain knife of the day. Somewhere that understand was possibly lost or forgot or just never discussed and so most know believe, it was never the case. Either could be right because as some have pointed out. WC history is somewhat murky.
Kajukenbo. A modern art developed for street situations specifically for one area of this world. An art not based around warfare/battle field methods but that is not completely correct. The ideas and techniques may in fact be traced to battlefield arts but they altered those things to make them work in there area for that time. The old applications no longer were ideal for the present circumstances. But, if we look, the basic’s and individual techniques are essentially the same. Usage as changed to a degree. Some may believe much so. Others may think, not so much. Now look at MMA.
Everything they do can be found in almost any H2H art anywhere on the map. They altered usage based on the times and place and reasons they are using it. The old applications have limited needs there and many have no place there period.
Anyway, have a good day. I have much to do.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287953]This may be of interest to some. It is likely that China had Jewish settlers during the Shang Dynasty. I am unsure if Tang is another spelling for the same era ?[/QUOTE]
Shang were a proto civilization prior to the Zhou and just after the Xia who were the first dynasty following the neolithic age in China.
They would have been extant around the time that Moses was said to be running out of Egypt (1750BCE)
The Tang Dynasty is much much later at around 700CE or only 1300 years ago compared to the Shangs 3500+ years ago.
Anyway, just providing a bit of info. 
I don’t know about Jewish people in China, but who knows, they did have a bunch of dispersed tribes. Maybe that’s the rest of us? lol
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287952]I think MMA is basically Pankration. Minus the really evil stuff.
Also, although we often believe this or that developed independently. I am not so certain that is correct. We have traded since we invented trade. Or WAR. All over. People go one place see or learn and take it back and figure it out. In so doing things may be altered for their area and needs, etc. I believe influence of many if not all systems has been and always will be global. Perhaps now more so than ever with the click of a button we are seeing some obscure art in Africa or some other place we would not associate H2H with.
I have read Thai Boxing influenced Savate and I have read that is incorrect, it was the other way around. I believe both are true statements. They influenced one another. To what degree is and how would be the real questions. Time and people forget and think, I do not see any similarities. Cold not have happened. Maybe, maybe not.[/QUOTE]
I think this is often the case.
The world (from a European perspective) got really small during the dark ages, but before that there was a great history of intercontinental exchange.
As an aside about Jews in China…some of my great (great?) granduncles were merchants from Bagdad, who apparently decided at some point to settle down in China (they used to trade there). No idea what happened after that…somewhere out there I have a curly headed Chinese cousin. Obviously this is more like late nineteenth century though.
As for the opening post…I don’t know what tongbei or tongbi originally referred to, maybe Bawang can translate some ancient texts for us, but as far as power generation for a straight punch…IMO it’s more or less the same, it’s just how the body/physics works.
Years ago, I remember hearing about a community of Jews in China’s Henan Province.
…However, contemporary Tongbei, hits in various ways that aren’t used in boxing, and those strikes have their own differences. ( Just as power generation for an uppercut is not the same as for a straight punch).
There’s a lot of whipping energy in contemporary Tongbei (back shoulders arms wrists). The wrists are something you’ll never see in boxing.
But the tongbei straight punch is just a straight punch. Or else the difference was over my head.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1287972]Years ago, I remember hearing about a community of Jews in China’s Henan Province.[/QUOTE]
Kaifeng. That’s well documented.
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1287974]Kaifeng. That’s well documented.[/QUOTE]
Very true and most scholars agree they were there around the time of Northern Song Dynasty.
Some speculate even earlier, but Northern Song started in mid 900s CE.
so, yes, silk road was a factor and so was the Babylonian expulsion, which is where the speculation about Jews arriving in China earlier comes from as that took place around 600CE.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287953]
Again, my main point is, I believe everyone influenced everyone in the development of the human species regardless the subject. [/QUOTE]
That’s a rather vague statement. What is your point of reference? Cultures have been developing in isolation for tens of thousands of years.
You vastly overestimate the speed with which information could travel in ancient times. 4000-7000 years ago seems like a long time, but that’s just a short, recent blip in reference to human culture (we’ve been farming for at least 11,000 year). Why do I use that 4-7k time frame? Because that is, according to our best evidence, the time in which humans first began using horses for transportation (and that’s for the first, it took another 2-3000 years to become a widespread practice). Rapid transportation is the minimum necessity for the rate of information transfer we are talking about. People migrated on foot and covered great distances for sure, but that took far too long (again, tens of thousands of years). Cultures and their knowledge spring up and snuff out in far less time.
The reality is, many things were developed independently, by many peoples. Something as simple as a spear head, while functionally equivalent, may be fashioned entirely differently by different cultures (in fact, that very example is one prominent way we can differentiate the migration of ancient East Asian vs. Eurasian people).
Don’t assume similarity indicates commonality. Often its simply a case of convergent evolution.
Ok, let’s just derail this thread some more.
There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations
This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1287986]That’s a rather vague statement. What is your point of reference? Cultures have been developing in isolation for tens of thousands of years.
You vastly overestimate the speed with which information could travel in ancient times. 4000-7000 years ago seems like a long time, but that’s just a short, recent blip in reference to human culture (we’ve been farming for at least 11,000 year). Why do I use that 4-7k time frame? Because that is, according to our best evidence, the time in which humans first began using horses for transportation (and that’s for the first, it took another 2-3000 years to become a widespread practice). Rapid transportation is the minimum necessity for the rate of information transfer we are talking about. People migrated on foot and covered great distances for sure, but that took far too long (again, tens of thousands of years). Cultures and their knowledge spring up and snuff out in far less time.
The reality is, many things were developed independently, by many peoples. Something as simple as a spear head, while functionally equivalent, may be fashioned entirely differently by different cultures (in fact, that very example is one prominent way we can differentiate the migration of ancient East Asian vs. Eurasian people).
Don’t assume similarity indicates commonality. Often its simply a case of convergent evolution.[/QUOTE]
Everything you write makes sense but is it correct ? I don’t know. Recently, maybe 3 month ago I was watching some documentary on tv. I think it was about Mayan or Ancient Puruvians. What they were saying was they found essentially Japanese artwork on the pottery. That was the same as what Japan was creating at the same time. Convergent Evolution ? One monkey discovered something and puff- we all know it know. Super conscious Jung stuff ? Maybe. Or maybe they covered more distance and a much faster rate than tens of thousands of years. It all really is a guess and whom you choose to believe I think,