Iron Palm

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Vankuen;861504]I used to practice Iron Palm when I was in Florida. Sold my bags to a friend before leaving because I had to leave in a hurry. Haven’t yet gotten another set.

Though the name of the training suggests otherwise, I too think of it simply as hand conditioning. A slower, safe, methodological way of preparing and conditioning the hand for striking.

Sort of the same way thai fighters now condition their shins for kicking. They kick only bags and pads over and over and over progressively kicking more dense parts of the bags as time passes…never anything hard (like another shin bone)
until they actually start having fights.

Same thing when karate stylists hit the makiwara boards, and so forth. Just a bit more progressive with IP I think.

Nothing magical about the training process unless someone believes it will make them be able to blow out the back of someone with chi energy.[/QUOTE]

If you want new IP stuff, get in touch with Dale Dugas, his stuff is top notch.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;861507]If you want new IP stuff, get in touch with Dale Dugas, his stuff is top notch.[/QUOTE]

I used to use the stuff from wing lam. Is his stuff better than theirs? I found that the mung bean bag made me wheeze too after hitting it for a while. So I might just have to go straight to steel shot!! Yeaaaaa.

We used to kick and punch bags of pebbles as part of our conditioning training (progressively, mind you) back in the day. I even did thai kicks on it. We’d use it as a joke back then for new guys. We’d hit it really hard, and then a new guy would go to hit it and bust his hand.

It was funny at the time. Thinking back with a more mature head–and I start to think about all the broken hands that COULD have occurred. Luckily it was a small bag and swung easily on it’s rope.

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Iron Palm / Heavy Hand training…

Hi ,

I am in the William Cheung lineage, and I have followed his iron palm training :
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/c/4361/1/iron-palm.html

Some people refer to it as “heavy hand” training. I understand why. Your hand doesn’t become like a piece of metal. Your skin should actually look normal and soft (not tough with calluses), but your bones under the skin will become
denser. So when you strike, its a heavier strike.

It’s not the cheapest, but I followed it because my sifu, Master Joe Sayah, had done it several times, and I was curious about it. (He has very heavy hands)

There are other Sifus I’ve met in GM Cheung’s lineage that have followed it as well. Initially most people are skeptical of training like this But once your body gets smacked by their hands, you believe.

This is the only iron palm training program I have followed, but I am sure there are other ones that are quite good as well.

Basically you strike sand bags with ONE hand for 10 minutes, dip it in warm iron palm medicine for 2 minutes, dry it off, repeat the same for the other hand. And then you repeat the same pattern again for both hands two more times.
So that’s 1 hour and 12 minutes / day , 5 days on 2 days off, and you do that for 100 days. There is a flat sandbag in front of you, a cylindrical bag to the left of the flat sand bag, a cylindrical bag across the flat sand bag, and a cylindrical bag to the right of the flat sand bag. Over the course of 100 days, you gradually increase the types of strikes that you perform.

The goal is to be relaxed, breath properly, and strike in a fluid fashion.

I know people in other styles that must perform special forms for a year before they are allowed to start striking a bag. But in ours, you start striking immediately. (I guess that is the wing chun way :wink: )

I have to admit, I don’t believe in mystical chi stuff (no offense to anyone out there, but I believe in physics and bruising liniment)

The medicine smells awful. It does leave a stink in your hands even after you shower. I had to buy orange hand creme or apple hand creme so that my wife doesn’t gag every time I come near her. LOL .

Within the first week, you will feel your hands getting heavier. Over time your fingernails will become harder too.

Will iron palm guarantee you 100% victory in a fight? Nope. That depends on your kung fu skills. But when you hit your opponent, it WILL hurt them more.

I have felt a change in the density of my hands and so have my students.
And I have done the first 100 days phase (with sand in the bags) of iron palm training. Eventually , I am supposed to repeat the 100 days of training again with bags filled with rocks, and then again with bags filled with iron pellets.

I do have a funny story…

I was walking outside in the summertime after having completed my iron palm.
A bee flew into my head next to my ear. I instinctively smacked my ear/temple area in an attempt to squish the bee (or flick it away) . I almost fell to the ground in dizziness because I smacked myself too hard.

:S

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You know that percussion training actually creates a more dense bone structure all over your body? Punching the wall bags will do the same thing for fist. I think they even mentioned something about it in the last fight science too…

It’s pretty common knowledge that athletes who consistently induce their bodies to repeated shock will naturally obtain a more dense bone structure to compensate for it. It’s the body’s way of building itself up…just like when you lift weights…it helps to increase bone density as well because of the stress being put on them.

IP is just another method, but focusing on the hand.

Again, no chi blasts.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;861526]I used to use the stuff from wing lam. Is his stuff better than theirs? I found that the mung bean bag made me wheeze too after hitting it for a while. So I might just have to go straight to steel shot!! Yeaaaaa.

We used to kick and punch bags of pebbles as part of our conditioning training (progressively, mind you) back in the day. I even did thai kicks on it. We’d use it as a joke back then for new guys. We’d hit it really hard, and then a new guy would go to hit it and bust his hand.

It was funny at the time. Thinking back with a more mature head–and I start to think about all the broken hands that COULD have occurred. Luckily it was a small bag and swung easily on it’s rope.[/QUOTE]

There are many different programs, the one I followed you are using shot from day one, of course I already had years of makiwara and bag work so,

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Makes sense. That mung bean stuff was horrible for my lungs. I’ll get with you by PM on your program.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;861535]Makes sense. That mung bean stuff was horrible for my lungs. I’ll get with you by PM on your program.[/QUOTE]

No need for PM’s I don’t keep anything “secret”, I follow the IP program of GM Chicoine, via Steve Hamp and Dale Dugas.
I have trained in a few other systems, but their’s was a perfect fit for me.

I have a few clips I am working on posting on youtube.

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Bone density will increase through use (both exercise and impact), nothing particularly surprising in that.

What does surprise me, however, is the human propensity for self-delusion.

People develop the ability to break boards, concrete, ice, etc. Too bad they won’t let those guys compete in MMA where they could unleash. :wink:

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;861613]Bone density will increase through use (both exercise and impact), nothing particularly surprising in that.

What does surprise me, however, is the human propensity for self-delusion.

People develop the ability to break boards, concrete, ice, etc. Too bad they won’t let those guys compete in MMA where they could unleash. ;)[/QUOTE]

Your typical crap aside, you do make a valid point and, to be honest, I don’t know why people don’t, maybe should ask them, I know you would never ASSume to know the reason, I am sure there are some in your location.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;861613]Bone density will increase through use (both exercise and impact), nothing particularly surprising in that.

What does surprise me, however, is the human propensity for self-delusion.

People develop the ability to break boards, concrete, ice, etc. Too bad they won’t let those guys compete in MMA where they could unleash. ;)[/QUOTE]

Yep. That’s basically it. Nothing really that special about it. The “mysticals” of the martial arts are no longer mystical really anymore. That’s why I get all upset when I see certain individuals spout off nonsense about it and can only explain using catch phrases and words with no scientific basis whatsoever.

Everything is a byproduct of something else. “If you do this than that” sort of thing. We’ll continue to learn about the human body as time passes, and will eventually be able to explain and debunk a great many more of the “mysteries” that people like to propogate in the martial arts world.

As far as MMA goes…I’m sure a few of those guys could break some cinderblocks if they wanted to…

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Iron Palm

Where do you live?

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Where do you live was intended for r4cy.

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A long time ago I did something similar. It was not Iron Palm or any such, but I personally called it Iron Hand. If you pound on hard surfaces your hands will become quite hard. I don’t know about heavy. My workout was a large cinder block with woven straw pads on it, supported up about chest high and facing me. I also had a Makawara board. I had 2 large wooden nail kegs that were filled with large sand. Kept dry, the sand was easy to work with.
With the sand kegs I would shove my hands, finger tips first, into the sand as hard as I could. In the beginning it was real hard. The fingers will seperate and go in all directions in the beginning. You hands will eventually strengthen and learn to align themselves so perfectly that you can drive them to the wrists as hard as you can and the fingers will remained perfectly alligned.
With the cinder blocks I would just chain punch with a fairly hard rythem until my arms would fail. I would grip my fist as hard as I could as well as my forarms while doing it. Eventually I could strike smooth concrete almost as hard as I could swing. Fingers too. This really does make the hands harder, and you can actually inflict some serious injury to a person. The hands not only get tough and seem impervious to pain, but the alignment of the bone structure on impact is such that it hits harder as well. The hands train themselves as you beat on things.
This does not bid very well for the hands as you get older though. It will make arthritis way more noticable.
I never stuck my hands down in any of that puke that people use either. I simply soaked them in epsom salts and then rubbed them down heavily with glycerin. Stuff makes the hands really hot and feels great. Don’t stink either.
I think sometimes that the striking power of a person might be influenced by the strength of the hands themselves. If you can punch like a mule kicking it will not matter if the fist comes apart on you or if you use your Bil it will fail on you if you strike really hard. Like hitting someone over the head with a smerf baseball bat. A little more wood in that bat will make it way more effective.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;861476]The only idiotic and irresponsible comments are from people who believe in this sort of traditional fantasy-foo.[/quote]
There is nothing fantasy about it even if it is a bit “deep” as far as your brain is concerned.

See what? You are confused again. Iron palm training was not designed for use in the ring. You should have known that even with your, at best, basic knowledge of kung fu.

You are the one who brings up the subject of legends and fantasies. Why don’t you “prove it” and find an Iron Palm master, go to his kwoon and challenge him?

If you do gather the courage to do that then please be kind enough to warn him about the unusual thickness of your skull so that the poor man doesn’t break his hand if he hits your head.

Well there are a few of your fellow “Bigfoot in the mouths” that lurk in these forums, surely you don’t mean them?

Then go and actually challenge a few of these “tricksters” for yourself, then come back and tell us how bad they were in fighting.

Even your fellow modernists don’t agree with you on this one.:rolleyes:

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HW8…

Though there are people that disagree with him on things…I think that you should try leaving out the trite remarks that lead nowhere. Perhaps that is why people react to you the way they do?

Just respond to the message, you don’t have to chop it up so that you can make cutesy insults in EVERY one of your posts.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;861795]HW8…

Though there are people that disagree with him on things…[/quote]
By “people” you mean everyone on this planet who practices authentic/traditional kung fu and even Karate!

Oh, they do lead somewhere.

By “people” you surely mean kickboxers and pseudo kung fu-ists?

If you take the time to look at your fellow kickboxer friend’s (t_niehoff’s) first message in this thread, then you will see where the insults started.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;861795]HW8…

Though there are people that disagree with him on things…I think that you should try leaving out the trite remarks that lead nowhere. Perhaps that is why people react to you the way they do?

Just respond to the message, you don’t have to chop it up so that you can make cutesy insults in EVERY one of your posts.[/QUOTE]

PS. And you can Stop attempting to derail every thread you happen to find me posting in. I have so far given you more attention than you deserve!

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Living in a oxymoron kaleidoscope paradise …

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;861337]Regardless of what people say. I’ve seen people who didn’t have much striking power break coconuts with their palms after IP training. Is it a trick? The best way to find is to buy a coconut and try it. :wink:
Check your PM.[/QUOTE]

I dont know Redmond?

Should I pull up a post were you actually praised Iron palm as taught by GM Cheung, as you showed a clip of some guys demonstrating breaks with cocoanuts and with three quarter inch patio slaps (the smallest, thinnest or beginner phase) and they were clean breaks, but their hands were well over their heads, in which showed very little time in that area

But. Never once did you identify their breaks as tricks, but only as the teachings of GM Cheung What makes their breaks so righteous and stand up as you identify others as tricks or even question the ideal as a trick?

If one trains hard and has faith in himself and his abilities just with that info: that I give on my post, you will be able to crack a cocoa nut, there is noting specially involved at all, but trusting in yourself and run from those that keep things secret…

He who speaks of secrets, speaks deeply whitin his limitations

Ali Rahim.

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Why do Thai boxers kick so friggin hard? One, they’ve kicked a million times or more. Two, they’ve desensitized their shins and fortified the bones.

So, even if you don’t get iron palm, per say, the fact that you’re striking with the base of the wrist, the knuckles, and fingertips–or whatever regimen you have–you’re striking a hard surface, incurring pain, healing, fortifying bone, and desensitizing your hands–all while you practice the correct manner of striking.

Iron palm has value even at face value.

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About William Cheung Iron palm tarining method i can say only one thing - exelent . Not only taht aftar completed training one can easy brake hard objects, but improves wing chun skill in general . I was a witnees when person improved his wing chun greatly in every aspect after completed Cheung s Iron Palm method.