The thing is every offensive action leaves you in a less favorable position…
Sun Tze (Art of war)
Or if i remember correctly my versions translation was ‘non advantaged position’ etc
Good england 
DREW
[QUOTE=Liddel;914016]The thing is every offensive action leaves you in a less favorable position…
Sun Tze (Art of war)
Or if i remember correctly my versions translation was ‘non advantaged position’ etc
Good england
DREW[/QUOTE]
And yet you will never win any wars without some kind of an attack or counter attack, as the case may be.
[QUOTE=Liddel;913998]While i personally agree with some things Terrence says, i can think of several different styles that “simultaneous block and strike” and several different examples ive seen all in the last UFC and Affliction events i watched…
Perhaps its the VT techs he just doesnt give value to. :rolleyes: Me however i know they work though actually doing them sucessfully LOL.
His sparring partners must be $ h i t Hot, all i can say is - im jelous 
DREW[/QUOTE]
Sure, lots of styles, including boxing and MT, have simultaneous blocks and strikes. There is a time and a place for them. Just for the most part they are low percentage tactics – difficult to pull off when really going at it, and IME often when you do manage to pull them off it leaves you vulnerable (as both your arms are occupied) for #2. This is why you don’t see them often in boxing or MT matches.
I often hear people SAY these things work great for them, but we never SEE it working great for them. Why is that? Why don’t we ever see some WCK fighter sparring with decent boxers or muay thai guys and consistently and successfully pulling off simultaneous blocking and striking? (But we do see their demo on youtube of how it should work!). Why? Geez, after all, just about everyone claims to be able to do it with ease and they always say it works great for them. Hmmm.
BTW, there is no need to be jealous – just do what I do, train at a MT/boxing gym.
[QUOTE=clam61;913888]with so much fighting experience you are probably a decent fighter by now. maybe better than me…who knows i have no idea.
but if you are not trying to ever do any simultaneous blocks/strikes…you are not doing wing chun. please no one give me ‘wing chun is whatever works’ or any other ‘wing chun is wing chun…its all wing chun’ bull.
its not necessarily a bad thing. lots of good fighters out there who dont use wing chun.[/QUOTE]
Lots of people have “ideas” (concepts) of what is or is not WCK or how things should work – just like you do. Where do these “ideas” come from? I’ll tell you: from people (grandmasters, masters, sifu included) that have no significant fighting experience with competant fighters. Everyone has their “ideas” (concept) of what they should be doing, just 99.9% of them never do it! Oh, but even though they never do it, and can’t do it, THEY KNOW.
My view is that if you can’t do it consistently and successfully in fighting against competant fighters, then you don’t know. And, listening to people who can’t do something tell you how it should be done is only a recipe for failure.
Don’t believe me or anyone – GO OUT AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. Go spend some time doing some very hard sparring (fighting) against some competant fighters (boxers, MT, or MMA). Let application (the fight) be your sifu.
wing chun comprehension
Sure, lots of styles, including boxing and MT, have simultaneous blocks and strikes. There is a time and a place for them. Just for the most part they are low percentage tactics – difficult to pull off when really going at it, and IME often when you do manage to pull them off it leaves you vulnerable (as both your arms are occupied) for #2. This is why you don’t see them often in boxing or MT matches.
We don’t see BJJ take downs, or elbows to face, or judo throws, either in boxing or MT. Does it make it low %? Or, is it due to the fact that you havent taken into account the environment & rules of the game when you compare differences?
Simultaneous parry & hit is a fundanmental concept in wing chun, and it’s a very effective counter; it may not work in sport not because it’s low % but simply due to the rules of the game.
In wing chun we don’t need to limit ourselves with this concept in application by using only hand & hand, we can only use hand & leg. I can’t speak for others, but I find a pak or a lap and stomp kick very effective. I find a withdrawing tan and bil to eyes very effective.
However, I personally don’t know what the % of pulling this concept of simultaneous parry & hit off in a gym because I haven’t tried it myself. It may well be extremely low because all the fighters in a MMA would wipe all wing chunner’s a55es – and that’s just for lunch. They train in such realism it is beyond the reach of all other theoritical fighters.
[QUOTE=chisauking;914080]
In wing chun we don’t need to limit ourselves with this concept in application by using only hand & hand, we can only use hand & leg. I can’t speak for others, but I find a pak or a lap and stomp kick very effective. I find a withdrawing tan and bil to eyes very effective.[/QUOTE]
Every technique is effective against fellow VT classmates. And its unlikely you will ever speak for others because i dont think you actually really know yourself ? How many fights friendly or otherwise have you had where your deliberate eye flicks have been a success ? Why not say its its also an effective technique if you stick your boot into the guys groin ! and the odd ear biting has proven an effective tactic, maybe you should consider adding it to SLT ? 
[QUOTE=chisauking;914080]
However, I personally don’t know what the % of pulling this concept of simultaneous parry & hit off in a gym because I haven’t tried it myself. It may well be extremely low because all the fighters in a MMA would wipe all wing chunner’s a55es – and that’s just for lunch. They train in such realism it is beyond the reach of all other theoritical fighters.[/QUOTE]
Well then why dont you go down to the gym to find out yourself ? But then it might prove the unthinkable , so i dont expect you will ever do that ! Your sarcasm is mis-placed and doesn’t really hold weight as you dont walk the walk.
In the right hands and if trained realistically VT is effective against the average street thug. And nothing wrong with that as many who train are not looking for much more. But you shouldn’t be mocking MMA especially as you for one will never demonstate your theoretical skills against any skilled MMA.
But if that day ever comes make sure you take a camera with you just to set the record straight ! And dont get me wrong i will be rooting for your corner
Just stick with the subject question, Stevehans.
Can you reason why – in your own words – why the wing chun concept of simultaneous parry & hit is low % when applied in the manner in which it was intended?
please define MMA beyond explaining the acronym as ‘mixed martial arts’
[QUOTE=Stevehans;914115]Every technique is effective against fellow VT classmates. And its unlikely you will ever speak for others because i dont think you actually really know yourself ? How many fights friendly or otherwise have you had where your deliberate eye flicks have been a success ? Why not say its its also an effective technique if you stick your boot into the guys groin ! and the odd ear biting has proven an effective tactic, maybe you should consider adding it to SLT ?
Well then why dont you go down to the gym to find out yourself ? But then it might prove the unthinkable , so i dont expect you will ever do that ! Your sarcasm is mis-placed and doesn’t really hold weight as you dont walk the walk.
In the right hands and if trained realistically VT is effective against the average street thug. And nothing wrong with that as many who train are not looking for much more. But you shouldn’t be mocking MMA especially as you for one will never demonstate your theoretical skills against any skilled MMA.
But if that day ever comes make sure you take a camera with you just to set the record straight ! And dont get me wrong i will be rooting for your corner :)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=chisauking;914080]
Simultaneous parry & hit is a fundanmental concept in wing chun, and it’s a very effective counter; it may not work in sport not because it’s low % but simply due to the rules of the game..[/QUOTE]
What rules prevent simultaneous blocking and punching?
I find a withdrawing tan and bil to eyes very effective..
How are you able to gouge all these people in the eyes without getting sued?
Could someone point me to a link showing what you are talking about with simultaneous hit/punch so we can be sure we are all on the same page? (considering the fact of how hard it has been to get you guys to decide on a common definition of something as foundational as the center line)
[QUOTE=clam61;914133]please define MMA beyond explaining the acronym as ‘mixed martial arts’[/QUOTE]
MMA isn’t about WHAT you train, it is about HOW you train
The training regime is to select techniques that work based upon the criteria that they can be drilled realisitically, their effectiveness demonstrated on a live resisting opponent.
If your methodology is MMA, you are going to throw out some techniques as impractical or improbable. Others you are going to find become your “bread and butter”
In reality, you are going to discover most likely what your system was really liek back a few generations back when they actually fought with it
this concept of throwing out techniques that arent as useful has been done before the term MMA was ever coined. its really nothing new. id like to add that MMA goes beyond filtering techniques to incorporating new ones where you may find them. this also is nothing new as many TMAs are a result of a combination of different MAs.
if terry is going to make a sweeping generalization that simultaneous block/attack moves dont work and leave you in a bad spot id like to ask for an example of one.
[QUOTE=clam61;914346]
if terry is going to make a sweeping generalization that simultaneous block/attack moves dont work and leave you in a bad spot id like to ask for an example of one.[/QUOTE]
Can you show an example of one working?
[QUOTE=clam61;914346]
this concept of throwing out techniques that arent as useful has been done before the term MMA was ever coined.
[/QUOTE]
see my point about reverting back a few generations
today, far too many TMA lineages are holding onto “tradition” blindly and living off the practicioners of the past
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;914339]In reality, you are going to discover most likely what your system was really liek back a few generations back when they actually fought with it[/QUOTE]
I doubt they were really all that a few generations back.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;914349]Can you show an example of one working?[/QUOTE]
i sighted the one in the video that i claim works. i know its not a real situation, but thats not what im asking for.
im not asking him for a live example of someone doing a simultaneous block/strike move in a real fight that left him in a bad position…im asking for an example of a block/strike move that does this because i cant imagine one that would be bad for you
id be happy to learn something new
[QUOTE=clam61;914353]i sighted the one in the video that i claim works. i know its not a real situation, but thats not what im asking for.
im not asking him for a live example of someone doing a simultaneous block/strike move in a real fight that left him in a bad position…im asking for an example of a block/strike move that does this because i cant imagine one that would be bad for you[/QUOTE]
No need for him to do it. Your example was a perfect example of one that wouldn’t work.
how does that put you in a bad spot?
whether the strike was successful or not, after the move, you still have one hand guarding your face.
also maybe you can tell me why it wouldnt work. im not saying its THEE ultimate move, but why is it such a horrible one?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;914352]I doubt they were really all that a few generations back.[/QUOTE]
There was nothing like BJJ back in China. So in an MMA environment many of the old fighters would have been lost on the ground, no question
Having had a glimpse of the older genration, like my teacher, I can tell you that they were practical, stuck to basics, and were pretty tough
[QUOTE=clam61;914357]how does that put you in a bad spot?
whether the strike was successful or not, after the move, you still have one hand guarding your face.
also maybe you can tell me why it wouldnt work. im not saying its THEE ultimate move, but why is it such a horrible one?[/QUOTE]
Because you generally don’t catch punches out of the air like that from someone who has half a clue about what he is doing… that is mostly fantasy fu.
Not to mention the fact that he is setting himself up for the double leg takedown.