Interesting video

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

As the video poster, I will be the first to say that I am in agreement with what most of the people are saying here: it wouldn’t work in a ring fight or a street fight.

It’s just a performance that was hastily put together as a favor for the Aikido dojo that we sublet in celebration of their grand reopening. If we wanted to make a “real” demonstration with a non-compliant opponent, most of the audience wouldn’t even understand what they were seeing and it would be ugly because all parties involved would be eating hits (and if you say you are so good that you don’t get hit in full contact, non-complaint exchanges, I’d have to see the proof that Mr. Niehoff is clamoring for).

What’s in the video clip is not how we train-- we don’t do fixed combinations, we emphasize distance (how many times do you see someone in a demo throw an attack that wouldn’t even reach?), we don’t leave arms out for people to chi sao all over. Once again, it’s just a performance-- choreographed so that people can enjoy the party without worrying about pulling out the first aid kits.

In essence, I actually agree with what Mr. Niehoff says in most of his posts on this forum (though his message does seem to get lost because of his pompous, combative tone)-- you have to go out there with a humble attitude and mix it up with people who do other martial arts and are not going to comply with what you are doing. Indeed, the other guy in the clip regularly spars full contact against practitioners of MT, Boxers, and BJJ etc. It’s the only way to honestly see what works for you.

This is just a clarification. Knowing Mr. Niehoff’s need to get the last word, I am not going to reply any further to this because I don’t have time to get into internet arguments with someone who seems to have too much time to banter online given the amount of full-contact sparring he does.

22

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;913587]Just started to watch the vid on the first post of this thread. Turned it off after about 7 seconds…

right after he stopped the guy’s rear cross with an armlock capture.

Outside of possibly a Steven Seagal movie, this move will never happen. :wink:

That’s all I needed to see.[/QUOTE]

careful there Victor, pretty soon “hardwork” will be telling you that you don’t have the “real stuff” :rolleyes:

In case some haven’t realized, “hardwork” is just a troll who tries to stirr crap. Fortuantely, he’s been exposed on the main forum and will soon be gone

23

In case some haven’t realized, “hardwork” is just a troll who tries to stirr crap. Fortuantely, he’s been exposed on the main forum and will soon be gone

With coments like this…

How do you know that he has not used his knowledge in real fights? Did you know that there are quite a few Hong Kong sifus that were gangsters?

Id hope so…

He should go back to reading comic books :cool:

DREW

24

I think that there are valid points throughout this topic. Ive only recently started some light sparring after 3 years of wing chun and a year or so of filipino martial arts and I can say that a larger percentage of things I have learned cant be applied to a fight situation, right now.

Perhaps in future I’ll be able to work some of them into sparring and see how it goes but until then I will learn as I go along without presuming something will work just because it works in theory.

25

[QUOTE=aelward;913622]As the video poster, I will be the first to say that I am in agreement with what most of the people are saying here: it wouldn’t work in a ring fight or a street fight.

It’s just a performance that was hastily put together as a favor for the Aikido dojo that we sublet in celebration of their grand reopening. If we wanted to make a “real” demonstration with a non-compliant opponent, most of the audience wouldn’t even understand what they were seeing and it would be ugly because all parties involved would be eating hits (and if you say you are so good that you don’t get hit in full contact, non-complaint exchanges, I’d have to see the proof that Mr. Niehoff is clamoring for).
[/QUOTE]

So what you are saying is that you intentionally presented “applications” of WCK that you knew couldn’t possibly work (i.e., nonsense) – and didn’t make this clear in your video or in your description – because the people you created the video for (which would seem to be anyone that had access to youtube) wouldn’t “understand” genuine application. Oh,yeah, that makes great sense.

What’s in the video clip is not how we train-- we don’t do fixed combinations, we emphasize distance (how many times do you see someone in a demo throw an attack that wouldn’t even reach?), we don’t leave arms out for people to chi sao all over. Once again, it’s just a performance-- choreographed so that people can enjoy the party without worrying about pulling out the first aid kits.

Then why label your video clip “Wing Chun Demo, part 2: Applications” when you say they are not applications? Why describe your video as “Part 2 of a local demo. We demonstrated some possible Wing Chun responses to various types of attacks. These were all choreographed” when you now say these things would not work? Don’t you think you were/are being dishonest or at the very least misleading?

In essence, I actually agree with what Mr. Niehoff says in most of his posts on this forum (though his message does seem to get lost because of his pompous, combative tone)-- you have to go out there with a humble attitude and mix it up with people who do other martial arts and are not going to comply with what you are doing. Indeed, the other guy in the clip regularly spars full contact against practitioners of MT, Boxers, and BJJ etc. It’s the only way to honestly see what works for you.

This is just a clarification. Knowing Mr. Niehoff’s need to get the last word, I am not going to reply any further to this because I don’t have time to get into internet arguments with someone who seems to have too much time to banter online given the amount of full-contact sparring he does.

OK, so you are saying that this isn’t the stuff you do, it’s not how you train, you know these things couldn’t possibly work, you’reon the same page as me, etc. yet you thought this stuff would somehow make a good demo of WCK applications. I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense to me. If that’s true and you want to demo how to deal with a takedown, for example, why not really show what you do instead of making some nonsense up?

26

“The difference between theory and practice is a lot less in theory than it is in practice”.

“The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.”

Important sayings from the sages.

Train hard, have fun. Thats what its all abount.

27

[QUOTE=Liddel;913646]

He should go back to reading comic books :cool:

DREW[/QUOTE]

You suprise me (and that is nothing new in this forum) as the fact that WC has been used by gangsters is a well known fact among some Hong Kong sifus.

28

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913505]
I do have a basis for my negative claim: my experience fighting and everything that I can see working in anyone else’s fights. We never see that crap working in fighting for the simple reason it doesn’t work (at least not like that).
[/QUOTE]

that reasoning is full of holes. just because you havent seen it done doesnt mean that it cant work.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913505]It’s pretty obvious it won’t work – neither will your simultaneous block/strike. Those are extremely low percentage moves.[/QUOTE]

you must not study wing chun…or if you do that is even scarier because that is one of the fundamental basics of WC.
there is no reason that blocking, then striking would result in a higher percentage of success (where success means making contact with your strike) than blocking and striking simultaneously. blocking and then striking would give your opponent more time to react vs a simutaneous block/strike

[quote=Ultimatewingchun;11290]
Just started to watch the vid on the first post of this thread. Turned it off after about 7 seconds…

right after he stopped the guy’s rear cross with an armlock capture.

Outside of possibly a Steven Seagal movie, this move will never happen.

That’s all I needed to see. [/quote]

im just talking about the flapping wing palm at 0:38. i didnt watch the rest of the vid.

Or it is something that you, yourself can’t make work in fighting. Terrence, it is all in the training. You don’t train that way so you are not able to relate to it.

this is very important. you have not been able to make it work. it doesnt mean that it cant work. again im talking about the flapping wing palm.

29

ill bite

Did you know that there are quite a few Hong Kong sifus that were gangsters?

Name one :rolleyes:

You suprise me as the fact that WC has been used by gangsters is a well known fact among some Hong Kong sifus.

Its no fact friend…its ‘the word on the street’ :slight_smile:

Regardless you could say that about any style IMO - gangsters - thugs - street punks many try to emulate/learn styles, so what ?

Are they representitive of the best of any style ? Take kimbo for instance, was he actually at a pro level in boxing in the backyard fights on the net ? has he gone anywhere in MMA ?

My sifu taught in HK for decades and my opinion is in line with his - Gangsters dont tend to fight fairly - one on one H2H - its fairytale stuff that if really true has no relevance to anyone elses effectivness with VT anyway.

I just think when disussing the effectivness of VT especially with someone like Terrence (a grounded reality based person, or so it seems LOL) using an unsubstantiated rumour was not the strongest evidence for VT’s effectivness IMO.

Wouldnt it be wise to talk from your own personal experience in sparring fighting rather than gangsters, not one person can argue with what youve experinecd and know to be true :rolleyes:

DREW

30

[QUOTE=clam61;913833]that reasoning is full of holes. just because you havent seen it done doesnt mean that it cant work.

you must not study wing chun…or if you do that is even scarier because that is one of the fundamental basics of WC.
there is no reason that blocking, then striking would result in a higher percentage of success (where success means making contact with your strike) than blocking and striking simultaneously. blocking and then striking would give your opponent more time to react vs a simutaneous block/strike

im just talking about the flapping wing palm at 0:38. i didnt watch the rest of the vid.

this is very important. you have not been able to make it work. it doesnt mean that it cant work. again im talking about the flapping wing palm.[/QUOTE]

Hello clam61,

Good post but you attributed one of Ultimatewingchun’s quotes to me.:eek:

31

[QUOTE=Liddel;913834]Name one :rolleyes:[/quote]
I know of TWO!

But it is not for me to talk about them in a public forum. I don’t know wether this fact will be seen by them negatively as far as their public image is concerned.

It is a fact!

As far as Hong Kong is concerned some gangsters go beyond “emulating”.

They are representative of functionality of the style.

That is nothing new. However, gangsters are “hands on” people when it comes to fighting.

When I lived in Rio de Janeiro one would here about Ju Jitsu gangs causing trouble in nightclubs. Do you think they fought one to one?

It is unsubstantiated for you and Terrence but for me it is more than substantiated.

Well your friend Terrence seems to lack any real fight experience with Wing Chun experts, yet goes on to put down Wing Chun and every other TCMA and TJMA under the sun as “fantasy” martial arts. Tell him that!

My personal experience is in Wing Chun contact sparring to improve my street effectiveness not my sport competition effectiveness!

32

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;913624]

In case some haven’t realized, “hardwork” is just a troll who tries to stirr crap. Fortuantely, he’s been exposed on the main forum and will soon be gone[/QUOTE]

Yes, keep selling the lies.:rolleyes:

33

[QUOTE=clam61;913833]that reasoning is full of holes. just because you havent seen it done doesnt mean that it cant work.
[/QUOTE]

You miss the point. People can and do BELIEVE in all sorts of fantasies in the martial arts. They can BELIEVE in fairy tales and stories. I want evidence. Evidence I can see. I form my conclusions not on stories or fairy tales or hearsay but on hard evidence.

And one part of that hard evidence is seeing what sort ofthings really do work in fights.

you must not study wing chun…or if you do that is even scarier because that is one of the fundamental basics of WC.
there is no reason that blocking, then striking would result in a higher percentage of success (where success means making contact with your strike) than blocking and striking simultaneously. blocking and then striking would give your opponent more time to react vs a simutaneous block/strike

Here’s the thing, I could explain to you intellectually why simultaneous blocking and striking is low percentage (and btw, the kuit lien siu die da does NOT translate into simultaneous block and strike) but you would not understand it since you don’t have the requisite experience. The only way you or anyone can understand is by hard sparring/fighting against good people and trying to make that work – THEN you’ll see. Until then, it is just some intellectual theory to you. Go try to make it work at a good boxing gym, at a muay thai gym, at a MMA gym. You’ll see what I am telling you is true. But the only way to see that is by doing it.

this is very important. you have not been able to make it work. it doesnt mean that it cant work. again im talking about the flapping wing palm.

It’s not just me. Simultaneous blocking and striking is low percentage for everyone. And even when you can pull it off, it doesn’t typically leave you in a good spot. But the only way you can see this is through EXPERIENCE – through a great deal of HARD (trying to knock each other out type hard) sparring with skilled opponents. Understanding fighting and what works in fighting cannot be grasped through intellectual discussion or through unrealistic exercises (chi sao or light sparring).

34

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913883]You miss the point. People can and do BELIEVE in all sorts of fantasies in the martial arts. They can BELIEVE in fairy tales and stories. I want evidence. Evidence I can see. I form my conclusions not on stories or fairy tales or hearsay but on hard evidence. [/quote]

i understand that. i am also a very factual and objective person. one of the reasons i am a very skeptical person. but i also know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, which is what your reasoning is.

just because i didnt produce a video for you does not mean that by default the technique i am talking about doesnt work…especially when work is so loosely defined.

Here’s the thing, I could explain to you intellectually why simultaneous blocking and striking is low percentage (and btw, the kuit lien siu die da does NOT translate into simultaneous block and strike) but you would not understand it since you don’t have the requisite experience… The only way you or anyone can understand is by hard sparring/fighting against good people and trying to make that work – THEN you’ll see. Until then, it is just some intellectual theory to you. Go try to make it work at a good boxing gym, at a muay thai gym, at a MMA gym.

again i dont know how you get your assumptions about my experience. and btw, i am not translating that saying.

and also i have sparred and i have seen it work. the only thing your experience tells you is that you have not made it work. my experience tells me i have made it work.

you seem like a reasonable person. can you see the that we are in a stalemate here with regards to experience as evidence? im sure you can understand the fallacies in what you are saying.

It’s not just me. Simultaneous blocking and striking is low percentage for everyone. And even when you can pull it off, it doesn’t typically leave you in a good spot.

please define low percentage. also, you are generalizing ‘simultaneous blocking and striking’ leaving you in a bad spot.

through unrealistic exercises (chi sao or light sparring).

no offense but it really seems like you must have had an inadequate teacher. for you to think that chi sao is ‘unrealistic’. of course no one is going to let you tie them up so easily. you wont start a fight in a chi sao position, but in many standup fights you get close. and chi sao skills have great application.

again you will say you haven’t used it and cant use it. i submit that your failed attempts do not define a technique as unrealistic

35

with so much fighting experience you are probably a decent fighter by now. maybe better than me…who knows i have no idea.

but if you are not trying to ever do any simultaneous blocks/strikes…you are not doing wing chun. please no one give me ‘wing chun is whatever works’ or any other ‘wing chun is wing chun…its all wing chun’ bull.

its not necessarily a bad thing. lots of good fighters out there who dont use wing chun.

36

[QUOTE=clam61;913888]with so much fighting experience you are probably a decent fighter by now. maybe better than me…who knows i have no idea.
[/QUOTE]No need to question this one. T and KF are the best fighters in these parts. I have no doubt they could kick all of our @sses without breaking a sweat.

Cheers,
Bill

37

Yeah, I understand that Terence just got his blackbelt in Keyboard Warrior. :slight_smile:

38

While i personally agree with some things Terrence says, i can think of several different styles that “simultaneous block and strike” and several different examples ive seen all in the last UFC and Affliction events i watched…

Perhaps its the VT techs he just doesnt give value to. :rolleyes: Me however i know they work though actually doing them sucessfully LOL.

His sparring partners must be $ h i t Hot, all i can say is - im jelous :slight_smile:

DREW

39

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;913975]Yeah, I understand that Terence just got his blackbelt in Keyboard Warrior. :)[/QUOTE]

It was easy for Terrence to get his black belt. I mean all he had to do for his final test was to beat some invisible “fantasy” TCMA-ists.:smiley:

40

About simultaneous blocking and hitting.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913883]
And even when you can pull it off, it doesn’t typically leave you in a good spot.[/quote]

Let me get this right. You punch I block and hit you in the nose simultaneously and I am the one who ends up in a bad spot?