I don’t know if anyone has seen this clip but it has a lot of Wing Chun essence. It was posted in 2006 so there is a good chance that it has been posted before, if so then sorry in advance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt2ZKux3y8&feature=PlayList&p=9965D4C8A9925666&index=9
These are NOt applications of WCK. The whole idea of “application” is wrong-headed. If you are really applying (using) WCK, then you are fighting/sparring. You can only see application in fighting. Outside of fighting, you are only seeing demonstrations – someone acting out what they believe will work in fighting. People acting out using their WCK movements is fantasy fu. It has absolutely no legitimacy or truth..
If someone wants to explain how they do something or how something works for them, they first need to show it really working in fighitng, otherwise it is merely a fantasy demo. For example, want to show how YOU deal with hooks? Then show yourself really dealing with hooks in fighting/sparring, and only afterward explain it, break it down, etc.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913296]These are NOt applications of WCK. The whole idea of “application” is wrong-headed. If you are really applying (using) WCK, then you are fighting/sparring. You can only see application in fighting. Outside of fighting, you are only seeing demonstrations – someone acting out what they believe will work in fighting. People acting out using their WCK movements is fantasy fu. It has absolutely no legitimacy or truth..
If someone wants to explain how they do something or how something works for them, they first need to show it really working in fighitng, otherwise it is merely a fantasy demo. For example, want to show how YOU deal with hooks? Then show yourself really dealing with hooks in fighting/sparring, and only afterward explain it, break it down, etc.[/QUOTE]
t, I would like to take this one step further. If you are going to show how wing chun works against a boxer or wrestler please show it against a boxer or wrestler not some wing chunner pretending to be a boxer or wrestler using a poor imitation of what they think a boxer or wrestler would do.
Ok, rant over. 
[QUOTE=m1k3;913299]t, I would like to take this one step further. If you are going to show how wing chun works against a boxer or wrestler please show it against a boxer or wrestler not some wing chunner pretending to be a boxer or wrestler using a poor imitation of what they think a boxer or wrestler would do.
Ok, rant over. :D[/QUOTE]
That’s a very good point. Lots of JUNK works not because it is fundamentally solid or that the person doing it is particularly skilled, but because of who it is being done against. And these fantasy demos are really a sort of strawman argument. The bottom line is that the only way to tell whether something works for you is by really doing it, and doing it against good people.
Yes I have found the flawed demos of wingchun versus other styles "
acted" by other wingchun guys, not to be representative of the art.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913303]That’s a very good point. Lots of JUNK works not because it is fundamentally solid or that the person doing it is particularly skilled, but because of who it is being done against. And these fantasy demos are really a sort of strawman argument. The bottom line is that the only way to tell whether something works for you is by really doing it, and doing it against good people.[/QUOTE]
Yes I have found the flawed demos of wingchun versus other styles "
acted" by other wingchun guys, not to be representative of the art.
And, btw, you have said exactly what I mean, in the other qi thread,
The bottom line is that the only way to tell whether something works for you is by really doing it, and doing it against good people.
All Qi, Jing demos, have to subject itself to the litmus tests and pressure testing. Some pass, some dont. But while I advocate testing, the purpose of these practices were for spiritual refinement, people like me, abuse it by adding a layer of ego to want to prove it. Still work in progress- My Bad.
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;913334]Yes I have found the flawed demos of wingchun versus other styles "
acted" by other wingchun guys, not to be representative of the art.
And, btw, you have said exactly what I mean, in the other qi thread,
The bottom line is that the only way to tell whether something works for you is by really doing it, and doing it against good people.
All Qi, Jing demos, have to subject itself to the litmus tests and pressure testing. Some pass, some dont. But while I advocate testing, the purpose of these practices were for spiritual refinement, people like me, abuse it by adding a layer of ego to want to prove it. Still work in progress- My Bad.[/QUOTE]
There are no qi tests since qi doesn’t exist. If someone does something it can be explained without reference to nonexistent forces.
Like I said, punch the guy, if chi blast works, you lose, if it doesnt you win.
Nonsense talk like whether a real punch worked or not is even more estoric then Qi.
Simple test, logical, easy. But then again, it cant be simple right? Because we are superior human beings over thousands of years of research, and we know better.
Sorry HW108, didnt mean to hijack your thread. Please continue…
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;913368]Like I said, punch the guy, if chi blast works, you lose, if it doesnt you win.
Simple test, logical, easy. But then again, it cant be simple right? Because we are superior human beings over thousands of years of research, and we know better.[/QUOTE]
ROFLOL! Another qi blast alert! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmYIOjOjEEA
Reread what I wrote: If someone does something it can be explained without reference to nonexistent forces. And this time try to THINK about it.
Your hitting someone – regardless of the result-- doesn’t prove the existence if qi.
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;913368]
Sorry HW108, didnt mean to hijack your thread. Please continue…[/QUOTE]
Don’t worry Shadow_warrior as it wasn’t you who hijacked, it was t_niehoff, but then nothing new there.
Watch it or I will qi blast you from afar!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913296]These are NOt applications of WCK. The whole idea of “application” is wrong-headed. If you are really applying (using) WCK, then you are fighting/sparring.[/quote]
But then before you use them you have to train and understand them with a partner, hence the video!
Someone “acting out” techniques that have worked in fighting in the past through the practice of “crystalized” exercises. Now that is a better explanation.
…and that would be because you Mr Niehoff never perfected your WC skills to be able to apply them in real combat and as a result you believe them to BS?
And before they can show it working, they need to pracitice it with a training partner.
I really believe that you have missed the point of the video and the thread.
Again, you have missed the point of this thread, which is about the application of the art of Wing Chun.
If somehow you are implying that typical WC techniques that adhere to this art’s principles don’t work in combat and that they need to be somehow “modernized” then I would suggest that you discuss this in the MMA threads.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;913430]But then before you use them you have to train and understand them with a partner, hence the video!
[/QUOTE]
When you train with genuine, fuctional martial artists and they teach you applications, they are teaching you things they DO in fighting and that reliably and consistently work for them in fighting. That is what is missing in the video you posted. This is not things this guy does in fighitng or anyone does in fighting – this is what he fantasizes will work in fighting.
Someone “acting out” techniques that have worked in fighting in the past through the practice of “crystalized” exercises. Now that is a better explanation.
If these techniques have worked, then showing them working shouldn’t be a problem, right?
Here is a very simple way to tell the nonsense: CAN WE SEE IT FOR OURSELVES BEING DONE IN FIGHTING. My view is that unless and until we see that, don’t believe it.
…and that would be because you Mr Niehoff never perfected your WC skills to be able to apply them in real combat and as a result you believe them to BS?
Certain phrases are dead give-aways for nonfighters, things like “perfected your WC skills” (skills are never perfected) and “real combat” (LOL!). FWIW, I DO (fight with) WCK two or three times a week. And I can make what I do work very well. And I train with very good nonWCK fight trainers and fighters. Which is why I can look at that nonsense and tell you it won’t work. But, of course, to proveme wrong all he needs to do is show it working in fighitng against good people, right?
And before they can show it working, they need to pracitice it with a training partner.
I really believe that you have missed the point of the video and the thread.
NO, I didn’t miss the point. He’s doing what they all do – showing what he believes (in theory) will work. My point is that he, like all the rest (with a very, very, very few notable exceptions) NEVER SHOW IT ACTUALLY WORKING IN FIGHTING AGAINST ANYONE GOOD. If he is going to take the time to post videos of himself, then at the very least make those videos not more of the same old crap.
Again, you have missed the point of this thread, which is about the application of the art of Wing Chun.
You can’t see application except through fighting – what you see on the video isn’t application, it is some guy acting out what he WRONGLY believes will work.
If somehow you are implying that typical WC techniques that adhere to this art’s principles don’t work in combat and that they need to be somehow “modernized” then I would suggest that you discuss this in the MMA threads.
I’m not suggesting anything; I am stating it explicitly: showing in a demo (acting it out) what you believe you can do or how you believe things should be done (concepts/principles) WITHOUT ACTUALLY SHOWING IT WORKING IN FIGHTING is the standard approach of the theoretical nonfighter. Every boob on youtube does that.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913432]…This is not things this guy does in fighitng or anyone does in fighting – this is what he fantasizes will work in fighting. [/QUOTE]
its good to not blindly follow someones teachings, but now you are making claims without basis.
how can you say that what he is doing will not work in a real fight and no one does that in a real fight.
the move at 0:38 looks like a “flapping wing palm”, one of the 12 san sik in sum neng wing chin.
it is extremely effective and is one of our knockout moves.
i use it in sparring as well as my kung fu brothers. it is a perfect move to do on someone coming at you with a hook punch, chung choi, or some other straight punch.
[QUOTE=clam61;913460]i
the move at 0:38 looks like a “flapping wing palm”, one of the 12 san sik in sum neng wing chin.
it is extremely effective and is one of our knockout moves.
i use it in sparring as well as my kung fu brothers. it is a perfect move to do on someone coming at you with a hook punch, chung choi, or some other straight punch.[/QUOTE]
So, post a clip of it working in sparring.
Why can’t anybody ever post a clip of the things they “always” use in sparring? Do the ubiquitous video recorders that always seem to be around for compliant partner demos suddenly quit working when sparring starts?
well i havent posted any demo videos so you cant use that reasoning with me.
im not going to bother showing you. even if i did you would probably say it was staged or the guy i was fighting sucks and that it wouldnt work against a skilled person or something.
its pretty obvious that it would work. its a simple simultaneous block/strike. nothign special.
[QUOTE=clam61;913460]its good to not blindly follow someones teachings, but now you are making claims without basis.
[/QUOTE]
I do have a basis for my negative claim: my experience fighting and everything that I can see working in anyone else’s fights. We never see that crap working in fighting for the simple reason it doesn’t work (at least not like that).
And like I said on the chi thread – the more we learn and know about how things really do work (the stuff we can see over and over again working), the more we know about what things don’t work.
how can you say that what he is doing will not work in a real fight and no one does that in a real fight.
Because I know from fighting with good people the sort of things that might work – and that crap won’t.
the move at 0:38 looks like a “flapping wing palm”, one of the 12 san sik in sum neng wing chin.
it is extremely effective and is one of our knockout moves.
i use it in sparring as well as my kung fu brothers. it is a perfect move to do on someone coming at you with a hook punch, chung choi, or some other straight punch.
Find a MMA gym or muay thai gym, and try your “knock out move” when sparring them. Take your video camera along. When I see it for myself, I’ll believe it.
[QUOTE=clam61;913470]well i havent posted any demo videos so you cant use that reasoning with me.
im not going to bother showing you. even if i did you would probably say it was staged or the guy i was fighting sucks and that it wouldnt work against a skilled person or something.
its pretty obvious that it would work. its a simple simultaneous block/strike. nothign special.[/QUOTE]
It’s pretty obvious it won’t work – neither will your simultaneous block/strike. Those are extremely low percentage moves.
Just started to watch the vid on the first post of this thread. Turned it off after about 7 seconds…
right after he stopped the guy’s rear cross with an armlock capture.
Outside of possibly a Steven Seagal movie, this move will never happen. 
That’s all I needed to see.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;913432]When you train with genuine, fuctional martial artists and they teach you applications, they are teaching you things they DO in fighting and that reliably and consistently work for them in fighting. That is what is missing in the video you posted. This is not things this guy does in fighitng or anyone does in fighting – this is what he fantasizes will work in fighting. [/quote]
Or it is something that you, yourself can’t make work in fighting. Terrence, it is all in the training. You don’t train that way so you are not able to relate to it.
There are thousands of TKD guys training complicated high kicks the use of which would get them killed in most real fights. Many people would criticise them and say that those high kicks are fantasie kicks as in real life you won’t have a chance to use them, yet there are a few who make them work, both in full contact tournaments and in the street. Why? Because they spend more time and train that stuff profoundly, something that you obviously have not done as regards Wing Chun.
The man is demonstrating WC techniques in two man training exercises and you want everyone who posts such techniques to include a real full contact fight using the techniques beforehand?LOL!
There are a lot of things that we have not seen, but some of us have intuitions that say that certain things make sense and some of us don’t.
The give away here is that you did not understand my reference to “perfecting” your WC skills/techniques.
Is that real Wing Chun or McWing Chun (remember that most WC schools are Mc kwoons)?
And is “fight” a reference to sparring or real street fighting?
Have you ever had a fight with a real kung fu sifu/expert? Or are all your “fights” friendly sparring matches with “wing chuner” friends?
But in what context? The sports context or the real fight context?
How many good (I mean experts) genuine Wing Chun people have fought and defeated in real fights?
My message here is sports fighting/competitions do not reflect the real fighting scenario. Helio Gracie would agree with me here.
How do you know that he has not used his knowledge in real fights? Did you know that there are quite a few Hong Kong sifus that were gangsters?
Have you ever fought and won against a “GOOD” kung fu sifu, perhaps in your local china town and in a REAL fight?
You are making rude comments about someone of who you know very little and about an art that you have not mastered. Lets just hope that he never comes knocking at your door.
Wrongly in you opinion, that is.
Because people like you never ever train kung fu deeply in an authentic school you end up misunderstanding the training methodology.
A lot of schools will teach you the two man self defense stuff and eventually when you get to contact sparring level you begin to apply what you have been taught. As usual certain people may be better at pulling off certain applications whereas others may find their fort in others.
What a lot of people (you?) advocate is for the students to start their fighting/sparring from day one. As far as I am concerned the traditional kung fu methodology that I have been exposed to is the correct way.