I really like the article on integrative wing chun. i agree with the modification to the fook sau and wu sau and also with the way the hand is retracted. i liked the ideas. it inspires me to think about those things and see if i feel the need to make the same or similar adjustments. I thought it was one of the better articles to come out on wing chun recently. what does everyone else think?
Re: Integrative Wing Chun
Originally posted by wingchunalex
I really like the article on integrative wing chun. i agree with the modification to the fook sau and wu sau and also with the way the hand is retracted. i liked the ideas. it inspires me to think about those things and see if i feel the need to make the same or similar adjustments. I thought it was one of the better articles to come out on wing chun recently. what does everyone else think?
My general view is “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
Despite my emphasis on respect and tolerance, I tend to be a traditionalist, sometimes a staunch one. I will continue to practice my set in the manner taught to me, and as practiced by my teacher and his teacher before him. If it was good enough for Leung Sheung, it is good enough for me. I like to think of it as selective and considered subjectivity, LOL.
Still, considering things in a new or unconventional way, or to compare and contrast is a good thing. It can lead to insights, regardless of acceptance, agreement, or adoption. So it seems the article was fruitful in that regard for some, including you. 
From a technical and analytical perspective, I am much in agreement with what has been written in the other thread by the likes of Rene, Yuanfen, S. Teebas, Burnsypoo, Teazer and others in the other thread by same name.
In particular, I have no dilemma with a receiving wu sau which still possesses the element of forward intent; this has not proven to be a problem in my practice, nor is it particularly challenging to enlighten newbies. Many things are far more challenging to explain and grasp in practice, IMHO.
I also agree with Rene’s assertions on the balance of the sets as-is. Even if I were willing to concede on the forward moving wu sau, I do not agree with the energy and elbow emphasis in the retracting fook sau for this section. We have enough work to keep newbies from collapsing or getting lazy with a fook sau elbow in practice as it is (e.g., dan chi sau). This very important first, slow part of the set is the last thing I would tinker with.
To play with this stuff “off sides” I wouldn’t complain. To change the set? Nah.
Not much, but something for starters on your thread, anyway. Plus I guess I owe something of a real “opinion” for those who may mistake me for a Unitarian, LOL.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Well said…
I agree with you Kathy Jo.
I feel like I’m being a little dogmatic by rejecting the message in this article. I believe that I am open-minded enough to fairly weigh the merits of an alternative point of view, but in this case, I can see no merit. What I see is an attempt to innovate for innovations sake only.
Matrix
When so-called masters alter the arts by reason of refinement, I think it just shows how inadequate their level of skills are. Unless you’ve totally mastered the art and your skill can be considered to be higher than the original innovators like Leung Jan, Yip Man and others, then you’d be able to make such claims of refinement publicly. The refinements that this guy made about the fut-sau, fook-sau, etc., are senseless because I don’t feel there are such drawbacks. There are reasons why techniques are invented and you must understand all the fine points behind each technique to appreciate it. If you don’t understand, you won’t appreciate, and in the end you would discard it.
Sorry, personally I would place my faith in the true masters like Leung Jan than what’s-his-name-chow. Spend time searching for the answer rather than finding an excuse and fabricating a wrong answer.
Bruce Lee added and made changes to his Wing Chun, and he was wise enough to call it something else.
SLC
"Unless you’ve totally mastered the art and your skill can be considered to be higher than the original innovators like Leung Jan, Yip Man and others, then you’d be able to make such claims of refinement publicly. "
Not to against you,
This sentence got problem, IMHO
1, Principle is the ultimate, Title and fame isn’t
2, Without understand the Principle, there is no way one can master the art. Thus the art is ultimately Doom
3, the measurement has to have a reference, but that reference cannot be human. How can one compare one human with others?
Hendrik,
With the present way in which Wing Chun is progressing, some would say the art has doomed already. However, miracles do happen, so let just wait…
SLC
Originally posted by Hendrik
[B]"Unless you’ve totally mastered the art and your skill can be considered to be higher than the original innovators like Leung Jan, Yip Man and others, then you’d be able to make such claims of refinement publicly. "
Not to against you,
This sentence got problem, IMHO
1, Principle is the ultimate, Title and fame isn’t
2, Without understand the Principle, there is no way one can master the art. Thus the art is ultimately Doom
3, the measurement has to have a reference, but that reference cannot be human. How can one compare one human with others? [/B]
The underlying assumption appears to be that Title and Fame correlates to understanding of Principles. The idealist in me agrees that these “ought” to correlate, and I “wish” we could safely make such assumptions.
But as Hendrik seems to suggest, the realist in me agrees they often do not. My inner optimist still likes to think there may be a case every now and again where a) recognition by others and b) consistency to principles are congruent.
The dilemma in keeping with absolute principles of course, is that and in this case especially, humans are very much involved, even central to the issue. Wing Chun is, IMHO and paradoxically very abstract and completely objective in its nature, yet actualizes only by virtue of tangible elements and highly subjective and individualized human nature.
IMHO, it is that necessary dependency between principle and person which puts Wing Chun at risk of doom or survival.
Which begs another question … if the abstract and absolute notions of Wing Chun are lost to humans now, will it ever be found again? Reminds me of the old cliche about an infinite number of monkeys in an infinite number of years typing out Shakespeare. Maybe better to try being good stewards now. 
[SIZE=1]If you’ll forgive my saying so, knowing that I have just been so bold as to exchange comment with a Chan master somehow and suddenly leaves me feeling quite vulnerable and more than a little foolish, LOL.[/SIZE]
To those who hate reading this stuff (there are surely some), apologies for the ramble and wasting your time. Do yourself a favor and skip it next time.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
P.S. True confessions … one of my greater Wing Chun curiosities at present is “What does Hendrik’s Wing Chun feel like?”
My simple belief is: In the beginning,you learn the form(s) then after some times related to you only,you start to learn from the form(s). The principles are hidden there,not in reasoning about them.
This means that Wing Chun could be lost for some times but could as well reappear (It’s principles) because anytimes somebody could rediscover it!..
answers to Kj in brackets:
IMHO, it is that necessary dependency between principle and person which puts Wing Chun at risk of doom or survival.
((Well put. While the principle is paramount- its not alway self evodent))
Which begs another question … if the abstract and absolute notions of Wing Chun are lost to humans now, will it ever be found again? Reminds me of the old cliche about an infinite number of monkeys in an infinite number of years typing out Shakespeare. Maybe better to try being good stewards now.
(( Lots of traditional skills have indeed been lost. Sometimes chance is involved. If the communist revolution had not taken place. I doubt very much that we would know much about Yip Man’s take on wing chun. Regarding the monkeys- you can train good chimps to act out bits of Midsummer Night’s Dream))
To those who hate reading this stuff (there are surely some), apologies for the ramble and wasting your time. Do yourself a favor and skip it next time.
((Not wasting my time bya long shot))
P.S. True confessions … one of my greater Wing Chun curiosities at present is “What does Hendrik’s Wing Chun feel like?”
((Different for me-- I am more interested in the info on The Emei
posts their dynamics and their transformation into martial skills.))
Im sorry but that is silly- He says retracting wu sao gets jamed-poor energy. That is nonsence. You train with forward intention. You imagine pushing forward. So your wu sao is very powerfull. Like when sifu walks around class to check everybodys forward intention by hitting the wu. He shouldnt be able to move it. And the fook is never withdrawn. Out of our fook we can sink the wrist forward(yang) or sink the wrist and bring it back twords the body (yin) as two differant ways of doing that motion in dan chi sao- as in Ip man WC. I think that is called chum sao. Ive heard the withdrawn one called jut but everybody uses differant language
Originally posted by kj
[B]
- Kathy Jo
P.S. True confessions … one of my greater Wing Chun curiosities at present is “What does Hendrik’s Wing Chun feel like?” [/B]
Hi Kathy,
As in the Buddhism, it said, before one understand, one needs teacher, after one understand, one follow the Dharma not the teacher. So, have no intend to go extreme.
As for What Does Hendrik’s Wing Chun Feel like?
Well, I dont have Wing Chun.
It is similar to learning and playing the 5th symphony of Beethoven. But then I am learning, Practicing,…
That is Beethoven’s not mine.
According to Yik Kam’s teaching and the Emei 12 zhuang,
The touch for sensing and tracking will feel like the silk floating in the air. Gentlely subdue the enermy within a split of an inch.
or sometimes, it bounces similar to a ball…
Thus, not single fly will landed…
The sustain and neutrazation will like a wall so the other feel like pushing or pressing a wall. if one can diffuse the incomeing force to different direction…
The issue of force will feel like the slap of wave to the boat…
Those are still thier stuffs which I am trying to learn.
But then Yik Kam is suppost to similar to those actors who were playing cocubine in the movie " farewell cocubine"…
so no muscle no Shao Lin hard jump but alots of " romance" while feeling and tracking… That is difficult.
Just a practitioner or hobist have no WCK of myself.
Re: answers to Kj in brackets:
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]
P.S. True confessions … one of my greater Wing Chun curiosities at present is “What does Hendrik’s Wing Chun feel like?”
((Different for me-- I am more interested in the info on The Emei
posts their dynamics and their transformation into martial skills.)) [/B]
Hi Joy,
As I just post for KJ, I have not a thing. Just a student.
By the way, one even can use the chakra system to check one’s SLT. Say if the the root Chakra is natually vibrate, open and close with breathing.
The heart Chakra is natually open and closing…
If one tuck one’s pelvis dead or keep the elbow stuck…
will that be nature even with YoGa’s Chakra’s point of view?
those are also principle.
See, no need TCM if one doesn’t like. It is universal stuffs.
Emei is part esoteric Buddhism…
But then, Check it.
“The Emei
posts their dynamics and their transformation into martial skills?”
Well, use it for health, one concentrate on breathing, body, mindfullness.
Use it for healing, one concentrate on what has happen and how to bring balance back. still mind/qi/body…
Use it for destroy, one concentrate…
just do the reverse… but then one has to take the consequence… the Karma.
Ya Ya… Hendrik is being wild again…
Thank you Hendrik. I admit that I find you a bit cryptic at times, as other do, but all the better at arousing my curiosity, LOL.
I do thank you very much for your poetic description. The qualities at least, if not the means to achieve, seem quite like what I am trying to learn as well.
On being a student or a master. My teacher also says he is but a humble student of Wing Chun, and asks us never to put the lid or titles of mastery on him. When all knowledge and skill is attained, learning ceases. In this sense, I too hope never to “master” Wing Chun. Assuming I have not misunderstood you, I admire your perspective on that as well.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo (another student)
Originally posted by old jong
[B]My simple belief is: In the beginning,you learn the form(s) then after some times related to you only,you start to learn from the form(s). The principles are hidden there,not in reasoning about them.
This means that Wing Chun could be lost for some times but could as well reappear (It’s principles) because anytimes somebody could rediscover it!.. [/B]
I think there may be an important point here, which should not get away too easily.
I don’t presume you mean to imply that an “empty shell of a form” will be sufficient to maintain the essence of Wing Chun through generations. That would, IMHO, play directly back into the initial question, and the human tendency to intentionally (or unintentionally) modify the sets.
If one were to separate the underlying concepts from the gross motions of the form, it would no longer be the same set or form. The essence of the sets is the concepts, IMHO. They just happen to be exceptionally well choreographed, and to a degree which makes me wonder if they can be further improved upon at all. But even I confess this is getting a bit too esoteric for a discussion board such as this, LOL.
Considering Old Jong’s comment from a slightly different angle though, my teacher frequently offers the following observations and advice:
- Smart people tend not to work hard.
- Don’t rely on smartness.
Too true, IMHO. Wing Chun is not in the sole purview of intelligentsia. I do believe there is such a thing as “analysis paralysis” and more than once have seen very smart people trip over their own intellect, especially in relying too heavily upon it.
[SIZE=1]kj curiously meanders to a nearby mirror, hoping - just this once! - to observe a hint of vagueness in the eyes, LOL.[/SIZE]
I could not agree with you more the necessity of learning Wing Chun through doing and experiencing. I completely agree that we learn from doing the forms, and build skill as well.
I am still on the look out for a single person who can truly understand Wing Chun through cogitation alone, let alone apply it.
IMHO, and in all things, balance. On this note, my teacher also succinctly and humorously advises us “You need to be smart enough to understand it and dumb enough to do it.” LOL.
So, Old Jong, if this bears any relation to what you’ve been poking at, then I cannot agree more. My apologies if I’ve missed your point entirely.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
My limited capacity’s in your language forbib me to be so as explicit as you are Kathy jo.I just do my best but we are in agreement.
When I talk about someone learning from the forms,I think of someone who should be smart and making his own researchs(I’m not talking about a beginner teaching himself here! I’m talking about an experimented Wing Chun practitioner who can walk by himself and look at the system with his own eyes).This is why some practitioner may get to a higher level than their teacher! Instead of standing on a plateau,they used it as a springboard . (But ,this is an other subject!)
I also talk about experience witch can only be felt. How could a teacher show a student how to root?..He will try to explain but only the student knows when he gets it.He fells it that’s all.This is only one example now,what about relaxation,all the little details concerning natural tensions that do not show visually?..I think there are lots of things a student must discover with and by practice only.There are things only the body can understand by muscle/structure or whatever memory!..The two sides must be there. Knowledge alone is useless and physical skill without knowledge would be very limited.
Anyway,smart people are often attracted to Wing Chun so…;)
Comments to Hendrik in brackets;
Hi Joy,
As I just post for KJ, I have not a thing. Just a student.
((Of course- me too))
By the way, one even can use the chakra system to check one’s SLT. Say if the the root Chakra is natually vibrate, open and close with breathing.
The heart Chakra is natually open and closing…
((Of course, the average YMCA hatha yoga folks are likely to miss
that. The muladhara, manipura, agni chakra are all important for alignment and energy))
If one tuck one’s pelvis dead or keep the elbow stuck…
will that be nature even with YoGa’s Chakra’s point of view?
those are also principle.
((Yup))
See, no need TCM if one doesn’t like. It is universal stuffs.
((nature at work. No one hasa monopoly in understanding))
Emei is part esoteric Buddhism…
But then, Check it.
“The Emei
posts their dynamics and their transformation into martial skills?”
Well, use it for health, one concentrate on breathing, body, mindfullness.
Use it for healing, one concentrate on what has happen and how to bring balance back. still mind/qi/body…
Use it for destroy, one concentrate…
just do the reverse… but then one has to take the consequence… the Karma.
((Absolutely…))
Ya Ya… Hendrik is being wild again…
((How is that?)))
Integrative WC
Originally posted by wingchunalex
I really like the article on integrative wing chun. i agree with the modification to the fook sau and wu sau and also with the way the hand is retracted. i liked the ideas. it inspires me to think about those things and see if i feel the need to make the same or similar adjustments. I thought it was one of the better articles to come out on wing chun recently. what does everyone else think?
Changing concepts wich are more than 300 years old?
Don´t think it´s a good idea. Maybe a result of misunderstanding?
T.
Originally posted by kj
[B]Thank you Hendrik. I admit that I find you a bit cryptic at times, as other do, but all the better at arousing my curiosity, LOL.
[/B]
Hi KJ,
LOL.
after spend decade with those cryptic writing and try to decode them, I think I might get the influence.
However, honestly, if these writings wer quote directly it is indeed cryptic because the way how we write these days are very different to those in the past century.
The ancient chinese always wrote in four letter or seven letters stanza or phrase. And one has to know some other content to read the stanza…
On the other hand, I have to admit that there are things I can’t post fully in public.
There also intention to stop those from stolen the information and use them to Up-grade thier own stuffs to promote thier own stuffs but insulting the ancestors.
As for student and master,
The more I read those writing. The more I know, I am far away… As the Chinese said, the heaven is high the earth is vast… very vast and deep indeed.
Best Regards
Hendrik
Re: Comments to Hendrik in brackets;
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]
Ya Ya… Hendrik is being wild again…
((How is that?))) [/B]
There is other paradigm.
Beyond the dimention we all familiar with…
Originally posted by Hendrik
[B]
Hi KJ,
LOL.
after spend decade with those cryptic writing and try to decode them, I think I might get the influence.
[/B]
No worries. My reading and interpretation can improve too.
[B]
However, honestly, if these writings wer quote directly it is indeed cryptic because the way how we write these days are very different to those in the past century.
The ancient chinese always wrote in four letter or seven letters stanza or phrase. And one has to know some other content to read the stanza…
[/B]
I appreciate what you describe here.
[B]
On the other hand, I have to admit that there are things I can’t post fully in public.
There also intention to stop those from stolen the information and use them to Up-grade thier own stuffs to promote thier own stuffs but insulting the ancestors.
[/B]
Yes, I can understand these too. There are always dilemmas. For me, I can wait patiently till the time is right, and retain a proper curiosity in the meantime.
As for student and master,
The more I read those writing. The more I know, I am far away… As the Chinese said, the heaven is high the earth is vast… very vast and deep indeed.
Yes, me too, Hendrik. The more I learn, the less I know.
BTW, in reference to some of your articles and photos on Rene’s site. I have also visited the Dian Chun Tong in Shanghai a couple of times, and saw the sites and artifacts you reference. My guides were helpful in explaining some history of the site(s) and area, but I still wish I could read Chinese for myself. I have a lot yet to learn.
Best Regards
Hendrik
Same to you.
- Kathy Jo