how exactly does one go about proving he or she studied privately with Yip Man?
Everyone has the same friggin picture of Yip Man and his drunk smile. Pictures cant be proof. So what is considered proof?
To get back to the subject, I believe that one reason that lineage is deemed to be more important now than ever is due to the decline of the challenge fight.
Back in the old days, if a new kf school opened in a town, it was common for representatives of the established schools in the vicinity to pay a visit to the new school. This visit might be pushing hands a la taichi, or a full contact challenge fight, but whatever form it took, it was intended to sort the pretenders from the real thing. If the instructor of the new school was unable to put up a good show, they would not be permitted to teach, and the school would have to close.
In Western eyes, in modern times, this would be seen as disrespectful. Yet why? We are trusting our money and our loyalty to an individual who may or may not be worthy of that trust. I sometimes wonder whether a few open challenges in the right areas might close down a lot of the McDojos we find today…
As there is no Trading Standards, or Office of Fair Trading of WC, we are left with lineage as the only indicator (and indication is all it is, until training is started) of a teachers ability.
On lineage with apologies to Rudyard Kipling’s The Ballad of East and West:
Oh East is east and West is West and never the twain shall meet
Though they wu sao night and day each at their own god’s feet
But there is no east or west nor border, lineage or birth
When two good wing chunners come face to face
Though they come from the ends of the earth!
yuanfen - very nice!
fgxpanzerz - a picture can’t be proof. Skill and knowledge is proof. Travel and try their hands for yourself. The key is knowing what to look for. In the last month, I’ve spent time with two other students of Yip Man besides my own instructor, one was a guest in my house. IMHO - they have their own lessons to teach and without a doubt know their Wing Chun, and were very impressive.
Does lineage mean anything? Only to one who knows what he’s looking for.
Thanks Mun Hung- who were the visitors?
Nosey -when it comes to wing chun!
yuanfen
I was fortunate enough to visit my SiBak Duncan Leung and workout at his school in Virginia Beach last month. That’s always a treat!
I also had the honor of spending the the last couple of days with my SiBak Hawkins Cheung as he came to visit my SiFu Allan Lee. A really nice guy and a true gentleman.
thoery about gung fu masters…
I have this theory that if any sifu who is worth anything could have only gotten that way by, KILLING OTHER PEOPLE. Sure, u can say whoever is a nice guy, but do u really know the person?
Lineage has a function to some degree.
Me personally, I like to know mine to give me a PERSONAL tree to trace in much the way of a family.
Though the old ‘My lineage is better than yours’ argument is futile and needless.
Just look at all the available paths before you decide which is right for you.
regards
Dave F
fgxpanzerz
“I have this theory that if any sifu is worth anything could have only gotten that way by, KILLING OTHER PEOPLE. Sure u can say whoever is a nice guy, but do u really know the person?”
I think you’ve been watching too many kung fu movies! 
Has your sifu killed anyone?
As far as knowing your lineage - it’s like knowing who your father is. Some people care. Some people don’t.
You know what I notice about a lot of gung fu people:
They love to talk about what they know but I hardly ever see them practicing gung fu.
lineage is for cowards
lineage is used by people to hid behind, so they don’t have to prove themselves. If your good, your sparring and to a much lesser extent, your chi sau is good. i know of teachers who get their teaching certificates by taking seminars with yip chun. 6 to 10 seminars and you are a “sifu”, no dedicated training, no putting your time in. now, supposedly yip man lineage is good, and you get someone who is a “seminar sifu”, just because the lineage is good, doesn’t make the teacher or studdent good. its like the wing chun styleists today who say they don’t have to sparr other styles cause they have the same lineage of the so called gong sau fighters like “the famed and master” william chueng. frankly, you can take someone and teach them 4 wing chun blocks, a straight puch, a thrust kick, bi jong, basic foot work, and turn out a lot better fighter with some hard work than someone who knows all the forms and applications and how things are “supposed to work” and rely on lineage to get out of doing the hard work that is required in learning to use wing chun. if a teacher knows wing chun, and knows how to apply it under presser, then it will show in the students. if you get a “lineage sifu” it will show in the students ablilty to sparr and use wing chun under pressure.
wingchunalex-sez
lineage is for cowards
------------------------------------------------------Some
(erroneous) over-generalization!
good lineage can be a helpful but not sufficient condition for learning an art well.
The problem is that some lineage links are entirely made up of
occasional seminar attendance. The devil is always in the details…
what you got from that lineage connection plus what you made of it yourself.
wingchunalex - I agree with yuanfen. Don’t assume that all who speak of “lineage” are cowards who don’t train hard and hide behind some name.
Tim - do you plan on coming out to Queens again? Too bad I did’nt get a chance to train with you. There’s a student in our school who says he knows you from Stoney. Maybe you two can meet up for some training.
Did you see any of the videos from the fellowship? You’re on some of them. I found it rather interesting.
Pete
I’ll be out in Queenz eventually. Chinese new year is coming up and I have to lion dance at a lot of showz for my school. I cant do anything till after the new year iz over. Marcus sent me an email about the guy from Stony Brook and I gave him my email. But the guy hasn’t emailed me back yet. Where are the videos from the fellowship? on a website?
wingchunAlex
I understand some of yor points but I have to say that it iz a little harsh. I dont know if my posted topics offend anyone, I hope not. I dont really take seriously anything that I post. I hope no one else does either. Actually, some of it is serious, but most is just cause I have nothing better to do while I’m online most of the time. koodos
I think Dave Farmer makes a good point lineage is not the be all and end all, but it is very important. You should look around for a while and you will find what suits you most.
Dont be blinkered either - look for the teacher who can teach well and explain things clearly, and is willing to share their knowledge openly. Dont go for a teacher purely because he looks like he can beat seven bells out of someone!
Be mature in your decision - if you decide to leave one lineage for another it is not beacause one is better than the other, it is because you are more suited to that particular style.
Keep a level head and enjoy your WC.
Best wishes, Stuart
Re: Importance of Wing Chun lineage
Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
People have asked me what lineage I come from. Who cares? Why does it matter? All everyone needs to know iz that there is good Wing chun and sh*tty wing Chun.
Originally posted by stuartm
if you decide to leave one lineage for another it is not beacause one is better than the other, it is because you are more suited to that particular style.
How does the first quote jive with the second?
IMO, shtiness in Wing Chun comes from shty instructors, not from lineages…
Juan sez:IMO, shtiness in Wing Chun comes from shty instructors, not from lineages…
IMO- from shi**y or made up lineages too.
Yuanfen,
again this is my opinion, but I don’t believe that a lineage that as survived for long can be sh*tty, only misunderstood. On the other hand, fake lineages are easily revealed over time and more rapidly these days. Kind of like natural selection.