Anyone who thinks forms are useless has never really trained them.
In old forms (from the north) the movements are EXTREME. Why is this good? Because when you first practice the move, you can’t do it at all, but because its in the form you keep working at it until you can do it quickly. This increases the RANGE of movement available to you.
Many of you spend hours increasing strength, and thats great. but most people increase strength over a small range of movement that they were already strong at. Forms force you into contorted positions quickly. They increase the RANGE of movement for every group of muscles in the body.
If you have ever Really practiced forms, and i mean REally, you will notice the difference next time you spar.
Because of increased waist flexibility you will punch one inch further, and that makes all the difference. When you duck you will duck that much lower, and faster. IT effects every move you make.
What I find amusing is many of you who bash forms have probably never even tried them properly.
Lastly southern forms and northern forms are very different. Some southern ones are just hand moves and a less useful, but northern forms require the whole body movement. Require SHEN FA. Some norhern forms have remained largely unchanged for 1000 years. THis is not true in the south where the age is closer to 300. SInce china has been closed off for so long most of the kung fu we have in the west is from isolated pockets like hong kong and taiwan. Most of you have probably never even seen real northern kung fu.
ANYWAY, DONT KNOCK SOMETHING TILL YOU TRY IT.
Do 3 months of modern wushu (sine it is form only) or gymnastics and see how much it improves your ability in sparring. I guarantee you won’t be dissapointed. AGILITY IS EVERYTHING! Muscle is function specific and range of useful motion is more important than being strong over a small distance.
I agree some katas the way you guys do them may not be so useful but most ancient form in northern china is more like this;
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1064487]Anyways the original premise of this thread is flawed to begin with. Forms have not become obsolete in the face of MMA. They were always inadequate training tools to begin with. Its only recently because of things like MMA that people are actually giving a crap and calling it out. [/QUOTE]
oh bullsh1t. Except for a very few forms that are used for very specific developmental training, forms are NOT a training method, not shadowboxing, not a tool, but a textbook, and in most cases, reserved only for lineage bearers(sp?)
let this crap go already. It’s a stupid conversation.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1064515]oh bullsh1t. Except for a very few forms that are used for very specific developmental training, forms are NOT a training method, not shadowboxing, not a tool, but a textbook, and in most cases, reserved only for lineage bearers(sp?)
let this crap go already. It’s a stupid conversation.[/QUOTE]
Really? You really just said a joke of a post like this? You of all people? Tell ya what tell that to the dime a dozen sifu out there using forms to teach their students. Reserved for lineage bearers? Is that why there’s only about 100 kids doing forms comp and maybe 4 entering san shou?
Look I realize how YOU teach is one thing. But what you are doing is NOT what the masses are doing. I can’t count how many times you and Earthdragon and Mooying and the like keep saying, “Y’all need to see more kung fu schools.” No, YOU need to see more kung fu schools. I myself have been in 5 different ones. ALL of them, the first thing they try to do is teach forms. Poster after poster comes on here with the same story, the kwoons they are going in are all doing nothing but forms. Any kung fu tourny you go to, 50-100 people doing forms comp that takes up 2-3 days of judging. You’re lucky if there’s anyone to fight in your weight in san shou. Hell even technical sparring might get all of a dozen participants. Go to the park, people are smoking cigs and doing forms. Everything in kung fu has been relegated to forms. Hell even conditioning (iron wire, etc). I want to see legit kung fu make it as much as anybody. Because it does have a lot of history and its the first art I fell in love with. But the majority of the masses, all they are doing is forms forms forms. That’s just the reality of it.
I agree, forms are NOT a training method. But 9 out of 10 sifu are using them for that very purpose.
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1064518]Really? You really just said a joke of a post like this? You of all people? Tell ya what tell that to the dime a dozen sifu out there using forms to teach their students. Reserved for lineage bearers? Is that why there’s only about 100 kids doing forms comp and maybe 4 entering san shou?
Look I realize how YOU teach is one thing. But what you are doing is NOT what the masses are doing. I can’t count how many times you and Earthdragon and Mooying and the like keep saying, “Y’all need to see more kung fu schools.” No, YOU need to see more kung fu schools. I myself have been in 5 different ones. ALL of them, the first thing they try to do is teach forms. Poster after poster comes on here with the same story, the kwoons they are going in are all doing nothing but forms. Any kung fu tourny you go to, 50-100 people doing forms comp that takes up 2-3 days of judging. You’re lucky if there’s anyone to fight in your weight in san shou. Hell even technical sparring might get all of a dozen participants.[/QUOTE]
Hey, I don’t dissagree with you on this at all. You are 1oo% on the money.
I’m just sayin’ it ain’t right.
that being said, I still teach forms, btw. But I make no claims about it being some sort of fight training. I do feel it gives students a piece of the history, something to pass down to the next generation, etc
I enjoy forms. Always have. They’re fun to do, interesting to learn, make you feel great, etc. But, it is what it is. It’s not a substitute for drilling, partner work, lien gung, and sparring. As far as exercise? Sure, they can be tools for stamina. They are less boring than endless repitition, But so can line drills. So can anything.
Ugh… this thread is depressing. There’s only 3 kung fu schools all around 2 hours drive from where I live.
1 does shaolin and sifu told me when I went in that they do forms and 1 steps. He doesn’t let his students spar and he told me he thinks sparring is less effective than prearranged defenses. I watch his students and not a one of them had any concept of what it meant to fight. When they do accidentally punch each other in drills the offender is actually required to go do pushups. For doing something that should be happening anyways.
2nd hung gar and I had to beg to cross hands with anyone. No sparring in group classes. I had to take private lessons to spar anyone. But in groups they’ll spend an hour training horse stance. Really? Do that at home when you’re alone.
3rd was another Shaolin school. Everyone was geriatric and would be no benefit to me in training for my personal goals.
As for the rest, mantis school in FL. By time I left I had like between 15-20 forms. I forget exactly. But I don’t have to say anymore than that I think.
And a run in with Shaolin do while I was military. Blue belts and purple belts with 8 months of training trying to tell me I was doing a technique wrong. Well until I did it on them. Ugh…
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1064513]Anyone who thinks forms are useless has never really “trained” them.[/QUOTE]
I have always consider myself as a TCMA guy but I don’t train forms. I was taught that “form is for teaching and learning only, it’s not for training.”
I have leaned more than 50 forms in my life (I learned my 1st form when I was 7). After I have repeated my forms many times, and I know that I can remember my forms for the rest of my life, I dion’t do my forms any more. I only train “drills” after that.
Here are drills that I train daily when I don’t have partner:
right hook punch, right back fist, left upper cut.
right front kick, left roundhouse kick, left side kick.
leg twist, leg lift, leg block.
…
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1064521]I do feel it gives students a piece of the history, something to pass down to the next generation, etc.[/QUOTE]
I have a student who has been with me for 8 years now. I have not taught him any forms yet. I told him that the day he will be too old to compete in tournaments, the day I’ll teach him forms (so he can pass it down to the next generation).
A friend of mine taught his students all the Yang Taiji moves in the form as drills. But he had never linked those moves from the 1st move to the last move. He told his students to link those moves anway they prefer.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1064525]A friend of mine taught his students all the Yang Taiji moves in the form as drills. But he had never linked those moves from the 1st move to the last move. He told his students to link those moves anway they prefer.[/QUOTE]
This is correct thinking!
[QUOTE=bawang;1064527]what ruined american kung fu is not forms, its greed.
american kung fu is small fringe group , so its not a big deal if kung fu dies in america.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1064525]I have always consider myself as a TCMA guy but I don’t train forms. I was taught that “form is for teaching and learning only, it’s not for training.”
[/QUOTE]
Well, I think forms are very much for training. They train agility like nothing else.
For example if you only train against your opponent or a target your technique quickly reaches a limit. Because you only do it within its realistic proportions. However if you ‘extremify’ this move and train it, you can take it far past its limit. You can never do this in sparring because you are trying to apply the move so you do it only partially correct, just do it fast enough to work.
The more you train the technique past its limit, the more you notice during sparring that your technique has improved. That you can bend that little further than before… Form trains your body in this way. Range of movement.
Plus form does more than this. Practicing form you will come to a great deal of realizations about the principles of kung fu. Old forms were constructed like poems. The strategy of the master is written in the sequence and symmetry of the form. Its not just a load of random moves put together. Of course the forms of say northern shaolin are older and more profound than those of many younger styles.
By not teaching form i think you are denying your student the oppertunity to meditate on some of the principles of kung fu himself.
If we take a single move from an old form, it has hundreds of applications.
However if we only train the move in application we will only train one or two of these applications.
By training the movement in form we gradually start to realise the ‘PRINCIPLE OF MOVEMENT’ we start to learn the formula behind the technique. Once we have this we can dispose of form entirely and rely on the principles of kung fu to fight with.
If you only ever train the specific applications of moves it is harder to learn these underlying principles.
By training form you can unlock these principles and move from form to formlessness in combat. However going straight to formlessness is not so easy.
NOt saying form can be trained alon and make you a good fighter, but it does help as part of your training and i think it should be trained along with sparring and striking and all the rest.
sparring doesnt give u the magical feeling form does. americans train forms because it makes them feel good about themselves. thats why so many kung fu people do forms so bad but theyre oblivious to it. theyre lost in the magical moment rofl
down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus[/QUOTE]
bawang, that was truly inspirational; just one thing tho - did your mom loose a lot of weight recently? because on stage w the microphone, she looks a lot smaller than in the pic that you have of her in your sig; just wondering if she was ok…
I cant belevie we are still having this discussion!!!
everything has its purpose when learning MA. One of these is forms. ORIGINALLY forms where a way to remember the movements taught to you by your illiterate shifu since most could not read or write.
some of these forms were also in a poem or song to help rememeber.
Its the dumb ass American people that dont understand thier purpose and say things like
you cant fight with a form
forms are not good training tools.
forms cant make you learn MMA
forms is a silly way to learn kung fu
shifu’s who teach forms dotn know how to fight
They have no place in modern times
I am sooo tired of this BS. understand that forms are the notebook of knowledge in a sequence to rememeber the specific movements which BTW have applications. When you learn the applications you learn to defend yourself. and thus learn kung fu.
It may be true that some people use them in the wrong way but americans can abuse anything in my opionon. not just forms. we abuse food for God’s sake!
Soco you said the 5 schools you vistied in SC sucked. well the same goes for your pizzeria’s I’ve been to SC… does that mean that every pizzeria is the same? NO find on you like and you will be happy, but dont bash pizza as a whole.
I teach 5 forms and its applications and our forms are from poems. Do they help you to fight? in some ways yes
balance
agility adn flexability
endurance.
muslce memory and strength
strengthening your foundation
fluidity of movement
power generation and placement
do these help when it comes time to fight? YES… are forms and effecitve tool absolutley… shoudl they be taught without application? NO. Do SOME teachers that dont know how to apply thier knowledge use them as sheilds? YES can we ever end this same dead horse conversation??? maybe
[QUOTE=bawang;1064532]sparring doesnt give u the magical feeling form does. americans train forms because it makes them feel good about themselves. thats why so many kung fu people do forms so bad but theyre oblivious to it. theyre lost in the magical moment rofl[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1064548]I cant belevie we are still having this discussion!!!
everything has its purpose when learning MA. One of these is forms. ORIGINALLY forms where a way to remember the movements taught to you by your illiterate shifu since most could not read or write.
some of these forms were also in a poem or song to help rememeber.
Its the dumb ass American people that dont understand thier purpose and say things like
you cant fight with a form
forms are not good training tools.
forms cant make you learn MMA
forms is a silly way to learn kung fu
shifu’s who teach forms dotn know how to fight
They have no place in modern times
I am sooo tired of this BS. understand that forms are the notebook of knowledge in a sequence to rememeber the specific movements which BTW have applications. When you learn the applications you learn to defend yourself. and thus learn kung fu.
It may be true that some people use them in the wrong way but americans can abuse anything in my opionon. not just forms. we abuse food for God’s sake!
Soco you said the 5 schools you vistied in SC sucked. well the same goes for your pizzeria’s I’ve been to SC… does that mean that every pizzeria is the same? NO find on you like and you will be happy, but dont bash pizza as a whole.
I teach 5 forms and its applications and our forms are from poems. Do they help you to fight? in some ways yes
balance
agility adn flexability
endurance.
muslce memory and strength
strengthening your foundation
fluidity of movement
power generation and placement
do these help when it comes time to fight? YES… are forms and effecitve tool absolutley… shoudl they be taught without application? NO. Do SOME teachers that dont know how to apply thier knowledge use them as sheilds? YES can we ever end this same dead horse conversation??? maybe[/QUOTE]
Great post Earthdragon. The logic behind forms training was well put and there is no excuse for not understanding what you wrote.
However, I have a feeling that the none-TCMA, MMA people, who insist on cluelessly badmouthing traditional kung fu methodlogies, will not have made heads or tales out of it, but then logical thinking and deduction was never their forte.
