If you are a TCMA teacher and you don’t teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?
Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, …) system without teaching forms?
I have never practiced anything as a long form. Very short forms consisting of a half dozen movements containing techniques but not mix and match combinations. This is a practice I gravitated to many years ago so I really don’t think of doing otherwise. In teaching I would also promote this practice but have never cared to teach what I know, designed for my own use.
If we look at the boxing system:
1 - jab,
2 - cross,
3 - hook,
4 - uppercut,
If you always start from jab, and also assume you alway alternative your left and right hands, for 4 moves combo, you will have 1 (jab only) x 3 (can be cross, or hook, or uppercut), x 3 (can be jab, or hook, or uppercut) x 3 (can be cross, or hook, or uppercut) = 27 different 4 moves combos. If you want, you can link it ito 27 x 4 = 108 moves boxing form (same number of moves as the Yang taiji long form). If you don’t care about form, you can always have just 27 drills.
Of course if you use one hand to do multiple strikes such as low hook, medium hook, high hook, you will have more drills.
Why can’t we use “permutation method” to teach TCMA? Since not all permutation will make sense, we will have less number of combos come out of this mathematics model. Of course we can apply this into defense, footwork, kicks, lock, throws, … or mix of all those.
not a teacher per se…but guess would be same as now - techniques, combinations, drills, apparatus, combat …no difference …and name would be same: Tongbei Quan (we don’t care too much about forms)…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1231891]If you are a TCMA teacher and you don’t teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?
Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, …) system without teaching forms?[/QUOTE]
There is a branch of wing chun from Ku Lo village that does not teach forms and instead teaches through a series of points.
forms is 1% of what you teach in real kung fu. example:
"when to hit with confidence
- hit the young, 2. hit the old. 3. hit the one with shaking hands, 4. hopping alot 5. lowers the head 6. changes stance 7. distracted 8. slow hands"
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1231894]
Why can’t we use “permutation method” to teach TCMA? Since not all permutation will make sense, we will have less number of combos come out of this mathematics model. Of course we can apply this into defense, footwork, kicks, lock, throws, … or mix of all those.[/QUOTE]
of course northern kung fu has drills with jab cross kick. chinese people are not retarded.
[QUOTE=bawang;1231910]forms is 1% of what you teach in real kung fu. example:
"when to hit with confidence
- hit the young, 2. hit the old. 3. hit the one with shaking hands, 4. hopping alot 5. lowers the head 6. changes stance 7. distracted 8. slow hands"
northern kung fu uses permutation method. its called five elements.[/QUOTE]
Lol ! 
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1231891]If you are a TCMA teacher and you don’t teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?
Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, …) system without teaching forms?[/QUOTE]
In mantis, forms pass the traditions and movements taught in the last 150 years. Though all the strategies and theories of the system can be taught without forms.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1231891]If you are a TCMA teacher and you don’t teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?
Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, …) system without teaching forms?[/QUOTE]
Since we walk with one step at a time,
we learn or drill one move or one technique at a time.
-
single move/technique.
-
combo of a few moves/techniques
-
free sparring with learned move/technique.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1231931]In mantis, forms pass the traditions and movements taught in the last 150 years. Though all the strategies and theories of the system can be taught without forms.[/QUOTE]
shaolin kung fu has over 50 combinations of jab and cross. if people just stop stop obsessing over forms, they can find real kung fu easily.
if someone just teach you forms, he is worthless and his kung fu is worthless. paying thousands of dollars to learn forms for 10 years is a horrible waste of time and money, a horrible waste of your life, you can learn everything he knows from a dvd in 30 minutes.
Forms are for leaning. Once you have ‘learned’ the forms, what do you do?
And when I say learned the forms, I mean 10,000 times kinda learned, not ‘remembered’.
Palmstriker pointed out an obvious conclusion, you practice what you need to fight, your consolidated ‘favorites’ or ‘proven’ techniques, and you hone them 10,000 times.
You practice Kungs, small exercises that may change the way your body works, so you can do some of your key techniques better…and better…and better…
There are a couple of different takes on ‘forms’ as well. Some are just a collection of moves, combinations, etc. They train you in technique, co-ordination, stamina, etc.
Other forms train core skills, which can be applied to any technique… i.e a form that teaches speed, as opposed to learning the 9 punch combination, 1,2,3,4,5,6…etc. Or one that teaches breath management through an extra exerting series of exercises.
Some forms contained both at one point, but the subtlety was lost by ‘crippled children’.
Just to add, forms practice has a whole spectrum beyond fighting as well, and while some people may pass it up, I’ve continued to enjoy forms training, and probably always will.
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1231958]
Some forms contained both at one point, but the subtlety was lost by ‘crippled children’.
Just to add, forms practice has a whole spectrum beyond fighting as well, and while some people may pass it up, I’ve continued to enjoy forms training, and probably always will.[/QUOTE]
i also enjoy forms. i just cant pay 10 dollars an hour for it ever again.
[QUOTE=bawang;1231992]i also enjoy forms. i just cant pay 10 dollars an hour for it ever again.[/QUOTE]
<shurgs> Yea, I get it. I do forms training in my own time mostly now days, only a bit at training, when I have some time.
[QUOTE=bawang;1231992]i also enjoy forms. i just cant pay 10 dollars an hour for it ever again.[/QUOTE]
That’s wisdom right there.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1231891]If you are a TCMA teacher and you don’t teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?
[/QUOTE]
Jeet Kune Do
I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.
It applies to anything, the argument of depth vs breadth.
When I first started Pak Mei, there was so much of the art that was just inaccessible, didn’t feel comfortable and I couldn’t execute it live to save my life, or when I did, I got cleaned up. I knew the score already from kickboxing, and it puzzled me.
I didn’t really give a rat’s a$$, it was a challenge, I saw it working off Sifu’s hands so I knew it was possible. Piece by piece, little things came together, the stuff started to work, incremental rewards, like pavlov’s dogs…
And of course, there was all the stuff I never expected, which just started making sense as the things tied together. Like the mysterous ‘internal’ power…
I look at it this way, there are an ultimately unlimited number of options on how to fight. I didn’t intend to pick one. I reckon I was just lucky to fall in with an art that had so much to offer over such a long time. Like reading a good book, it just keeps you turning the pages. I know how uncommon that is. Why so is a topic for further debate.
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1232079]I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.[/QUOTE]
If
- Bill Gates was satisfied with his MS DOS, there won’t be Window today.
- Steve Jobs was satisfied with his Apple Lisa, there won’t be Ipod today.
If Bruce Lee was satisfied with his WC, the best that he could do was a good WC instructor, no more and no less. There won’t be JKD today. Some people are satisfied just to be a good copy machine. Some people want more in their lifetime.
If you don ’ t teach forms…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1231891]If you are a TCMA teacher and you don’t teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?
Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, …) system without teaching forms?[/QUOTE] YouKnowWho , maybe you know this already forms or set is for traditional purposes but it ’ s really the applications that you ’ re going to use the most for fighting or self defense .
If I were a TCMA I would teach the usages to the 1st set or forms , because to me
it ’ ll take time and patient for each student to absorb the set or forms within themselves so I would teach the applications which lead to the movements of the 1st form , and go on from there .
If I were to teach Wing Chun as an example , I would teach the applications to the 1st forms or set , and show the students how one application would lead to what movement of the set or forms .
Or I can just teach them all the basic block and strikes of the WC system so they can practice some self defense techniques and no to forget kicks and everything which pertains to street defense situations . The samething you can do with praying mantis or longfist . You ’ re still teaching the style regardless if you teach them WC , longfist , praying mantis . Because to me it ’ s the applications to the set or forms in a kung fu system or style which is basically the secret of the system or style in general . Then that way the students can find it interesting to learn and practice kung fu regardless of style or system under their own sifu , but it all deoends on what the sifu himself or simu herself wants to teach the student themselves .
Lance
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1232079]I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.
It applies to anything, the argument of depth vs breadth.
When I first started Pak Mei, there was so much of the art that was just inaccessible, didn’t feel comfortable and I couldn’t execute it live to save my life, or when I did, I got cleaned up. I knew the score already from kickboxing, and it puzzled me.
I didn’t really give a rat’s a$$, it was a challenge, I saw it working off Sifu’s hands so I knew it was possible. Piece by piece, little things came together, the stuff started to work, incremental rewards, like pavlov’s dogs…
And of course, there was all the stuff I never expected, which just started making sense as the things tied together. Like the mysterous ‘internal’ power…
I look at it this way, there are an ultimately unlimited number of options on how to fight. I didn’t intend to pick one. I reckon I was just lucky to fall in with an art that had so much to offer over such a long time. Like reading a good book, it just keeps you turning the pages. I know how uncommon that is. Why so is a topic for further debate.[/QUOTE]
Every so often someone likes to mention how hard they train, and they call that “eating bitter” – as if everyone else who is serious isn’t training hard, lol. The real “eating bitter” is to be someone like Bruce Lee, who sees a big part of the truth, but is then ridiculed and slagged off by people who don’t.