And most TCMA forms people spend time trying to perfect the boring @ss forms! I say go for the grandiose. The bigger the better. After the basics of basic training forms - forms all become redundant anyway (only people with 10 or more years TCMA experience can make comments on redundancy).
So why all the secrecy, why all the waiting to give students the so called advanced sets? I say give 'em the good ones while they’re young enough to still make 'em look good when they’re performing them!
Forms are just another tool in the kung fu teacher’s list of different ways to improve his students skill. There are many ways to teach MA and you do not have to have forms. However, most kung fu teachers use forms in their curriculum’s. If you do not like forms… this ok, just don’t hate on them. I practiced forms for over 20 years and both myself and my students are competent fighters.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1065343]And most TCMA forms people spend time trying to perfect the boring @ss forms! I say go for the grandiose. The bigger the better. After the basics of basic training forms - forms all become redundant anyway (only people with 10 or more years TCMA experience can make comments on redundancy).
So why all the secrecy, why all the waiting to give students the so called advanced sets? I say give 'em the good ones while they’re young enough to still make 'em look good when they’re performing them!
Now suck on that :mad: ;)[/QUOTE]
Forms are usually taught progressively.
Plainly speaking, beginners are often physically incapable of doing advanced sets and must therefore first be equipped with training that will develop the attributes and ability required to perform the advanced sets.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1065347]Forms are usually taught progressively.
Plainly speaking, beginners are often physically incapable of doing advanced sets and must therefore first be equipped with training that will develop the attributes and ability required to perform the advanced sets.[/QUOTE]
Basics can be developed in line drills - watch the Chinese Wushu players.
Here’s my take:
I often find that one of two things happen with the traditional model: A. The teacher isn’t as good as he believes himself to be, or B. The teacher is underestimating himself and the abilities of the student.
Now take a student of average intelligence and physical ability. It’s much better to introduce that person to advanced movement earlier in their career and earlier in their life. Why? So they have time and the physical capacity to develop those illusory traits that we’re supposed to be after.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1065346]Forms are just another tool in the kung fu teacher’s list of different ways to improve his students skill. There are many ways to teach MA and you do not have to have forms. However, most kung fu teachers use forms in their curriculum’s. If you do not like forms… this ok, just don’t hate on them. I practiced forms for over 20 years and both myself and my students are competent fighters.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
I’m trolling a bit - but then I’m not - so don’t take this thread too seriously
What I’m hoping to do is challenge the traditional notion of progressing through forms. To me forms are an expression of movement, and taken to the extreme, they can be quite fun. Now I do agree that you do have to develop some basic attributes to be able to perform the higher level forms. These being primarily balance, coordination, flexibility, endurance, and leg strength. That is the primary role of the “beginner” forms and line drills. But, what happens is we require students to stay at these so called beginner and intermediate levels for far too long. I believe that once the primary attributes are developed to a minor level of competence - we should then teach that person at least one “high level” form.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1065348]Now take a student of average intelligence and physical ability. It’s much better to introduce that person to advanced movement earlier in their career and earlier in their life. Why? So they have time and the physical capacity to develop those illusory traits that we’re supposed to be after.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Basics need to be firmly grasped before you move on to more complicated techniques.
No point in showing rubber guard to someone who can’t even do a triangle, afterall.
No video cameras, most of the people involved with semi to down right illiterate, a teacher often had a small group he trained semi privately
Forms were ways to get students to do the same techniques over and over again.
Forms were a way to practice if you didn’t have a lot of class mates to work with
Forms kept certain techniques and idea in “archive” because if you weren’t literate you couldn’t write this stuff down
Later on, forms were a great (easy) way to run a commercial school
The more forms, the longer you had to stay (and pay) to learn the “whole system”, you could also hang the “advanced” set over them like a carrot
In even more recent times, the “performance” of forms took importance. Now people spend time “looking good” and the real point is often lost entirely
I don’t hate forms, I just think they are outdated, I don’t have strong feelings about outdated technology, I just understand there is newer and better ways to do things
“Now take a student of average intelligence and physical ability. It’s much better to introduce that person to advanced movement earlier in their career and earlier in their life. Why? So they have time and the physical capacity to develop those illusory traits that we’re supposed to be after.”
not true. there is a certain quality of movement that only comes with understanding oneself-which only comes with time spent. Teaching someone a more complex, or rather a move with subtle complexities, requires this time/foundation.
Sure, you can start them early, but it will still take time to develop.
Watch beginners do Tai-Chi. Then watch them after ten years in.
Watch what happens when a teacher gives a beginner in Karate a more advanced form for competition. It’s pathetic. The student has not “ripened,” and the form is obviously more advanced than the student’s skills.
Certain things require time, and continuoius effort, in order to develop.
Hense the term,“Gung-Fu.”
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1065350]I disagree. Basics need to be firmly grasped before you move on to more complicated techniques.
[/QUOTE]
I can see your point, but why? Meaning - if I can get someone flexible enough to kick high and they have good energy and can jump and land safely - shouldn’t it be easier to get them to do barrel rolls, hand/head springs, kip ups, butterfly kicks etc while they’re young? So shouldn’t the pressure be on me to get them the competence needed to perform the advanced set?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1065352] there is a certain quality of movement that only comes with understanding oneself-which only comes with time spent. Teaching someone a more complex, or rather a move with subtle complexities, requires this time/foundation.
Sure, you can start them early, but it will still take time to develop.
[/QUOTE]
I agree, but - to start someone on these “complex” movements after 5, 6, 7 (arbitrary number) of years of training is doing that person a disservice IMO. It would be far better to teach them those complex movements after about 6 months to a year so that they have more years to perfect those movements. It would be interesting to compare a 7 year student who’s worked on a complex movement for 6 years against a 7 year student who’s worked on a complex movement for 6 months.
A fine wine develops with time but first you have to bottle the grape juice.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1065351]
Later on, forms were a great (easy) way to run a commercial school
The more forms, the longer you had to stay (and pay) to learn the “whole system”, you could also hang the “advanced” set over them like a carrot
In even more recent times, the “performance” of forms took importance. Now people spend time “looking good” and the real point is often lost entirely
[/QUOTE]
if you teach someone the applications, starting a newer student on an advanced form isnt that big of a stretch.
they will ‘grow into it’. at first they wont peform it as well as someone who learned all the forms in the cirriculum, but they can probably be up to speed on the advanced set, time line wise, before they would had they learned every single form before it.
it does really depends on the person though, if they are physically coordinated and possess adequate attributes then there shouldnt be a problem. they also cant be stupid.
‘combat’ forms arent that special. beginner sets can certainly bring you along progressively to the more advanced material, but it isnt entirely necessary in most cases. especially if the student has prior MA experience.
example, if fedor all of a sudden decided to learn kungfu and decided to go with…lets say hung gar. do you think he would not be capable of learning an advanced set right away? of course he could.
Your kinda thinking the wrong way. Anyone (beginner and advanced) can do jumping or flying kicks or “Advanced” moves right away. However, to give a beginner this material is a mistake I made years ago. Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury. I wanted all my students to have everything as quickly they could. It ends up, if they don’t have the basics perfected it leads to problems with every other form or technique they do afterward. What happens next is that all there stuff is junk and it is hard to fix later on.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1065362]Your kinda thinking the wrong way. Anyone (beginner and advanced) can do jumping or flying kicks or “Advanced” moves right away. However, to give a beginner this material is a mistake I made years ago. Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury. I wanted all my students to have everything as quickly they could. It ends up, if they don’t have the basics perfected it leads to problems with every other form or technique they do afterward. What happens next is that all there stuff is junk and it is hard to fix later on.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
I agree with this 100%…again. lol
Also, it’s worthy of note that some people do not learn the sets of a system until after they have basics, line drills , structure development as well as strength and endurance training underway.
Some systems have very few sets, some as few as 2 really with weapons sets on top of that. I only really practice a few sets from the many I have learned. Quite frankly, the reiterative quality of sets is not lost on me and I at this stage have moved on to that which is beyond set training.
I still enjoy practicing a set or two now and then. Feels good, provides exercise and well, the body is better for it afterwards.
[QUOTE=bawang;1065361]theres no such thing as an advanced set. its just to make money from white people.[/QUOTE]
I disagree !
To perform a set like Hung Gar’s Iron Wire takes a couple of years of training of the basics before you will be able to “Do It Right”. You will not be able to achieve the benefits of the form, because you lack the skills to do it properly.
if you take a new student who has 15 year experience, is he looked at as incompetent as a 15 year old new to MA in general? how do you decide to progress someone who has prior experience, maybe in something like muay thai or judo?
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1065362]Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
I can agree - but I don’t think there’s a good way to define when a person is not a “beginner” based on an arbitrary number of forms. Some people display the needed attributes very early. I think there’s a failure on the part of the teacher if he/she doesn’t recognize when that happens based on a false notion of tradition. One way of looking at it is in systems where there are a lot of forms, you often see some difference in how schools define what sets are “advanced”.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1065367]beginner in MA or just beginner in style
if you take a new student who has 15 year experience, is he looked at as incompetent as a 15 year old new to MA in general?[/QUOTE]
Yes and no:
Different styles of MA have different theories. 15 years of Kenpo gives you a big problem in kung fu. How you move, how you strike is way different.
Example:
Some styles pivot on the balls of their foot. Some styles pivot on their heels. If you have been pivoting on the ball of your foot for 15 years and your new style pivots on the heel, you probably need to start over and get the basics of the new system.
Forms, by their typical definition, are a set of pre-arranged moves done in a predetermined fashion.
They serve a purpose and historically that purpose was, like Ross mentioned, to catalogue techniuues, principles the core of the system.
You will find forms in every MA to one degree or another, but Asian MA tend to “*****” the notion of continuing to do prearranged forms even with the basic concept is grasped and progression is better accomplished in a “free style manner” as in the case of Most sport combat systems or armed combat systems.
Let us using boxing as an example:
From early one Boxing had prearranged forms, these form became more like prearragned drills like the ones we have today, once the boxer has grasped the basics he moves on to “freestyle” form called shadowboxing.
Western and many eastern forms of armed and unarmed combat follow this mode.
