[QUOTE=ginosifu;1065365]I disagree !
To perform a set like Hung Gar’s Iron Wire takes a couple of years of training of the basics before you will be able to “Do It Right”. You will not be able to achieve the benefits of the form, because you lack the skills to do it properly.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
i dont know anything about iron wire so ill take ur word. but other than that theres nothing special about any other advanced form. its all the same.
I ususally do single move drills or dan cao shou.
or combo of a few moves strung together.
longer forms have special focus or theme.
forms = single move, combo move strung together.
you may take forms apart and practice each move or posture over and over.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1065369]Yes and no:
Different styles of MA have different theories. 15 years of Kenpo gives you a big problem in kung fu. How you move, how you strike is way different.
Example:
Some styles pivot on the balls of their foot. Some styles pivot on their heels. If you have been pivoting on the ball of your foot for 15 years and your new style pivots on the heel, you probably need to start over and get the basics of the new system.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
Food for thought…
gotcha. i remember one time we were practicing flying sidekick on the heavy bag, i watched someone tear their acl doing that…i suppose they werent ready for it. they had 5+ years on top of me and I fly like batman. so i suppose that the principles can sometimes be more important than the physical qualifications.
[QUOTE=bawang;1065372]i dont know anything about iron wire so ill take ur word. but other than that theres nothing special about any other advanced form. its all the same.[/QUOTE]
In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?
Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that… 
as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called “internal” work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1065368]I can agree - but I don’t think there’s a good way to define when a person is not a “beginner” based on an arbitrary number of forms. Some people display the needed attributes very early. I think there’s a failure on the part of the teacher if he/she doesn’t recognize when that happens based on a false notion of tradition. One way of looking at it is in systems where there are a lot of forms, you often see some difference in how schools define what sets are “advanced”.[/QUOTE]
I have given students with exceptional skills, “Higher Level” forms for tournaments. If they do not compete, why do they need this material? To show off that they can do it? If the argument is for tournament competitions… yes to an extent we can give higher level forms, but only to those with exceptional skills.
ginosifu
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1065377]In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
.[/QUOTE]
and what combat use does this move serve?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1065377]In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?
Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that… :p[/QUOTE]
Yes - if you take a person with moderate to high athletic ability… yes. But first you’d need to train the splits until they can do them comfortably, and then you need to train the cartwheel. You can take a varsity high school cheer leader and train her this technique tomorrow if you’d like and you’d see that Yes, she can indeed be taught this movement and have no prior MA training.
This begs a different question: Why is there a need to do the splits after doing a one-handed cartwheel?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1065377]In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?
Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that…
as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called “internal” work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.[/QUOTE]
that depends on what u think is “advanced”. i think acrobatic movements doesnt equal advanced fighting concepts. flippin and spinnin is hard to do, but has nothing to do with fighting.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1065377]In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?
Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that…
as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called “internal” work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.[/QUOTE]
i agree with what you are saying about advanced physical techniques. but that in itself can be another can of worms. there are those that would say, you never need 1 hand cartwheel to splits.
however i recently saw a judo turney where an escape was made via 1 arm cartwheel 
[QUOTE=MightyB;1065381]
This begs a different question: Why is there a need to do the splits after doing a one-handed cartwheel?[/QUOTE]
dodge the shuriken with the cartwheel drop down to splits to duck the sword strike to head:D
I think that only forms that can be classified as advanced are those that require more physical skill than those classified as basic.
That doesn’t make them “advanced” in an esoteric way, just advanced in a physical way.
of course some people can do advanced forms in months and others need years to do a basic one.
It’s all relevant.
TKD has advanced forms that require mulitple high kicks from the same leg with no lowering and then a jumping spinning kick from the base leg without lowering the raised one.
Advanced obviously, but nothing that anyone with a decent skill level can’t do.
We had a guy that was a gymnast that did advanced forms better than guys that had been doing TKD for decades and he was only in it for a couple of years.
[QUOTE=goju;1065386]dodge the shuriken with the cartwheel drop down to splits to duck the sword strike to head:D[/QUOTE]
And teabagging the guy after you cartwheeled kick’d him !
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1065379]why do they need this material? To show off that they can do it? If the argument is for tournament competitions… yes to an extent we can give higher level forms, but only to those with exceptional skills.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
I have no way of proving this, but I believe that once you get passed the “carrot” that Ross was talking about…
…that “Showing Off” is the true purpose of the high-level forms of historical TCMA.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1065384]i agree with what you are saying about advanced physical techniques. but that in itself can be another can of worms. there are those that would say, you never need 1 hand cartwheel to splits.
however i recently saw a judo turney where an escape was made via 1 arm cartwheel :D[/QUOTE]
there is attacks in the cartwheel to splits move.
a cartwheel into splits is an advanced cheerleading move really, but when you include attacks into it, it is a whole different enchilada.
I’ve seen cartwheel kicks used in mma with good results!Cartwheel kick KO for the win!Imagine if you could include the splits and a strike to the cajones following the reverse axe kick across the face? Now that’s some advanced sh1t man!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1065377]In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?
Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that…
as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called “internal” work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.[/QUOTE]
David, let me ask you this, when is the last time in a fight or even sparring, that you did a one handed cartwheel and landed in a split, and if you did, what purpose did it serve?
My major problem with forms is that many of the techniques are just not practical and simply there for show. Maybe it does give them a Kung Fu “flavor” so to speak but aside from breaking a sweat, what is the point? To be honest, it doesn’t take a skilled martial artist to do that, it takes a skilled gymnast, because that is basically what that is.
****, I guess everyone else beat me to that!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1065388]And teabagging the guy after you cartwheeled kick’d him ![/QUOTE]
you a merciless man sanjuro, a merciless man
[QUOTE=MightyB;1065390]I have no way of proving this, but I believe that once you get passed the “carrot” that Ross was talking about…
…that “Showing Off” is the true purpose of the high-level forms of historical TCMA.[/QUOTE]
its for street performance for money not showing off. its also the lowest position in old chinese martial arts hierarchy.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1065392]David, let me ask you this, when is the last time in a fight or even sparring, that you did a one handed cartwheel and landed in a split, and if you did, what purpose did it serve?
My major problem with forms is that many of the techniques are just not practical and simply there for show. Maybe it does give them a Kung Fu “flavor” so to speak but aside from breaking a sweat, what is the point? To be honest, it doesn’t take a skilled martial artist to do that, it takes a skilled gymnast, because that is basically what that is.[/QUOTE]
I never said it was practical and I was speaking to it in context to what is in forms, what is advanced and why advanced sets are not taught to beginners.
there’s plenty of material that I cannot effectively or have not had opportunity to try. I think that’s less important than pondering whether or not I need it or can count on it.
I just posted a video of a guy in an mma fight who cartwheeled a KO to illustrate my point. If the only validity you will give my point is based on what I do, then when is the last time you landed on the moon and took pictures of your fellow astronaut?
It takes body balance to be good at any athletics whatsoever. there are many “gymnastic” moves in martial arts from all cultures.
Anyway, I’m just pointing out that it is there.
Forms are also a mixture of
actual combat techniques
conditioning , flexibility, balance, and yogic like exercises
performance including street performance
Again, with time, people have forgotten that some of the things in sets are not/were never designed to be fighting applicable