Hung Gar Mui Fah Kuen

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Hi all,

With all the discussion of Mui Fah Kuen in Hung Gar earlier, I asked Si-gung about it. He answered some of the finer points and made me learn the set.

The actual name of the set is Sup Gi Mui Fah Kuen. (“10” or cross character plum flower fist) the Sup Gi is why Paul called it a cross pattern (4 directions) set. when I asked him about the Mui Fah, he said it refers to the buterfly palms. Also, in the set I learned, there is a section that attach the angels which is usually associated with mui fah but Si-gung did not mention that.

He said the form was relatively recent but didn’t give a date. He said that the hung gar sifus got together and decided that transition forms were required between Gung Gi Fook Fu and Fu Hok. So this is a simple set but with many deep fighting applications.

I also looked at the plum flower set in John Leong’s book. The set I learned is much more complex then that form and looks very different with the exception of one line.

On a side note, I also asked about the Wu dip Jiang (butterfly palms set). He confirmed that this did not come from his mother but was brought into Hung Gar by Lam Sai Wing during his time at the Ching Mo.

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Hasayfu,

Great info. Thanks for sharing. So that explain the cross pattern than.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

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[This message has been edited by MaFuYee (edited 06-23-2000).]

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Hi MaFuYee, it’s nice to find other hung gar practicioners on here. Could you tell us where you’re from, who’s your sifu, how long you learned, what you learned, etc… Basically a brief bio.

Mui Fa Kuen is also taught in my lineage, Chan Hon Chung, and it is elementary and basic, but does have some very good points too.

I wouldnt really call it a “sup ji” form, but it does pretty much repeat the same basic techniques in 4 directions.

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MaFuYee,

Who was the guy in NY that taught Wu Mui?
Was is Sifu Chau? I was not aware that he had passed on, if we are talking about the same guy.

Peace,

Dave

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Like MaFuYee and Paul said, Mui Fa Kuen looks like a beginners form. Though I said it was more complex then the form in John Leong’s book, it is still limited in the number of techniques and short in overall length especially when you compare it with Fu hok or fook fu.

As Chiu Wai related to me, Gung Gi Fook Fu is the first Hung Gar set. Fu Hok Cern Ying is the second. Anything else taught was added during his lifetime. BTW, he remembers Chan Hon Chong and had good things to say about him.

Several sets were created to bridge fook fu and Fu Hok. These include but are not limited to, plum flower, 3 animals, arrowhand, 10 killing hands, etc.

Also many Sifu’s found that Fook Fu was too long for many students in North America to learn as a first set. So they took one of the intermediate sets and used it as a beginner set.

You’ll notice my Sifu uses Arrowhand as a first set and Si-gung has another set he uses for beginners too. In Hong Kong, however, Fook Fu is the first set.

The way mui fah kuen is used in the Chiu line is to refine basic techniques and introduce new ones. Most notably, some crane movements and the no shadow kick.

As far as calling it a “sup ji” form. That’s what I was told by Si-Gung. Who am I to argue. Until that time, I had never heard it called that either. I think Paul’s set is very close to what I learned since it comes from Chan Hon Chong. It goes in four directions a few times.

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Some good info on here lately. It’s great to get the info from higher up on the ladder, helps with clarity and understanding.

The was I was taught was also with Gung Ji being the first form. Like you said, it can be overwelming for new students, so most of the masters in the last 75 years would teach things like mui fa kuen and lau gar kuen to the beginners before moving into the main forms.

I’m sure all the hung style people on here know that the three main forms are Gung Jee Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Ying, and Tit Sin Kuen. In the old days, this is what they learned, but it should be kept in mind that forms training was of minor importance, with things like nei gung and combat training being of major importance.

I still haven’t been able to find John Leong’s book. Is this the only one he did? Anybody have a copy online, or know where I could get one?

You’ll find lots of similarities between Chan Hon Chung people and Chiu Kao people because Chiu Kao learned the bulk of his medicine and kung fu at Chan’s clinic and school after Lam Sai Wing died. There still are some major differences though, even if you look at some of the Chiu brothers, very different ideas and skill levels.

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Hi Paul,

Some great info indeed! thanks for sharing.

Your notes on the forms and practice matches mine.

Leong sifu’s book is old. My si-hing let me borrow it. I don’t know where you can get it.

Your Chan Hon Chong/Chiu Kao info is interesting :slight_smile: Si-Gung told me the reverse. That CHC studied with CK after LSWs death. Chiu Kao’s father was a famous dit da doctor and that’s where their chinese medicine comes from. This was well established before Chiu Kao met Lam Sai Wing. I won’t say who is right. I wonder if they “shared” a clinic. I didn’t know this stuff so didn’t ask.

As for Chiu Chi Ling and Chiu Wai being different. You need to understand that CCL demos very differently then he performs. I have seen CCL do the real stuff and he is close to his brother.

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For better marketing with their dit da practice, the Chiu family claimed to have their medical knowledge handed down from father to son over many generations. If you ask the older generations, or find a way to ask Chiu Wei (while still letting him save face), I’m sure you’ll get the real story. Nowdays, they are teaching some “Hung Hei Guen’s Hung Gar Tai Chi style”.

Chiu Kao didn’t start learning form Lam Sai Wing until about 1935. That’s when Chiu came back to HK from working overseas. Chiu Kao’s medicine is mostly Lam Sai Wing’s via Chan Hon Chung. Chiu Kao also learned from Lai Ng Sam (Tit Kiu Sam lineage), and probably some of his other sihings. I doubt he learned anything from Lam Jo though.

I doubt that Chiu Kao shared a clinic with LSW or CHC. Chiu Kao was even learning dit da and kuen sut from CHC as late as 1960. I think CHC was head instructor under LSW as far back as 1922? (could be off on the date though). There was a little animosity because Chiu Kao resented having to learn from a younger teacher.

If you have further questions/doubts, you can contact me privately so your sigung’s family can save face.

By the way, do you know what the other 2 Chiu brothers are up to lately?

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Hi Paul,

Thank you for letting the Chiu family save face but your tone is insulting at best.

As for “the passing of Dit Da for many generations” we have pictures of Chiu Kao’s clinic as early as 1951. Chiu Wai probably has proof of his grandfather’s clinic but I’ll admit I hadn’t questioned the authenticity. The dit da is definitely different from Lum Jo which I would consider the Dit Da of Lam Sai Wing. (I have also visited and trained with Lum Jo on several occasions)

If as you claim, it was just marketing, it must be pretty good marketing since he has made a substantial fortune from Dit da.

For the “tai Chi” set, where did you hear this? Chiu Wai invented a set called Yik So Kuen. Preserving Life Fist. It is hung gar movements done at “tai chi” speed. Chiu Wai teaches it to senior citizens and others who don’t want to learn traditional hung gar but want some excercise. He is very straight forward with it’s origins and usage. He is also adamant about NOT calling it tai chi. In calgary, I trained with 40-50 of the senior citizens doing yik so kuen. At the end of the hour long workout, he made them stay in horse stance for 5 minutes. Very few gave up.

You also claim that Chiu Kao learned from Lai Ng Sam. This is really funny. Do the math. Lai Ng Sam came to Hong Kong at age 20 or 22 (depending on who you believe his birthdate is) He was a refugee from communist china and couldn’t make a living with dit da. He is also about the age of Chiu Wai. As Chiu Wai tells the story, Lai Ng Sam went to Chiu Kao’s school. This was AFTER Chiu Wai had already opened his own school. He remembers going back to his father’s school and training Lai Ng Sam and that LNS was only there for about 3 years.

You say you don’t think Chiu Kao learned from Lum Jo but when Lam Sai Wing died and Lum Jo took over his school, he took an ad in the Hong Kong newspaper claiming Chiu Kao (and CHC) where his students since he was the head of LSW’s school. Of course that met with a lot of resistance and caused animosity for some time.

For the group, I apologize for such a long post. I felt I could not let the one sided statements by Paul go unanswered. I will be the first to admit that my information may not be correct, but they were obtained first hand from the people in question.

I also question Paul’s information as they have some obvious inconsitencies with other sources.

I am mostly offended at the air of superiority in his response. I offered direct responses in a supportive manner. Not just passing propaganda in a derogatory tone without stating sources.

Even if it is proven that Paul is correct (which I highly doubt), I would expect Paul to present his findings and knowledge as I did when I had conficting information about statements he made.

'nuff said.

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Sure thing man, sorry for the hard feelings.

There were ads in the Calgary Chinese newspaper for Chiu Wei’s hung gar tai chi which “came directly from Hung Hei Guen”.

The info I had on Chiu Kao and Lai Ng Sam learning together is second hand. Apparently Chiu Chi Ling first agreed with the story years ago, then later changed his mind.

“You say you don’t think Chiu Kao learned from Lum Jo but
when Lam Sai Wing died and Lum Jo took over his school,
he took an ad in the Hong Kong newspaper claiming Chiu
Kao (and CHC) where his students since he was the head of
LSW’s school. Of course that met with a lot of resistance
and caused animosity for some time.”

Of course it would cause animosity. That would be like me joining Wing Lam today and then claiming to be the master of all my new sihings.

It’s the same thing with how Lam Jo tried to trash Wong Fei Hung’s good name a few years ago in HK newspapers. A feeble attempt for publicity at his old age.

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Paul, you said, “It’s the same thing with how Lam Jo tried to trash Wong Fei Hung’s good name a few years ago in HK newspapers. A feeble attempt for publicity at his old age.”

  Fill me in, I haven't this story before.  Why trash WFH?
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i must say i have not responded to msg’s on the board for sometime, however the inverance that has been stated by paul i find astonishing to say the least.
my lineage is two fold, both being chiu kau si gung lineage and also chan hon chung si gung lineage, and in the many years that i have been training, i have never heard such information.

chiu kau si gung started training with lam tsai wing si dai gung in his late 20’s, however it was some years before chan hon chung si gung started, and chan hon chung si gung was only 19 at the time.

chiu kau si gung when returning to his family went via hong kong, was already well versed in both the arts and chinese medicine, and lam tsai wing si dai gung did advance the training in both areas, this also being the same direction that chan hon chung si gung recieved, although his initial teachings where from lam tsai wing si dai gung.

hasayfu you spoke well and you should not appologize for your words, best wishes

regards

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I have an article from a HK newspaper where Lam Jo is basically calling Wong Fei Hung a gangster and a deadbeat. Funny how all of this only comes to light once the rest of the older generation is dead.

Why trash WFH? I don’t know. The only reason I can think of is for Lam Jo to try and get some glory now that all his sihings and Mok Gwai Lan are dead.

No doubt that Chiu Kao learned from LSW, you only have to think about practical matters. How long did he learn from LSW, how much did he absorb, how much did he learn from his sihings, etc.

I don’t even know why I’m trying to prove that Chiu Kao learned from CHC. From what I hear, Chiu Kao had pretty good training ethic and was a really persistant guy. From what I have seen of Chiu family performances, I would just say that their idea of kung fu is different than mine and my sifu’s. Remember, they are primarily body builders, dit da men, and thirdly, kung fu masters.

If you still doubt my version, ask Chiu Wei about when his father was learning Ng Long Bat Gua Kwun. I think you’ll find the proof there.

I agree, no need to apologize on here, just so long as it isnt you and me who are making up stories and stretching the truth.

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Hi, im Si Hing to Hay Say FU and i normally don’t post much either. But since i was there as well (w/ Chiu Wai) i felt i should add to this.

Hi Paul,
“There were ads in the Calgary Chinese newspaper for Chiu Wei’s hung gar tai chi which “came directly from Hung Hei Guen”.”

subs= This could have easily been misinformation. From what we’ve seen w/ our own eyes…he’s got hand outs for this set that he gives to people. Its titled Yik Sau Kuen. He’s says exactly that he’s invented it and doesn’t want it called Tai Chi.

“I have an article from a HK newspaper where Lam Jo is basically calling Wong Fei Hung a gangster and a deadbeat. Funny how all of this only comes to light once the rest of the older generation is dead.”

subs= This is a classic example of how the press makes mistakes w/ misquoting.
Paul you only have 1/2 of the info.
Even our SIFU upon reading that said “it cannot be” In fact the following month the same paper put out a retraction and apology for that mistake. As a reference point, the photo for the article was during Lum Jo’s birthday and Y.C. Wong with his students were kneeling in front of him.

“Why trash WFH? I don’t know. The only reason I can think of is for Lam Jo to try and get some glory now that all his sihings and Mok Gwai Lan are dead.”

subs= Look man, for a person who isn’t even a quarter century old you have alot of gumpshion. Arguably, Lum JO’s is the eldest survivor to LSW. So who the hell are you to say such things? I or the rest of us have no ill will towards you but if you say such things to the wrong crowd you’d get smacked down. Just telling you as a fellow Hung man.

Hi Bean Curd,

“chiu kau si gung started training with lam tsai wing si dai gung in his late 20’s, however it was some years before chan hon chung si gung started, and chan hon chung si gung was only 19 at the time”

subs= This is great info. Thx! Another hand in the deck.

Hmmmmmmmmm I wonder???

“You mean to tell me you never heard of Chinese spare ribs? Well leme show you man!”

Onassis aka subs

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I wasn’t aware that the newspaper twisted Lam Jo’s words. Not my problem though. Maybe the newspaper misprinted Chiu Wei’s advertisement as well?

Good for Chiu Wei though that his dit da practice and seniors classes are having good business.

Maybe for my age I do have a lot of gumption, but from my perspective, and my reliable info, I was correct. Thank you for giving me the other side of the story. If this is such a soft spot with you guys, maybe you should take it up with the newspaper editors, arent they the ones who should take care of proofreading?

Also, what the heck does age have to do with anything? You got some kinda complex/hang up about your age? Doesnt matter how young or old someone is, what counts here is the accuracy of information.

Glad you have no ill towards me, I don’t have any bad intent to “defame” you, Wing Lam, the Chiu boys, or anybody else. I was just presenting the info I got from so called “reliable” sources.

No need to threaten me with a smack down either.

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Hey Paul,

This is really getting far from the topic but just wanted to share. This will be the last on this thread from me. I’ll see all of you on other threads.

You really miss the point of Subitai’s post.

Paul Skrypichayko writes:
"I wasn’t aware that the newspaper twisted Lam Jo’s words. Not my problem though. "

It’s not your problem when the newspaper twists his words. It is your problem when you disrespect your elders by assuming the worst. It’s even more your problem when you propogate such disrespect and claim it as “reliable” without even trying to find out how something so out of character could occur.

“Maybe the newspaper misprinted Chiu Wei’s advertisement as well?”

Since I haven’t seen the ad you are refering to, I can’t say for sure but I would tend to believe the newspaper got it wrong. I’d be a rich man if I got a dollar for every time we did a lion dance and it was printed as Dragon dance in the paper. One time it was a vietnamese paper who requested the “lion” dance.

“Good for Chiu Wei though that his dit da practice and seniors classes are having good business.”

Just to keep the full story out there, his senior class is taught as a community service at no charge.

“Maybe for my age I do have a lot of gumption, but from my perspective, and my reliable info, I was correct.”

Care to reveal your reliable source? Have you cross referenced it with others? From the stuff you posted, it’s only been partly reliable.

“If this is such a soft spot with you guys, maybe you should take it up with the newspaper editors, arent they the ones who should take care of proofreading?”

Again, you miss the point. When discovered, they are corrected. Chiu Wai is interviewed all the time by both English and Chinese media in Calgary. While I was there I saw a special on TV where they interviewed him about Yik So Kuen. (pre recorded)

It’s only a soft spot when a “family member” disrespects others in the family. If you don’t feel we are the same family, you don’t deserve to call CHC Si-Gung.

You owe a lot to all the masters that have allowed you to learn kung fu and be part of a long tradition. Not just your direct line. If you don’t see that, there’s a lot you’ll be missing.

“Doesnt matter how young or old someone is, what counts here is the accuracy of information.”

You are right and half the truth with poor attitude is not very accurate

Look, don’t take this post as trying to change you. That’s up to you. I’m not even trying to teach you something, that’s up to your Sifu. And your actions do not put down others in the Hung family, only yourself. We all know that the Hung history is not perfect. I even want to understand those imperfections. But it should be done with respect and the desire to get at the heart of the traditions.

If you disagree, then we will continue to disagree and we should both move on.

Peace.

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I can only say that it is just politics as usual:

1)Chan, Hoc-Fu and Wu, Gung-Yi(?)[White Crane vs. Wu Tai Chi]

2)Bruce Lee and Wong, Jack-Man [Wing chun vs. Northern Law Horn]

3)William Cheung and Emin Botzepe(sp?) [Wing Chun vs. Ving Tsun]

and now:
4) Chiu Kau vs Chan, Hon-Chong…

 Both have long passed away.  With Hung Kuen making a big resurgence in the UK and USA, how soon will the challenges begin among Hung Gar stylist?

 A long time ago, my si-suk gave me a little hint. "No matter how close you think you are to your sifu. You'll only know what he wants you to know. You'll learn only what he want to teach you..."  It used to be a big joke among the asian students as they watched the non-asians call their sifu as "master" during the 70's and 80's. Too many students looking for someone to call a "master."

 History is manipulated when it affects your "rice bowl."

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 06-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 06-18-2000).]

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Well MEEOOWW! man at first I was very excited to see some info on my lineage…but now I have to wonder how much is hearsay and how much is real.Sigh The fact that Hung Gar is so popular and we are all dedicated practitioners should mean more than all of this “my sifu is better than your sifu” crap. Quite frankly I think we should be sharing the differences and adding these nuances if you will, to all of our bags of treasures. Oh and by the way I’m a 40 yr old woman,who has suprised more than a few men half my age by beating them totally senseless because they made the mistake of thinking age has anything to do with how good of a fighter one is at any age.And just to get back on the subject, plumflower was the second kuan I learned, it has only ten moves done in three directions (east,then north then south) It’s deceptively simple, yet really does have a lot of combat applications.

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When you silly people stop gossiping and name-dropping, you might actually say something worth reading…yawn